Hello all, my DM for some reason has decided that his pet monsters (undead) are all somehow immune to being dazed and stunned. I know this is a stupid rule, because last I checked we were playing 4th edition. I understand that as a DM he has rule 0, but as the players we still have veto power. No one in the group is onboard with fundamentally altering the rules, especially since we have barely even started playing 4th edition on a semi-regular basis. What I need is examples of undead, be it books, movies, or anything of an undead being stunned or dazed. I already have the idea of zombies being stunned in nearly every zombie movie I can think of but it is always good to have more examples. So, little help here please?
Good luck, I think there are plenty of examples of effective stuns. Zombies are easily confused, or rendered temporaliy ineffective by losing body parts for example (one reason I enjoy running zombies as foes is that they can take grim damage, no need to figure out subtle descriptions for hits!)
I would at the very least suggest that those immunities are lifted for any Radiant power.
Remember the DM is free to simply write the immunities into the stat blocks in monster builder and have his toughened up undead as homebrew monsters. That's not even rule 0, it's just encounter design with some homebrew critters. It would be a bit lame if then all the enounters were with stun-immune and daze-immune undead though. As long as the DM has a good mix of foes, and you can use daze/stun on most of them, then that's just adding some difficulty for specific encounters. He could just as easily pick up some stun-immune standards from the MM, but by adding the trait to unliving, he gets the type of challenge he wants with a monster type he likes.
. . . of course if this is his response to some kind of PC vs Encounter arms race (do you have some stun-lock combos in the party?) then it might be better to go to source and work out what has gone wrong, rather than have a nerf on something you've built up over time, and presumably enjoy when it works.
You guys could pool you ingame monies together and buy a magic weapon or two that deal radiant damage?
Just of top of my head that is my idea.
Well, there's the clear case of vampires being held at bay and rendered helpless by various things (light, crosses, garlic, etc.)
It is indeed worthwhile, though, to ask *why* the DM is doing this thing.
What I need is examples of undead, be it books, movies, or anything of an undead being stunned or dazed. I already have the idea of zombies being stunned in nearly every zombie movie I can think of but it is always good to have more examples. So, little help here please?
Zombies and vampires are the most common ones, and those have been stated already. Most other forms of undead aren't common enough in the mainstream. Sunlight, however, is normally at least a deterrent, even if it doesn't actually harm the creature - unless the creature is normally active in daytime. I'm thinking Tooth Fairy here. Granted it's actually hurting her, but it also seems to stun her somewhat. I'll try to find some other, more concrete examples.
Hrm. Is it a stun in Shaun of the dead when they beat that one Zombie to Queen...? In L4D, the undead are attracted to loud noises, light and smells. I haven't played it so I don't know if they can be stunned, but it does show they have a mind. Sure, it doesn't work so hot, but wouldn't that mean they would be even MORE suspectible to stunning?
I suggest branching out into videogames unless someone in the group will bring up the argument that 4th edition is just another videogame. In games, monsters have to be defeated readily enough by the players who might not have the magical mcguffin to save the day, unlike movies.
Another videogame I have not played is the silent hill series. If there are examples of monsters that can be stunned in there, remind the DM of them. Why? Because I think it will help the argument that monsters that can't be stunned can still be scary.
Through, I am not sure if this tactic will work. Is the DM basing his own creations on movies? If so, make the argument that DnD doesn't have creatues work in the traditional method, nor are movie monsters balanaced for combat.
You hit the creature, and his head spins backward. He spends a moment reorienting himself.
You hit the creature in the head, and it reels back from the force, slowly returning to an upright position to face you before continuing its advance.
You use the Power of Pelor to Compel Them.
You knock a skeleton's head off and it rolls around a bit while it tries to catch it and put it back on.
You smash a skeleton's joints out of place, and magic rearranges them into workable shape after a couple of seconds.
You dazzle it with a flash of light, which its old, dead eyes don't deal with so well after being underground for 500 years, causing it to lose 3 seconds.
You knock it down briefly, but it scrambles up in a creepy, inhuman way.
You confuse it with minor illusions or feints, and it spends time flailing stupidly at the air.
You somehow appeal to the last vestiges of humanity which remain within the creature, and it pauses in internal anguish over its existence.
You disrupt the flow of necrotic energies which sustain the creatureand provide normal functioning.
You set it on fire or something, and it freaks out before it realizes it doesn't actually feel anything.
You forcibly spin it around so it's not facing its target, and it makes really slow shuffling steps to turn back.
You weigh down its body with magical energies, preventing its easy motion a bit. Or you freeze its joints briefly. Or you make the feet boil off and it takes a bit to continue moving. Or you electrocute it and that forces its body to spasm. Or you just buzzify their "mind" as normal.
I've seen a couple of movies where a zombie gets shot in the chest, it stumbles back a little bit then tries to wipe the blood. It stares at its hand for a few seconds before finally returning to the fray.
If we want to pull some Resident evil, there are zombies that get thier heads blown off, (well the infected from 4 at least.) they stumble back a bit then the parisite bursts out and the mosnter continues its attack.
I've seen a couple of movies where a zombie gets shot in the chest, it stumbles back a little bit then tries to wipe the blood. It stares at its hand for a few seconds before finally returning to the fray.
If we want to pull some Resident evil, there are zombies that get thier heads blown off, (well the infected from 4 at least.) they stumble back a bit then the parisite bursts out and the mosnter continues its attack.
And of course critical hits are even easier. Does a zombie not die when you shoot it in the head? Are skeletons exceptionally injured when you happen to completely break one of their bones? Is a gelatinous cube not hurt far more when you hit it so hard a large chunk breaks off and is splattered against the wall?
But...'prone' gelatinous cube? Describing that has eluded me.
I've seen a couple of movies where a zombie gets shot in the chest, it stumbles back a little bit then tries to wipe the blood. It stares at its hand for a few seconds before finally returning to the fray.
If we want to pull some Resident evil, there are zombies that get thier heads blown off, (well the infected from 4 at least.) they stumble back a bit then the parisite bursts out and the mosnter continues its attack.
And of course critical hits are even easier. Does a zombie not die when you shoot it in the head? Are skeletons exceptionally injured when you happen to completely break one of their bones? Is a gelatinous cube not hurt far more when you hit it so hard a large chunk breaks off and is splattered against the wall?
But...'prone' gelatinous cube? Describing that has eluded me.
Prone Gelatinous Cube: You smacked it so hard that it's jiggling like a Jello Mold on a paint mixer; it has to take a move action to forcibly settle its motion so it can act normally.
This DM has become very player vs. DM since we started playing 4th edition, not sure why exactly. The no stun/daze rule according to him will apply to all undead, which doesn't make sense to me at all. Undead have always been his favorite monsters, which in 3.5 is the reason that no one played a rogue until later in the game. The problem that the group has with this is that we don't really want to start playing under houserules, especially with the DM not even taking the time to read the DMG past the first two chapters. Even with me begging him to read it fully, this is not the first rule that we as the players didn't care for. At this point his antics are beginning to wear on my patience, but I am going to try and talk to him one final time giving all the helpful examples above. If he is unwilling to listen to his players then I think it may be time to for me to put on the DM hat and make my own game.
This DM has become very player vs. DM since we started playing 4th edition, not sure why exactly. The no stun/daze rule according to him will apply to all undead, which doesn't make sense to me at all. Undead have always been his favorite monsters, which in 3.5 is the reason that no one played a rogue until later in the game. The problem that the group has with this is that we don't really want to start playing under houserules, especially with the DM not even taking the time to read the DMG past the first two chapters. Even with me begging him to read it fully, this is not the first rule that we as the players didn't care for. At this point his antics are beginning to wear on my patience, but I am going to try and talk to him one final time giving all the helpful examples above. If he is unwilling to listen to his players then I think it may be time to for me to put on the DM hat and make my own game.
I would like to point out that I myself have not read the DMG from cover to cover. But i also have understood the mechanics and the rules of the game for a while.
I do encourage you to put your DM hat on though. Or maybe, just let him know that your group decided not go with his undead crappy rules.
The DMG thing is less of a problem, for some reason he just can't seem to ever be on the same page as everyone else. It's doesn't help that he is a little clueless, always seems to think we as players are looking to gain some sort of advantage. I'm no power gamer, but sometimes I find myself pushing up the power curve out of necessity.
This guy has been DMing for over 20 years and yet it seems as if he never learned how to play the game, or at least the basic idea of what the game is supposed to be. I don't know about you but to me it is supposed to be about escaping the day to day. Being able to get together with friends having some laughs and telling a cool fantasy story with dungeons, dragons and ancient magic. Which when I started playing with him thats what he was all about, but as he became more comfortable with the group and had us all hooked in, he went two faced on us and tossed any inkling of story away. Now we seem to just focus on mechanics, and not the story. If it isn't in the rules specifically stated there is a problem for him, I don't know maybe he and the group just don't mesh well.
Oh well, guess I will break out my old copy of return to the temple of elemental evil and start converting it over to 4th. This has been a big help thanks for listening to the rant, and I will still try my last ditched effort to get him on the same page as us.
I am and have also been in this group for awhile now. Honestly the problem is with the DM and on the 3rd ed forums I posted some of his BS for laughs. Some people didn't believe. It basically works like this. We know how a rule works, if it hinders him having undead beat any character not played by one of his current favorite people to death he rules it as bad or against the rules. If its an open to inturpritation rule he rules however is most favorable for his creatures. This is the way the rule works untill the players figure out how to counter that then it becomes whatever is advantagous for the NPC's. Add in a couple inability to enteract with anyone or anything and it essentially becomes wargaming with one hand tied behind your back.
Other neat things he's done is ruled all damage from the same element even if from different sources stacks together to overcome damage reduction for that round. You get hit with 3 fireballs, and have fire resist 10, you don't take it off each fireball, no you take 100 damage from fireballs and can take off your 10. I'm also fairly sure that he doesn't realize that undead have a vulnerability to radient, If he does then when I played a 4th ed cleric with a radiant at will then everyone of his monsters had 40 or so more HP than what they should have, Or he decided that undead being his most loved critters are ruled out of it.
I am and have also been in this group for awhile now. Honestly the problem is with the DM and on the 3rd ed forums I posted some of his BS for laughs. Some people didn't believe. It basically works like this. We know how a rule works, if it hinders him having undead beat any character not played by one of his current favorite people to death he rules it as bad or against the rules. If its an open to inturpritation rule he rules however is most favorable for his creatures. This is the way the rule works untill the players figure out how to counter that then it becomes whatever is advantagous for the NPC's. Add in a couple inability to enteract with anyone or anything and it essentially becomes wargaming with one hand tied behind your back.
Other neat things he's done is ruled all damage from the same element even if from different sources stacks together to overcome damage reduction for that round. You get hit with 3 fireballs, and have fire resist 10, you don't take it off each fireball, no you take 100 damage from fireballs and can take off your 10. I'm also fairly sure that he doesn't realize that undead have a vulnerability to radient, If he does then when I played a 4th ed cleric with a radiant at will then everyone of his monsters had 40 or so more HP than what they should have, Or he decided that undead being his most loved critters are ruled out of it.
Those are the typs of things that stopped my wife from playing until she heard I was going to DM, so I understand your issues guys. just wished I could be of more help. I say you guys kick him to the curb. But don't lose a frien over a RP game.
Yeah I get that. Did quit playing with him for about 10 months unfortunately D&D is his main recreational activity, so if we quit and take the group we are essentially ending all social life he has.
Yeah I get that. Did quit playing with him for about 10 months unfortunately D&D is his main recreational activity, so if we quit and take the group we are essentially ending all social life he has.
It doesn't sound very healthy. perhaps he needs to quit for a while, and find more things to do.
I think your DM is full of it. Undead are not immune to daze or stunning in 4e. They were in 3.5e but not 4e. After looking through my MM all I see for immunities is disease and poison.
So this isn't about the specific problems with undead. It seems to me this DM wants to play a different kind of game to the OP, and that difference is popping up in rules interpretations and house rules.
This is a pattern that you will not change by arguing over a specific rule. Even if you win this argument, it's just chipping away at differences in approach, and the benefit you will get might not be worth the amount of friction it causes betweeen you and the DM.
Now the DM might benefit from a bit of introspection about why he plays D&D and what he's trying to get from being the DM in the game. Unless you are a very close friend, it will be difficult for you to initiate that.
In the meantime, I'd suggest either:
a) Accept the DM's approach, treat the houseruling as part of the environment the characters must deal with, and make the best game you can out of the situation.
b) Suggest an alternative, such as playing a pre-written module, or someone else DM-ing (presumably yourself, or someone else who would like to DM in a style closer to what you'd prefer).
I think your DM is full of it. Undead are not immune to daze or stunning in 4e. They were in 3.5e but not 4e. After looking through my MM all I see for immunities is disease and poison.
Actually in 3.5 they weren't immune to daze but it was incredibly hard to find something that would daze them(with the immunity to fort saves and mind-affecting).
To the OP: Try to get him to realize it's not a competitive game it's a co-operative game. If he won't DM yourself. If you can maybe pass it off as a break for him, that way you don't alienate him or anything.
unfortunately D&D is his main recreational activity, so if we quit and take the group we are essentially ending all social life he has.
This is *not* your problem. If he's a friend beyond playing D&D with him, invite him to participate in non-D&D activities. If he's not your friend, he's just some guy you play with? Then who cares?
So this isn't about the specific problems with undead. It seems to me this DM wants to play a different kind of game to the OP, and that difference is popping up in rules interpretations and house rules.
This is a pattern that you will not change by arguing over a specific rule. Even if you win this argument, it's just chipping away at differences in approach, and the benefit you will get might not be worth the amount of friction it causes betweeen you and the DM.
Now the DM might benefit from a bit of introspection about why he plays D&D and what he's trying to get from being the DM in the game. Unless you are a very close friend, it will be difficult for you to initiate that.
In the meantime, I'd suggest either:
a) Accept the DM's approach, treat the houseruling as part of the environment the characters must deal with, and make the best game you can out of the situation.
b) Suggest an alternative, such as playing a pre-written module, or someone else DM-ing (presumably yourself, or someone else who would like to DM in a style closer to what you'd prefer).
What the DM wants is a captive audience to his story telling about what happens with the game world he is half heartedly cribbing from various sources. He wants us to occasionally provide "neato ideas" though our pc's to the overall on-ward monolouge drone of his couple of Elminsteresque NPC's saving the world from his otherwise invincible uberbad npc's after the PC's get their arses kicked by said uberbad npc's. Thats his approach, thats the root of the issue. The PC's are allowed to defeat defeat underlings and henchmen of the baddies, the main baddies always get away, get resurected, or get brought back as uber-undead, after their failure or defeat. Its rather irritating to after my playing with this group on and off for around 38 months roughly for roughly 7 hours per week to have realized that its utterly impossible for our characters to accomplish anything at all to make a difference in the waves of undead, or demons that constantly overrun his world.
B. Moduels, we've sort of done moduels with him, moduels and adventure arcs that we begin to do get most of any story line or interaction in them interposed to tie into the neverending war with the undead, (think bloodwar of living versus dead but more unending not sure how the living ever get fed with undead everywhere always) He won't let anyone else DM we've offered, some of the people involved also occasionally DM other groups or play other games, we've got 4 regular players who occasionally game together with one other guy one of the other players DMing, things run alot more smoothly then. The main reason/reasons why we play there at all anymore is that he purchases every WoTC book with-in 2 weeks of its publication, ande that he has a well located room, without family or roommate distractions. Everyone else either has far less optimal areas to play, or is inconvient to get to from the others locations.
Honestly we had the same complaints with 3.5 that we do now, he was initially better with 4th because he hadn't converted his stuff over or decided how he wanted his world to go. When we went to 4th to start with he was just running the occasional 1 shot built moduels at low level so ther was a glimmer of hope now its worse getting worse again..
He won't let anyone else DM we've offered,
"Won't let"?
He's a bad GM. Playing with him is not fun. If he doesn't want to play in a game he isn't running, *don't play with him*.
Oh yeah there is also glaring DM favoritism in various things. We aren't sure exactly what they are based on other than perhaps him having vague romantic dreams about the players mother even though he has no shot. Its at the point where some people in the group can just freeform do whatever they want without a clue as to weather or not the rules support the character doing that, and others are restricted to players handbook classes with limited spells within the players handbook in the same game. It has been so bad that a ray based sorcerer/rogue in 3.5 was told "You can't use anymore touch attack spells because you hit the monsters with them to often, you have to use a sword" A couple of weeks later in the same party another player at 12th level rolled the dice on his first attack and hit ac 47, he'd been playing 8 months at this point, he still didn't know how to calculate his attack bonus and simply had been coming up with numbers, when told the previous week that he added in his stregnth he added in the whole thing. Because he is one of the DM favorites this number of ac 47 on a non crit wasn't questioned by the DM. It was another player who said isn't that a crit. The player said The dice is a 14. He continued playing the rest of the seesion with a +23 from his entire stregnth ability score at level 12 for the rest of the session. While another character in the same group was told that as a rogue sorcorer he had to go into melee against undead he couldn't backstab because his rays hit to often.
Its simply wrong with the things that have been going on over and over in this game. Most of the players that actually know how to read are giving up on the game with him and looking for other alternatives.
Its simply wrong with the things that have been going on over and over in this game. Most of the players that actually know how to read are giving up on the game with him and looking for other alternatives.
And that's probably the best thing you can do.
Abjure undead: a baseline ability that only works on undead, dazes them.
The main reason/reasons why we play there at all anymore is that he purchases every WoTC book with-in 2 weeks of its publication, ande that he has a well located room, without family or roommate distractions. Everyone else either has far less optimal areas to play, or is inconvient to get to from the others locations.
Ah! So you're little better than leeches. Is that what you're saying?
Because if you're just using him for his books & space, then what makes you think you've got any right to complain about the crappy game he's giving you?
Ah! So you're little better than leeches. Is that what you're saying?
Because if you're just using him for his books & space, then what makes you think you've got any right to complain about the crappy game he's giving you?
Not really Weevil and I do lots of real life stuff for him that almost allows him to be functional member of society, The tools, area, and minatures that should be a set-up for a completely awesome game are why we have been keeping up with a completely terrible one that occasionally, about 1 session in 4 shows some glimers of hope.
Wow a bad group indeed. Dosen't sound like he is willing to listen to reason. The best way to get a DM to finally "get it" is to stop showing up. When he is sitting there and no other players are there, he might be willing to listen to reason.
As players you don't have to put up with this. The DM rules with Party rights.
I think your best solution for both you and weevil is to leave the game. foget him, forget his books, and just start playing elsewhere.
IT sucks, but it isn't the end of the world. I've had to quit games and ask people to leave others. Dungeons and Dragons is a social game meant to be fun for EVERYONE at the table, not just some at the table.
Not really Weevil and I do lots of real life stuff for him that almost allows him to be functional member of society, The tools, area, and minatures that should be a set-up for a completely awesome game are why we have been keeping up with a completely terrible one that occasionally, about 1 session in 4 shows some glimers of hope.
Sorry, but I disbelieve.
Afterall, YOU told me(us) that you stick around A) because of his stuff, B) because of the convenient place to play. Nowhere was friendship indicated.....
Now let's pretend his D&D stuff vanished. Honestly, would you still be there for him?
For me he is a friend, I don't know about Gagnrath, he is sorta bitter about how many times the DM has totally ruined his characters with curses, or starting him surrounded by enemies with no gear to speak of and tied up, as a wizard. He is my friend, and I like him as a friend, but at this point not at all as a DM. My patience have grown thin over time, and this for me is the last straw, too many times have I allowed him to force me into playing under rules I didn't care for.
For a few months at one point he started using facing rules, which in 3.5 facing makes rogues more than gods. We as a group didn't care for this rule, he knew that, we told him. As a group we continued to play under the rules because he is our friend, and we didn't want to just walk away from a game that we all put alot of effort into. Now, he did learn after the party rogue dealt well over 200 points at 12th level with the facing rule, and a shortsword of speed. I have continued to play with him for all this time because he is a friend and unfortunately that is all I really have in common with him. As a group we quit on him for about a month, then he called us up and said that he was willing to listen to what we had to say. All was fine for about a month, then he started back up again.
I'm at a loss at this point, and worst of all I'm tired of trying to get him to change his ways or allow someone else to take over for a while. He is starting to sour me against the entire game, which I refuse to allow. So, again thanks for listening to the (long) usual rant, and I guess tomorrow when we meet to play I'm going to tell him that I quit.
We'll see how it goes tomorrow, allready promised to help him out in real life on monday. I'm not sure if friend is the right word for the way I view him in real life. More as charity case, ala my acting as henry higgins in Pygmalion. I don't mean to be however had it not been for D&D I likely would have only met the guy through being handed food through a drive up window. As it is he has become something of a project to create a better life for him.
Oh yeah there is also glaring DM favoritism in various things. We aren't sure exactly what they are based on other than perhaps him having vague romantic dreams about the players mother even though he has no shot. Its at the point where some people in the group can just freeform do whatever they want without a clue as to weather or not the rules support the character doing that, and others are restricted to players handbook classes with limited spells within the players handbook in the same game. It has been so bad that a ray based sorcerer/rogue in 3.5 was told "You can't use anymore touch attack spells because you hit the monsters with them to often, you have to use a sword" A couple of weeks later in the same party another player at 12th level rolled the dice on his first attack and hit ac 47, he'd been playing 8 months at this point, he still didn't know how to calculate his attack bonus and simply had been coming up with numbers, when told the previous week that he added in his stregnth he added in the whole thing. Because he is one of the DM favorites this number of ac 47 on a non crit wasn't questioned by the DM. It was another player who said isn't that a crit. The player said The dice is a 14. He continued playing the rest of the seesion with a +23 from his entire stregnth ability score at level 12 for the rest of the session. While another character in the same group was told that as a rogue sorcorer he had to go into melee against undead he couldn't backstab because his rays hit to often.
Its simply wrong with the things that have been going on over and over in this game. Most of the players that actually know how to read are giving up on the game with him and looking for other alternatives.
You've described what sounds like a very broken game, at least in "roll game" mechanics terms which is a shame because 4E does this quite well.
I would alter my previous advice, and suggest you would be better off simply looking elsewhere for a game that you enjoy more.
Your description makes the DM sound like he has "control issues". Whether or not that's the case is difficult to tell from one side of the story, but if this is the case, and for some reason you still want him to be in the group, it's a simple fix:
1) Don't play at his house
2) Don't use his books
3) Don't let him be DM
I've never had a situation like this. If I encountered it and decided I had some reason to keep playing with this DM, I think I'd just run away every time I encountered undead. Since the undead in his game are essentially unbeatable, that's what my actual character would do, so I'd be role playing it. Basically it would be "zombies? skeletons? RUN AWAY!!!"
"We go back to the inn and kick back for a while."
"I flirt with the waitress."
"Oh, zombies are attacking the town? We RUN AWAY some more! Where's the next town?"
I actually like brassbaboons plan might try that.
Or try to find a way to become undead yourselves?
Been there tried that. " All undead are evil, I don't allow evil characters in my campaign," Direct quote of the worst Dm ever. If you become evil for longer than 1 session you give your character sheet to the DM for you to become an npc. If you do something That messes up his planned story line badly enough he either god rules it into not happening, demands your character sheet, or both. Destroying busy body wizards that kill characters for not following the story line get your character sheet taken. The wizard brought back by the god of magic and everything that might have been collateral damage brought back.
He won't let anyone else DM we've offered, some of the people involved also occasionally DM other groups or play other games, we've got 4 regular players who occasionally game together with one other guy one of the other players DMing, things run alot more smoothly then. The main reason/reasons why we play there at all anymore is that he purchases every WoTC book with-in 2 weeks of its publication, ande that he has a well located room, without family or roommate distractions. Everyone else either has far less optimal areas to play, or is inconvient to get to from the others locations.
This is what really gets me about the situation. I don't understand how he won't let you DM a game.
"Hey dude, I am not playing your Friday game anymore. Also, in an unrelated matter guys I will be DMing a game on Saturday nights at my place and you are all invited (Include crappy DM)." What can he do about this? Barge into your house and burn your books, then smash your dice?
Either his game is worth playing thanks to its location and huge library of books, or it isn't worth it because of how crappy it is run. There really isn't anything anyone on the internet can do to fix it for you.
You say "Hey quit sucking" and if he does you are set. If not, then you leave. Simple as that. (I'd suggest you be a little more polite though)
You say "Hey quit sucking" and if he does you are set. If not, then you leave. Simple as that. (I'd suggest you be a little more polite though)
Yup, this guy's right. This DM started out sounding okay, but more and more he sounds like he's a bit of a wreck. Get him to get his act together, or drop him. Make clear his options to him. If he's willing to learn to be better at it, do stick with him as long as it seems like he's putting in the effort and honestly wants to get better.
But if he honestly doesn't think there's a problem with his methodology and has no intentions of improving it, you gotta get out. This isn't what D&D is about.
This is what really gets me about the situation. I don't understand how he won't let you DM a game.
"Hey dude, I am not playing your Friday game anymore. Also, in an unrelated matter guys I will be DMing a game on Saturday nights at my place and you are all invited (Include crappy DM)." What can he do about this? Barge into your house and burn your books, then smash your dice?
Either his game is worth playing thanks to its location and huge library of books, or it isn't worth it because of how crappy it is run. There really isn't anything anyone on the internet can do to fix it for you.
You say "Hey quit sucking" and if he does you are set. If not, then you leave. Simple as that. (I'd suggest you be a little more polite though)
I thought from the quote listed above that it was clear that some of the rest of us DM in other games on our own. The letting others DM was, hey how would you feel about someone else DMing here? we'll let you play this was after he threw a hissy fit about no one appriciating how much time he spent preparing things and so forth. We also won;t let the other players play there, even if they aren't using his books. He has no interest whatsoever in not being DM. Since transportation is somewhat limited and his location is the most centrally located for everyone, as well as everywhere else having alot of non-players living there, and or crying babies, the initial hope was playing there would be allowed.
Anyways weevil was sick at our seesion so missed our game today. The two non-readering ((removed)) tweedle twins, (age 19 and 15) got very close to dying some of the other players tried to give them advice to help them live which made them raise the level of their hissy fit, the session ended with with them storming out after threatening to kill non retarded people, their mom who the DM is sweet on storming out crying because people put them down (semi true after trying to help them and they getting mad about it.) and antagonized them (not so true if you are going to whine about dying and using nothing but melee basic attacks and usually moving badly you need for someone to help you) and the DM laughing at their ((removed)). So now everything is llikely to get slightly better because the ((removed)) twins aren't going to be around. WE only played for about 3/4ths of one encounter before we had tweedle twin flip-out so nothing serious to complain about on the DM front this week we'll give next week a try without ((removed)) twins.
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... he threw a hissy fit about no one appriciating how much time he spent preparing things and so forth...
Then you tell him that while you do appreciate the time he's spent preparing, you do not appreciate the results of the time he's spent preparing.
I thought from the quote listed above that it was clear that some of the rest of us DM in other games on our own. The letting others DM was, hey how would you feel about someone else DMing here? we'll let you play this was after he threw a hissy fit about no one appriciating how much time he spent preparing things and so forth. We also won;t let the other players play there, even if they aren't using his books. He has no interest whatsoever in not being DM. Since transportation is somewhat limited and his location is the most centrally located for everyone, as well as everywhere else having alot of non-players living there, and or crying babies, the initial hope was playing there would be allowed.
Anyways weevil was sick at our seesion so missed our game today. The two non-readering retard tweedle twins, (age 19 and 15) got very close to dying some of the other players tried to give them advice to help them live which made them raise the level of their hissy fit, the session ended with with them storming out after threatening to kill non retarded people, their mom who the DM is sweet on storming out crying because people put them down (semi true after trying to help them and they getting mad about it.) and antagonized them (not so true if you are going to whine about dying and using nothing but melee basic attacks and usually moving badly you need for someone to help you) and the DM laughing at their retardation. So now everything is llikely to get slightly better because the retard twins aren't going to be around. WE only played for about 3/4ths of one encounter before we had tweedle twin flip-out so nothing serious to complain about on the DM front this week we'll give next week a try without retard twins.
1- So like I said, either the game is worth it, and you need to shut up and deal. OR the game is not worth it, and you tell him what to change. If he does, you are set to go. If not walk. You have evaluated it, and told him what to change. He did not. You guess the next step.
2- This sounds like a whole ton of RL problems that are totally unrelated to the game itself. I'd work this out way before I tried to play DND with this group.
It seems like DMs are always throwing fits or putting in completely broken house rules.
There should be a DMs guide pamphlet the expounds the importance of not messing with the rules in order to run a fair game and tips for keeping the players entertained and not abusing them just because they are the DM.
At some point, we the DM's have to make a call, and stand by it, rain or shine.
The Player Veto the OP suggested is to walk. I have a Rules Lawyer at my table, who likes to do the same sorts of things this DM is doing. Usually, some discussion ensues at a later time, and we bash it out, and life is good again.
Yes, 4e lends itself well to roll-playing, but it's better than 3.5 in a lot of ways. 3.5 can get nasty-ugly in terms of sheer volume. Sometimes, I yearn for the relative simplicity of AD&D and 2E.
By the way, note to the OP and his buddy: Unless your DM is lacking an internet connection, he has as much right to read what you're saying about him as you have to write it...
As well as just as much right to get offended at you over it. Most people with intelligence scores over three can tell when people describe them in detail. Your whining here could create more probelms for you than they solve at the table.
Now for the DM, whom I'm sure has at least seen this thread: Listen to them, and bring back the narrative that includes your players. Without them, you might as well just write a book.
I am no expert in these matters, but I think if you refer to the guy not as a friend, but a charity case, there are other issues at stake.
Firstly, there appear to be some...Personal matters of his that might not belong on a public forum, given your language.
Secondly, if your intent is to socialize, find a way to socialize outside of DnD. Board or card games might do in a pinch.
Third, leave the game already. It appears to be making you stressed, and prepping for a game some people hate is eating into the DM's time. Lose-lose.
He has an internet connection, Wevil and I set it up for him, wevil helped him sign up a wizards username and password. I regularly remove spyware and viri that he gets from downloading necrophilic tenacle porn. He can probably see this but I rather doubt that he can respond since he would have had to redo his profile after the changes in the forum. He typically doesn't look however unless one of us bitches enough to make him seek outside opinion, or is trying to get his jollies off.
I am no expert in these matters, but I think if you refer to the guy not as a friend, but a charity case, there are other issues at stake.
Firstly, there appear to be some...Personal matters of his that might not belong on a public forum, given your language.
Secondly, if your intent is to socialize, find a way to socialize outside of DnD. Board or card games might do in a pinch.
Third, leave the game already. It appears to be making you stressed, and prepping for a game some people hate is eating into the DM's time. Lose-lose.
to the first part, In part yes there is a rather complete lack of respect at this point for the DM and another faction of the players in the gaming group. Part of it is the fact they are in a completely different socio-economic strata part of it is because they littlerally suck the fun out of the game.
Second, About half of the players don't want to socialize with the other half, however they are there and want to play as well. The 4 or 5 players (not all really regular players with the DM but at enough sessions overall to count as part of the group) who are the longer standing members of the group are fairly tired of the DM's actions. These players socialize together without the DM and also play games excluding the DM fairly regularly, however that he lives alone and is centrally located make playing there far more convienant than any of the other possible nearby venues.
Third because of having played there long term, occasional fun games, and that when one or two of us have left in the past we get calls from the DM regularly begging us to come back we've not fully done that. I left for 8 months from thanksgiving of last year to mid july of this. Others have as well for varing periods of time. We will probably do so again and perhaps permanatly. At this point the central group of players have more or less set certain conditions they have to be met for us to continue playing, and the timeline for them to be met if not we all quit.. Loosing the non reading Loyd and Harry over the weekend was a big part because they grind the game to a halt no matter what as things get to them. Thats what happens though when you have people who in real life have an INT score of 4. It was especially bad since the DM wants to date their mother who was also playing with us of late and is a former player of his last group which blew up for similiar issues.
Short bit of semi related disclosure I play in 4 gaming groups a monthly battletech group, A Bi-weekly D&D group that gets on well and has no issues, this group that meets weekly and has huge issues, and the core of this group that gets together on average ever other week to play a different campaign at one of us switches out DMing and has no issues. Since one of the groups includes a majority of the same players and it doesn't have issues, we tend to think that all the issues are because of the DM in that group while only probably 80% of them are directly attributable to that.
Just drop the game already... seriously.
Just drop the game already... seriously.
No No No I am enjoying this. I have been reading this from the start. Its a laugh riot. The bad DMing, the players coming here to complain and make fun of the guy, while at the same time not being able to say this stuff to his face. Makes me laugh
I should get a digital voice recorder for making mp3 add-on attached notes. The stuff that gets said to his face is hilarious and amazingly demeaning. When the typical session starts why Hey DM have you managed to find time to read the DMG yet and goes downhill to personal attacks on the lack of bathing (true the guy hasn't taken a shower in years you can see centimeter thick coatings of dust on his bathtub and shower curtain.) and sanity. It is close to a laugh riot. Its also a measure of insanity and oddess on the players which doesn't say to much about us though either.
He sounds like a typical DM and these guys treat him as such.
There really should be a manual for teaching how to DM properly w/o pissing off your players. The DMG is not very good at this. It has rules but it should have a huge specific list of dos and don'ts for keeping players happy and running entertaining games.
He sounds like a typical DM and these guys treat him as such.
There really should be a manual for teaching how to DM properly w/o pissing off your players. The DMG is not very good at this. It has rules but it should have a huge specific list of dos and don'ts for keeping players happy and running entertaining games.
Well it does acutally. It talks about types of players and there likes and dislikes and how to make them happy. The DMG can't help a DM if he is drunk with power
This whole situation is like one big sit-com , I love it. 
I vote for more "episodes" of this Epic Gaming Group.
This whole situation is like one big sit-com , I love it.
I vote for more "episodes" of this Epic Gaming Group.
While I don't support the idea of simply observing the situation rather than suggesting how to remedy it quickly, I do suggest that if the situation isn't remedied, its occurances are documented in a much more aesthetically pleasing manner. So the other people who, y'know, do wanna see it can read it better.
This thread reminds me of the WoW parody Youtube series "The Guild". There is a certain amount of humor here, although it's mostly the type of humor that depends on denigrating and demeaning other people, so not my favorite sort of humor.
The whole situation sounds surreal. It has been my experience in most things that there are at least two sides to every story.
In my world life is too short to put up with intentional misery. Geez dude, by your own admission you've got several games going outside of this one situation. So just stop already. Think how much brighter and more pleasant your life would be if you didn't feel you had to come onto a public internet forum and viciously attack your own DM repeatedly. That can't be good for your karmic balance.
I hate to say it, but it sure sounds like you get some sort of charge out of the situation, and so does the rest of the group. From what you describe it almost sounds like an abusive relationship, and to me the DM is not the obvious prime abuser.
Run away. You don't need this. It's not healhty.
Although it is humorous to read, in a creepy, slimy, need to go take a shower afterwards sort of way.
This thread reminds me of the WoW parody Youtube series "The Guild". There is a certain amount of humor here, although it's mostly the type of humor that depends on denigrating and demeaning other people, so not my favorite sort of humor.
The whole situation sounds surreal. It has been my experience in most things that there are at least two sides to every story.
In my world life is too short to put up with intentional misery. Geez dude, by your own admission you've got several games going outside of this one situation. So just stop already. Think how much brighter and more pleasant your life would be if you didn't feel you had to come onto a public internet forum and viciously attack your own DM repeatedly. That can't be good for your karmic balance.
I hate to say it, but it sure sounds like you get some sort of charge out of the situation, and so does the rest of the group. From what you describe it almost sounds like an abusive relationship, and to me the DM is not the obvious prime abuser.
Run away. You don't need this. It's not healhty.
Although it is humorous to read, in a creepy, slimy, need to go take a shower afterwards sort of way.
Yes, this.
Man, how disgusting.
It amuses me (in a dark, cynical way) that you two have come on here, whining incessantly and b*tching about your DM... and yet maintain that HE'S the one without social graces. When pressed about doing your whining to his face, you then brag about how demeaning you are to him... along with mocking the mentally disabled. (And if they're not genuinely "retarded" then it's offensive for a whole different reason.) Charity case? Get over yourselves. If you're the poster children for being socially well-adjusted, we're all in more trouble than we realize.
As for your DM, he clearly does have some problems. I daresay his biggest, though, is his continued association with such "friends" as you guys. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.
D&D is a game, nothing more. If you don't like his game, you should have left. If he's always been like this (and since your accusations have varied from "he used to have story, now he has no story" all the way to "he just uses us as a vehicle for his story", it's tough to get a clear picture), you should have left long ago. Coming on here and performing character-assassination (because who needs to know what his personal preferences are, tentacles or not? How petty and childish to bring that up) isn't dealing with the issues you have, and wanting this community to validate your behavior... I'm appalled.
And I include both of you, because even though one of you is far more offensive, the other isn't calling him out or defending someone they apparently do consider an absent "friend."
You were given advice, the only advice you could be given, at the very beginning of this thread. Clearly you didn't want advice, you wanted to whine and be validated. At least you kept it up long enough for people to realize what this actually is.
And that's all I have to say on the matter. Not what you clearly hoped for, but certainly what you've earned.
I should get a digital voice recorder for making mp3 add-on attached notes. The stuff that gets said to his face is hilarious and amazingly demeaning. When the typical session starts why Hey DM have you managed to find time to read the DMG yet and goes downhill to personal attacks on the lack of bathing (true the guy hasn't taken a shower in years you can see centimeter thick coatings of dust on his bathtub and shower curtain.) and sanity. It is close to a laugh riot. Its also a measure of insanity and oddess on the players which doesn't say to much about us though either.
Wait, you guys spend the whole session picking on him, and making fun of the two mentally slower young kids in the group? No wonder the DM puts no effort in and runs a crappy game.
I am gonna go ahead and change my advice to "DM, drop these crappy players, and go find some people who treat you with an ounce of respect. You don't need to pull the I'm the DM I demand respect card, which is total bull and probably why your games haven't run the best up till now. But you do need to pull the 'I am a person, treat me as such' card on these players before you throw them out."
After reading the whole thread I've come to two conclusions...
1) This can't be serious. It has to be a joke.
2) If #1 is proven false, well thank gods this dysfunctional group is together, lowers the risk of the rest of us stumbling in to one of them and inviting them to play.
Advice, if this whole thing isn't a big put on of the most blatantly stereotypical bad D&D group ever, its called "self inflicted wound". You brought in on yourselves by still playing. Wash your hands of it (perhaps literally) and get on with your lives.
We'll see how it goes tomorrow, allready promised to help him out in real life on monday. I'm not sure if friend is the right word for the way I view him in real life. More as charity case, ala my acting as henry higgins in Pygmalion. I don't mean to be however had it not been for D&D I likely would have only met the guy through being handed food through a drive up window. As it is he has become something of a project to create a better life for him.
If you don't really treat him as a friend but more of a charity case, why help him? The way you phrase this sounds as though he is some kind of social wreck and you are his hero/psychiatrist?
He has an internet connection, Wevil and I set it up for him, wevil helped him sign up a wizards username and password. I regularly remove spyware and viri that he gets from downloading necrophilic tenacle porn. He can probably see this but I rather doubt that he can respond since he would have had to redo his profile after the changes in the forum. He typically doesn't look however unless one of us bitches enough to make him seek outside opinion, or is trying to get his jollies off.
Could you be any more hurtful? If he could see this, have you considered that maybe this is the reason he is DMing badly for you? If I were him and I saw this thread, I would probably kill your character, raise him to life, kill him again and then ask him to leave the game. It's a wonder he hasn't done this yet.
I should get a digital voice recorder for making mp3 add-on attached notes. The stuff that gets said to his face is hilarious and amazingly demeaning. When the typical session starts why Hey DM have you managed to find time to read the DMG yet and goes downhill to personal attacks on the lack of bathing (true the guy hasn't taken a shower in years you can see centimeter thick coatings of dust on his bathtub and shower curtain.) and sanity. It is close to a laugh riot. Its also a measure of insanity and oddess on the players which doesn't say to much about us though either.
This sounds like a really abusive relationship. You demean and insult him and you LAUGH at him? Have you wondered what it would be like if you were the DM that gets constantly laughed at? This is becoming more and more like a abusive relationship instead of the "charity project" you claimed you were doing for him.
Ah! So you're little better than leeches. Is that what you're saying?
Because if you're just using him for his books & space, then what makes you think you've got any right to complain about the crappy game he's giving you?
I totally agree with CCS. Seriously, stop bitching about your problems already, you're painting a really ugly and disgusting picture that nobody wants to see.
Man, how disgusting.
It amuses me (in a dark, cynical way) that you two have come on here, whining incessantly and b*tching about your DM... and yet maintain that HE'S the one without social graces. When pressed about doing your whining to his face, you then brag about how demeaning you are to him... along with mocking the mentally disabled. (And if they're not genuinely "retarded" then it's offensive for a whole different reason.) Charity case? Get over yourselves. If you're the poster children for being socially well-adjusted, we're all in more trouble than we realize.
As for your DM, he clearly does have some problems. I daresay his biggest, though, is his continued association with such "friends" as you guys. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.
D&D is a game, nothing more. If you don't like his game, you should have left. If he's always been like this (and since your accusations have varied from "he used to have story, now he has no story" all the way to "he just uses us as a vehicle for his story", it's tough to get a clear picture), you should have left long ago. Coming on here and performing character-assassination (because who needs to know what his personal preferences are, tentacles or not? How petty and childish to bring that up) isn't dealing with the issues you have, and wanting this community to validate your behavior... I'm appalled.
And I include both of you, because even though one of you is far more offensive, the other isn't calling him out or defending someone they apparently do consider an absent "friend."
You were given advice, the only advice you could be given, at the very beginning of this thread. Clearly you didn't want advice, you wanted to whine and be validated. At least you kept it up long enough for people to realize what this actually is.
And that's all I have to say on the matter. Not what you clearly hoped for, but certainly what you've earned.
I'm sorry but maybe I can help you out a little bit here. As you can see based on my posts I started with a rules issue, then yes it did turn into a bit of a rant. Now, I have come to a conclusion about this DM and what I am going to do. Next, it is in no way my job to police what a friend of mine says about someone else, even another friend of mine. He could have been a great deal more polite about what he has said, but again I have no more power over what he says than I have over you. Gagnrath is overly harsh on a personal level, but on a gaming level he is truly that bad of a DM, and I will not be playing with him anymore.
AW well rats that sort of ends the group and my cynical story time, so it looks like part 1 will be a 1 part story will post the story of the last 2 sessions and thats it then.
So yeah I should probably be nice but oh well.