Unarmored Agility is useful because there are many cloth-only armor enchantments that are good for spellcasters (including one that prevents you from provoking OAs).
Second are you playing a Rogue|Sorcerer (Hybrid) or a Rogue/Sorcerer (Rogue multiclassed into sorcerer).
Third, have you read the Char-Op handbooks?
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Both of those have entire sections devoted to feats at different tiers of play.
Fourth - What are you trying to do with this character? Is there anything in particular you are trying to make your character accomplish (remaining hidden, using only fire etc etc.)?
if you are worried about survivability you can build your toon for primary range attack, and try pew pew away from danger. range build is ideal anyway for a sorcerer.
I prefer rogue warlock. It's better mix personally. synergy classes. Not sure why you picked sorcerer But nothing wrong with that.
versatility (filling many party roles) and high DMG striker is what I go for with rogue hybrid class. I assume you're making hybrid. Rogue multi classes into sorcerer is kinda pointless.
Then I suggest Shadowy Rogue/warlock class. Shadowy rogue (martial book 2), allows you to hide when concealed. Warlock shadow walk gives concealment after moving 3. You can be hidden every round After you attack. Also CA too since hidden. That takes care of survivability. rogue attacks hit mostly reflex. Can pick warlock powers that hit Will defense, and you are versatile in combat. Also high dex for ac, reflex & high cha for Will defense makes you overall good defense against variety of foes, when they go after you while hidden.
rogue warlock great synergy class since both makes good use of dex and charisma, and just good mix.
can even be more versatile by taking Rituals and be group ritualist.
High striker, high survivability, party scout, trap, streetwise, ritualist. You can fill so many roles, one man show.
also multi class into a healer class and you can even heal the party... Only thing you can't do is mark a target, but can't do everything ;p
At the moment I'm really stuck with him, though, because I'm looking at the entry for rogue and the one for sorcerer and I really don't know what class features he's supposed to have as a hybrid. His really low strength and high Dex means that I think I should make him a Storm Soul, but I have no idea how to combine these two classes. At the moment I don't seem to be getting any benefits from either class except qualifying for stuff from both power sets.
He's a hybrid Rogue\Sorcerer and we are playing 4e (I didn't realise we don't get protection rings anymore, but I'm more used to 3.5e), sorry I should have mentioned it! His best stats are 18 Cha and 18 Dex (he got plus two on both from his race), so I think he will do well as a sorcerer\Rouge. I did think about warlock, but it really doesn't fit how I want to play him.
At the moment I'm really stuck with him, though, because I'm looking at the entry for rogue and the one for sorcerer and I really don't know what class features he's supposed to have as a hybrid. His really low strength and high Dex means that I think I should make him a Storm Soul, but I have no idea how to combine these two classes. At the moment I don't seem to be getting any benefits from either class except qualifying for stuff from both power sets.
Generally speaking you want to avoid making a hybrid for your first character. After you have a decent grasp of the rules and decide to make a hybrid you typically want to make something whose primary and secondaries line up, and something that has an AC fix to it. Sorc|Rogue doesn't really have an AC fix cooked in (Your AC is probably 14 at level 1) and you won't get to double dip from their class features. There is a Dex/Cha rogue build and a Cha/Dex sorcerer build so at least your stats line up.
Rogues get sneak attack. Hybrid rogues get sneak attack only on rogue powers.
Sorcerers get +secondary stat to damage of their arcane powers. Hybrid sorcerers get +secondary stat to damage of their arcane sorcerer powers.
So Hybrid is rather limiting and takes a little finesse to be worth it. Personally I'd just make your character one or the other rather than make a hybrid. Or you are going to need to take a lot more time working on reading up on hybrids in order to make your character viable.
Sorcerers get +secondary stat to damage of their arcane powers. Hybrid sorcerers get +secondary stat to damage of their arcane sorcerer powers.
Could you break this bit down for me a little more? I'm not sure what you mean.
I have played D&D for a little while (mostly 3.5), I'm just a bit confused because I can't find any instructions on how to make a hybrid character in 4e. The thing is though that I really want to make a character that is basically a sneaky infiltrator (lock picking and so on) with sorcerery-style magic. And I was going to give him that feat that lets you channel a ranged attack through an implement. Can you recommend anything? He kinda needs to be powerful because our DM is a little punishing. I'll give you my stats:
Str 8
Con 12
Dex 18
Int 10
Wiz 12
Cha 18
For your first character, I would recommend just making a sorcerer, then use a background to get Stealth on your class list, then Multiclass Rogue to get training in Thievery. Presto, 'sneaky infiltrator with sorcery-style magic'.
The rules for hybrid characters are in Player's Handbook 3...
First, forget everything you learned from 3.5 - 4E does it differently.
Multiclassing isn't the same as it was in 3.5... You don't get all the class features of each class. Making a hybrid character is only somewhat similar to 3.5 multiclassing. You only get certain specific class features from each class. And limited versions of those class features at that...
A Rogue hybrid gets Sneak Attack as its one and only class feature - and they are restricted to using it only on Rogue class powers and paragon path powers.
(Your Rogue|Sorcerer character can't get SA on any of his Sorcerer spells.)
A Sorcerer hybrid's only class feature is that it gets to choose either their STR or DEX modifier to add to their damage with Sorcerer class powers and paragon path powers, and can use either STR or DEX for their AC.
(Your Rogue|Sorcerer hybrid can't get his extra sorcerer damage on any of his rogue powers.)
You can take the Hybrid Talent feat to get back one of the class features you lost.
Trying to hybrid two different strikers actually ends up gimping both sides because you lose out on most of the better class features and can't add both striker class features to the same attack.
Quite honestly, if you wanted a sneaky character that can use magic, you'd be better served by playing something other than a rogue, and simply taking the Stealth and Thievery skills.
In point of fact, the Warlock is pretty much what you're looking for - it already has Thievery on it's skill list and if you build it as a human can have at-will powers that let you attack both in melee and at range.
Edit: Or as pointed out, you could just make a straight Sorcerer and pick up Stealth and Thievery.
Don't get hung up on the names of the classes or the official fluff - the best "rogue" isn't always the Rogue. Use whichever class have the mechanics to do what you want and call it whatever you like.
Is there a way to set it up so that my character is mostly a Storm Sorcerer, but has a few good rogue powers (like piercing strike) and is trained in stealth and thievery? I don't want to use backgrounds as I already have one that I'm set on keeping, but maybe there is a way to do it with feats and multi-classing? Bluff should be easy enough since Sorcerers can train in it and I can get stealth and a limited sneak-attack potential via the Rogue multi-class feat (can I backstab using any attack with that or just melee basic?), but that still leaves thievery.
Is there a good way of setting this up with feats and multi-classing?
Thats a tall order Hengeyokai. Lets see if we can help you make all that happen.
Straight off the PHB-3:
Hybrid Sorcerer
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged Implements: Daggers, staffs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6
Hit Points per Level Gained: 2.5
Healing Surges per Day: 3
Class Skills: Arcana (Int), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance (Con), History (Int), InSight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Nature (Wis)
Class Features: Sorcerous Power
Hybrid Talent Options: Soul of the Sorcerer
Hybrid Rogue
Role: Striker
Power Source: Martial
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather
Weapon Proficiencles: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex
Hit Points at 1st level: 6
Hit Points per level Gained: 2.5
Healing Surges per Day: 3
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dex) Extra Trained Skills: Choose two extra trained skills from the class skills list above.
Class Features: Sneak Attack (hybrid)
Hybrid Talent Options: First Strike, Rogue Combat Talent, Rogue Tactics
Combine those two to make your hybrid rogue/sorcerer. Hybrid Talent Options: You use Feats to obtain those class specifics if you want them. Also you got to pick At Will, Encounter, Daily Utility from mixture of the two classes.
Make Daggers your main weapon since it can be used as implement for sorcerer and weapon for rogue. I suggest go Dagger Master for Paragon Path. Allows you to Crit at 18-20 with daggers.
Trained Skills: You gain three trained skills, chosen from your list ofclass skills. Some hybrid class entries grant extra trained skills. which must be taken from that class's skills list, not from the combined list.
So pick 3 skills from your list of skills in sorcerer and rogue hybrid, also rogue gets 2 more from rogue hybrid list for total of 5 skills.
Suggested Feats:
Hand to Hand Rogue Combat ability:
Versatile Expertise: bonus to atk with weapon & implement
Paragon Defense: Bonus to Ref/Fort/Will defense
Backstabber
Winter Touched
Lasting Frost
(These two combo with Frost Dagger and you will have CA for Sneak Attack with rogue abilities should you go hand to hand, & sorcerer Cold Attack powers also benefit. The extra +5 frost vulnerability helps with damage for both Rogue & Sorcerer.)
Sorcerous Arcane Combat ability:
Just pick feats that adds damage to your sorcerer abilities.
You basically got two seperate method of combat. 1. Range 2. Melee. I recommend you stick with range as much as possible, because you are squishy.
Hope this helps.
Hengeyokai Storm Sorcerer (Not a hybrid)
Take a background that lets you get Stealth as a class skill.
Multiclass into Sneak of Shadows (Giving you Sneak Attack once per encounter and training in thievery). Thats in, you are done. It takes you background and your first level feat and you can then go do whatever you want.
Sorcerer Rogue Hybrid
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword, simple ranged Implements: Daggers, staffs
Bonus to Defense: +1 Will, +1 Reflex
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges per Day: 6
Class Skills Sorcerer: Arcana (Int), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Endurance (Con), History (Int), InSight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Nature (Wis)
Class Skills Rogue: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dex)
Extra Trained Skills: Choose two extra trained skills from the Rogue class skills list above.
Class Features: Sorcerous Power
Class Features: Sneak Attack (hybrid)
Hybrid Talent Options: Soul of the Sorcerer, First Strike, Rogue Combat Talent, Rogue Tactics
Like others mentioned, you can only sneak attack with rogue abilities, and sorcerous Power only applies to sorcerer abilities.
Pick 3 skills from either list above and 2 more extra skills from Rogue list for total of 5 skills.
POWERS: PHB-3 on Hybrid
Starting Powers: As a hybrid character, you start with the following powers. At-Will: Choose two 1st-level at-will attack powers, one from each class.
Encounter: You gain one 1st-level encounter attack power, chosen from either of your hybrid classes.
Daily: You gain one 1st-level daily attack power, chosen from either ofyour hybrid classes.
Gaining Additional Powers: When you reach a new level and gain an encounter attack power, a daily attack power, or a utility power, you can choose that power from either class. However, if you have at least two powers in the same category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, or utility), at least one of those powers must come from each of your hybrid classes. For example, if you have two encounter attack powers, one of the powers must be from one of your hybrid classes, and the other power must be from your other hybrid class.
Ghost I understand the desire to help. But there is very little reason for this person to actually play a hybrid. Everything they seem to want can be gotten via Sorc fairly easily and Rogue/Sorc is pretty terrible. Hybrid classes are also a really bad plan for starter characters.
Yah agree lol. Hopefully the OP can make up his mind and find what he wants.
You can do it at first level if you like, just take the feat and carry on your merry way.
You cannot take rogue powers via MC under normal circumstances. The only way to do so via MC is through X Power feats (Novice Power being an example). Those feats allow you to trade one ability you have for one ability of the same type in the class that you multiclassed into.
Edit: It might be easier to explain to me what you want from rogue and I can tell you how to best go about translating that into a character build.
I think that what I really want is a way to make the hybrid really work, but at the moment I'm not sure what way to go with this. I think I have a good basis for a strong character, but if there is no suport for it and their powers are nerfed, I really don't know what to do.
I'm a bit puzzled at the lack of suport since the blurb for the hybrid clasess spesifically mentions it.
The only other option seems to be to ask my DM if I can somehow stretch the multiclass feat and make more like a real multi-class rather than a feat for dabblers.
I just wish there was some way to take a storm sorcerer, give them training in rogue skills and allow them to choose rogue powers\feats (and maybe that once-per-encounter sneak attack), that would be pretty-much what I was after. Is there some way to trade class features to get a proper sneak-attack? I don't mind loosing the protection bonuses if it lets me get the character I want to play.
I really don't know at this point. :/
You only have to make sure you have one power from each class at each 'frequency'; one at-will from each class, one encounter, one utility, and one daily. Past that, you're free to go.
BTW, hybrids only get the worst armor proficiencies of their two classes. Since Sorcerers are not proficient with armor past cloth, you aren't automatically proficient in leather armor.
so make The hybrid. Stat is below. Like Sally say, you don't get leather. Rest is correct so build from it.
Make up your mind, then rest of us can make suggestions. What you want is what hybrid rules were made for, so make it. No brainer. Do your sexy storm magic with sorcerers power damage from range. When you get into melee or whatever bust out your rogue moves and backstabbing. youll have all the skills you been asking.
I think what he really needs at the moment is a feat that improves his AC somehow. Unarmoured Agility is the obvious choice, but is there a better one I could take that will help me long-term, or a way for me to stack an AC feat with something else? Is it worth getting the leather armour proficiancy feat instead?
What Salla said is basically correct, you are wanting to do too many things with one character. Pick a character that specializes for your first character. You want swords/sorcery go for swordmage or just go for plain rogue.
Also, at least how I'm reading your post, it seems you think you get a lot more from hybrid than you do.
Here is an example of what a hybrid character will look like this at level 3:
Rogue At-Will
Sorcerer At-Will
Rogue Encounter Power (L1)
Rogue Daily (L1)
Rogue Utility (L2)
Sorcerer Encounter Power (L3)
You have to alternate your powers back and forth. With the above build the next encounter power can be either one, but the L3 power must be sorcerer. When you get a new utility and daily they also both need to be sorcerer. You end with the same number of abilities you would have as a straight class, but evenly split between the two classes.
Now lets get into the bigger issue:
There is no reason a dragon sorcerer can't do everything you want.
Dragon Sorcerers are designed to be melee or close range sorcerers. You can pick up Ensorcelled Blade if you want to have a melee attack with a dagger (which works quite well) and if you build right your average damage isn't that off from stabbing someone as a rogue. You meantion having a bad melee basic attack, but Ensorcelled Blade counts as a melee basic attack.
Math:
[disclaimer: This isn't great char-op math as it ignores hit rate and feats, but this gives you a general idea]
Damage on rogue dagger (assuming 20 dex): 1d4+5+2d6 ~ 2.5+5+7 = 14.5
Damage on dragon sorc ensorcelled blade (assuming 18Cha/18 Str): 1d4+4+4 ~ 2.5+4+4 = 10.5 and you don't have to worry about getting combat advantage. If someone attacks you and triggers the secondary of ensorcelled blade the damage goes up to 14.5 (exactly the same as the rogue's average damage).
Now you can do the same with a storm sorc (dex secondary instead of str) but you won't be as hardy in melee.
As to the comment about DM not allowing MC:
What would his reasoning be for not allowing you to take the MC feat? its in the PHB1 and a very basic part of the game.
TLDR: The long and short of it is you can do all you want to as a hybrid. The problem is you will be stretched too thin, like jelly over too much bread, and end up being behind the curve at basically everything. Make something that is strong at what he does instead of being meh at everything.
0k, thanks, it just seemed like everyone thought it was a really bad combo.
I think what he really needs at the moment is a feat that improves his AC somehow. Unarmoured Agility is the obvious choice, but is there a better one I could take that will help me long-term, or a way for me to stack an AC feat with something else? Is it worth getting the leather armour proficiancy feat instead?
There are much better combo, but never the less, it's what you want your toon to be so. You already got a picture in mind, so make the best of it and go with it. Playing a char you like is better then playing a much better made char, you don't like.
If you want +2 to ac then get Unarmoured agility. If you get that though, understand that any Leather magic armor you find... well you can't use it w/out wasting that feat. If you get leather armour prof. you still get +2 to ac. Thats entirely up to you. Also high AC don't mean much against foes attacking your Will and Fortitude. Don't get so focused on AC. I'm assuming you are making a 1st level charactor, so not much option you have anyway.
As a striker, you can compensate through tactics. If you gonna just charge into fray like a defender, go heads up with multiple foes, you making wrong class. If you can be sly, avoid damage and hit foes from distance,while the Defender takes most of damage, well thats what you are suppose to do anyway.
Your job as striker in combat is simple. Do as much damage per round, eliminate foes before they eliminate your defender. Should focus on doing a great job at that.
Your second job you giving yourself as Scout, Lock & trap master, well that's easy enough. High Perception, stealth, Thievary skill will take care of that.
Piercing Strike is not Rogue's best At will. Sly Flourish is much better. Dex + Cha dmg to attack is big, especially since you got 18 dex and cha. Thats +8 additional damage each time. Don't go Piercing Strike. Go Sly Flourish.
> sorcery for ranged attacks and Rogue for melee.
Is there some reason why you MUST use rogue attacks for melee?
Unlike 3E, a sorcerer doesn't have to worry about spell disruption and the like when facing something at close range. Ranged and Area powers do provoke OAs when used in melee, but sorcerers have a solid repertoire of "Close burst/blast" powers that are designed for in-your-face work. If you just like the idea of poking someone with a knife then there is also a suite of dagger-based melee powers for sorcerers.
Short of a proper multi-class option I think this is the only way to get the character I want to play and, as you say, it's better to go through a game doing what you want than be a power-house who wishes he was doing what he wants. :P
The reason I am using rogue for close range is the sneak attack on those powers, but really what I want would be a character whose abilities are mostly rogue and whose attacks are mostly magical (except for the ones I think are a better choice). The ones he uses are purely situational and I think that the choice of tactics is good.
Likewise, "rogue abilities" is a blurry concept in 4E since there aren't really any rogue-class-specific skill functions or similar class-restricted capabilities. (IE: none of 3E's "only rogues can find/disable difficult traps".)
That said, if you really want a "tricky magic" type, and you don't want to use a sorcerer with melee powers and sneaky skill trainings, then a fey hexblade is probably still a better option (Hexblade is a variant warlock found in the Essentials books) than trying to make a hybrid, and it won't require too much sourcebook-digging.
The big thing that I am a little lost on is this:
Do you want to use rogue abilities but you want them to look and feel magical? Cause if that is the case talk to your DM about refluffing a rogue. Refluffing is just taking the abilities and changing how they look (mechanically they function exactly as they would otherwise) but it can help you get your concept on a chassis that is fun and strong.
The think about the difference between "Doing what he wants" and "being strong" is that hybrids, multiclassing and refluffing should allow you to be both with minimal effort. It really should be almost trivial to play what you want and have it be mechanically powerful.
What do you mean by "abilities are mostly rogue" and "attacks are mostly magical". That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
To be honest, I would be happy with a straight-up Storm Sorcerer who just happened to have training in all those skills, but there doesn't seem to be a way to get both thievery and stealth training at first level without changing his background and I'm not really that keen on dropping his access to rogue powers. If there is a feat that lets you get two extra trained abilities at first level I might be able to get him where I want him by second level with a multiclass feat, but I think a carefully built hybrid would still be preferable to that.
The Fey Hexblade actually does look very, very good and I'm very interested, but from what I have seen the warlock powers are mostly vindictive stuff that causes conditions rather than nasty splash damage, which is what I want to bring to the party at range. I do love the idea of the hexblade and the fey stuff and I'm wondering what sorts of things I could do with it.
Hey, here's a thought. What about a fey-pact Hexblade hybridised with a Storm Sorcerer? Seems like something with serious RP and damage potential (at a glance, anyway). I'm not sure it would work though because his strength is 9 and his constiturion, intelegence, and Wisdom are all either ten or twelve
And accordingly, you're better off picking the mechanically-strong options, because playing a character that doesn't work very well is boring and annoying playing a character that works well is much more interesting.
What is it that you're specifically attached to from your background?
That's not to say, BTW, that a Sorc|Rogue couldn't work - indeed, there's a decent amount of synergy there, particularly for one of the Dex-primary sorc builds. But it sounds like you're being a little unfocussed about it.
For instance, Sly Flourish over Piercing Strike: You're a Rogue (at least, that part of you is), and Rogues are VERY accurate. You should basically never attack without CA, you're using a +3 prof weapon, and (IIRC) Hybrid Rogues still get Weapon talent. Attacking Ref with a weapon is nice, but it's not the be-all and end-all of killing high-defence enemies. Indeed, with a Sorc, that's what your other at-will should probably be for.
But to be honest, to do what you want (a Rogue whose attacks are magical, and you seem very attached to the Rogue class), what you need is reflavouring. You simply cannot build a Rogue who uses mostly Rogue class features, but atatcks with Arcane attacks, in 4e. Something's gotta give. It could be class, or it could be reflavouring.
Now, to be fair, I don't really remember what in-class skills a hexblade has but it wouldn't be hard to get the two skills you want by second level.
The background Born Under a Bad Sign is very nice, but the question I have for you is why do you need training in both stealth and theivery at L1? You will likely have around a +4 base in either just from stat which will go up to +5 at level 2. If you waited til level 2 to get training in both you would be perfectly ok to not have one or the other (I'd ditch thievery).
Basically what space invader said is correct. You have a very narrow view of what you want, and not enough focus to actually get the job done. Here are your current options:
1) Refluff a Rogue to being said to use magical attacks. Get all the roguey powers you want.
2) Make a sorcerer and prefer melee over other options. MC into rogue to get stealth and take Theivery training at at 2 (Or MC into rogue twice if you have STR13).
3) Make a hybrid and be fairly squishy and complicated. Constantly remind yourself that you don't get sneak attack for sorcere abilities and don't get sorcerer spell source on rogue powers. Take a feat to help your abyssmally low AC at level 1.
4) Make a hexblade. It really doesn't even take refluffing to make a hexblade a magical rogue. You might need to take one of the two MC feats (either MC rogue or MC assassin) to get stealth and theivery.
5) Continue trying to explain to us what you want. There isn't a silver bullet to this problem (which is what I imagine you were hoping for) so I don't know what else we can do for you.
Edit: What does "Handspring assault for hitting boss characters" mean? Cause thats not even a very good daily...
Make a hexblade. It really doesn't even take refluffing to make a hexblade a magical rogue.
Wow, actually, the more I read down the power list on this thing the more I really want it. Thanks guys, I think this is what I might use, but I'm still a bit wary of the warlock powers I'll probably have to supplement. Can anyone suggest blade and sorcerer-style powers for him?
Make a hexblade. It really doesn't even take refluffing to make a hexblade a magical rogue.
Wow, actually, the more I read down the power list on this thing the more I really want it. Thanks guys, I think this is what I might use, but I'm still a bit wary of the warlock powers I'll probably have to supplement. Can anyone suggest blade and sorcerer-style powers for him?
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I know it's poor form to link my own thread, but at least the build isn't mine. Just change the race from halfling to Hengeyokai.
I know it's poor form to link my own thread, but at least the build isn't mine. Just change the race from halfling to Hengeyokai.
Cool, thanks, that's all I really wanted.
I'm sorry it took so long to get here but you guys have been really great and I think this is just what I wanted. Now, I need confirmation of that.