On the other hand, Cleric and Druid gives you more skill points and magic, but the druid is likely going to have lower AC and damage than the cleric, at least until he can wild shape.
Chances are, both characters are going to need ways to heal themselves or at least avoid damage, so if you're starting at a moderately high level a Wizard and Cleric could work, or even a Rogue with Use Magic Device and a Cleric.
If one person wants to be a character who can't heal himself, the other must almost certainly play as a Cleric, or there wont be enough healing magic to go around. Likewise, the non-healer better have at least 2 of the following: High AC, good hit points, or strong damage dealing ability. A bard is right out.
Druid is a good option, but paladin... why not a crusader? both heal, both tank, both have "spells"...
If you expect to have an excessive amount of downtime, druid + artificer might be even better.
B) druid and wizard
C) druid and cleric
D) cleric and wizard
E) Druid and rogue
For an effective team up, I would vote druid/wizard.
Druid and archivist or wizard and archivist could be two other good mixes.
Beguiler covers arcanist & trapfinder.
Paladin, cleric, or Druid all cover Tank & healer. Druid has the companion, so that's an edge.
Archivist is fairly weak unless the DM is very generous with loot & down time AND open with the rules.
Archivist is fairly weak unless the DM is very generous with loot & down time AND open with the rules.
If by open to the rules, you mean following exactly as printed, then yes.
The DM just has to let you say "i am looking for a scroll made by a paladin, do i find one? if not i move on" when in town, or a library between adventures. At worst you end up with your normal cleric powered spells, and at best you are far ahead.
With spells by paladins in such high demand by artificers, well then of course a few enterprising paladins will take scribe scroll and sell them to fund their Paladin-ish activities. [sub paladin for any other class needed to get early spells]
[QUOTE HoH excerpt] At any time, an archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required (see Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook on page 178 of the Player's Handbook). The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion but the two free spells he gains for advancing in class level must be selected from the cleric spell list.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3
If by open to the rules, you mean following exactly as printed, then yes.
The DM just has to let you say "i am looking for a scroll made by a paladin, do i find one? if not i move on" when in town, or a library between adventures. At worst you end up with your normal cleric powered spells, and at best you are far ahead.
With spells by paladins in such high demand by artificers, well then of course a few enterprising paladins will take scribe scroll and sell them to fund their Paladin-ish activities. [sub paladin for any other class needed to get early spells]
[QUOTE HoH excerpt] At any time, an archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required (see Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook on page 178 of the Player's Handbook). The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion but the two free spells he gains for advancing in class level must be selected from the cleric spell list.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3
Umm, no, it's not a few Paladin scrolls I am worried about. It is things like having a trained monkey high level warlock who does nothing but scribe scrolls for you. Getting arcane spells becuase some forgotten 3.0 PrC maybe sort seems to allow a divine caster to cast any arcane spells. Saying that somewhere, somehow there's a Domain that has any and thus every Arcane spell in it. In other words, getting access to every Wizard spell too. And assuming that there is a Paladin AND a ranger AND a Druid AND a Blackguard all availavle 24/7 all with Scribe Scroll and eagerly awaiting your every scribing needs.
Sure an Archivist should be able to get his hands on some nice Divine-but-not-Cleric scrolls. It's a class feature. But assuming that every archivist has free access to every single spell in the entire D&D multiverse- that's why the CO boarders think the class is so powerful.
Look, the cleric already knows 100% of every cleric spell everywhere (given campaign restrictions)- that's hundreds & hundreds, dozens & dozens per level. The Druid knows 100% of every druid spell. The Archivist gets 2 spells per level, and a nice but LIMITED assortment of non-clerical divine spells. At best, with lots of cash, he knows 1/10th the spells any cleric knows. AT BEST. Now sure, a smart Archivist will skim the very best spells from each divine casting class off the top, and that is a nice class feature. But it ain't even close to what the cleric knows and has available- for free, every single morning.
And assuming that there is a Paladin AND a ranger AND a Druid AND a Blackguard all availavle 24/7 all with Scribe Scroll and eagerly awaiting your every scribing needs.
They don't need Scribe Scroll; they can work with a wizard to make the scroll (though I've seen folks who interpret the rules to say that the scroll then ends up being arcane and unusable by the paladin/ranger/druid/blackguard).
Non-essential, but nice: skillmonkey
Probably druid+wizard or druid+druid, heh. With animal companions. But if you want to get away from that lousy druidness maybe try wizard+cleric or wizard+paladin. It's a tough call and I don't feel like analyizing it to death. Plus you already got some good replies. The answer is probably some combo of cleric, wizard/sorceror, druid, fighter, paladin. And I'd say +1 to most of the replies involving those.
Now responses. Lots of good stuff said, but I disagree with the following:
Paladins: You're usually better off with a fighter here. Paladins are weaker unless you have multiple high stats or need bare-bones healing (and your partner isn't covering the healing). Barbarian could work as well or better than a fighter if you limit the encounters per day.
Rogues and UMD: Scrolls are expensive, and getting a high enough UMD where you don't fail a lot is hard. Plus rogues can't tank, so safely getting in any decent damage in a 2 person party will be difficult. In th end it's a weak choice. Two rogues and LOTS of careful sneaking (and running away when that fails) might work though.
wizard5/incantatrix10/whatever5 build with spontaneous divination at wizard lvl 5. this guy does the god/batman thing, controlling the battlefield with save-or-suck while hiding behind the codzilla. after a while he will be able to provide additional help to the codzilla with cooperative metamagic, sexy persistent buffs for everybody. He also covers knowledge with various knowledge skills and divination magic.
Vulnerable to AMF/Dispell due to being buff heavy, but overall a strong combination at any level from 1 to epic.
Independant of the builds chosen for the 2 main party members, leadership will offcourse be a way to boost the power of a small party. Offcourse, leadership is one of those feats that is often banned/nerfed and for good reason. Still, if its allowed a bard (yes bard!) can make for an excellent cohort in this manner. While his lower level to the party will make it harder for him to directly affect the enemy, his haste buffs and inspiring courage songs will provide a great advantage. With some optimization inspiring courage can become truly terrifying.
A forgotten 3.0 PrC while legal in lots of games, is not 3.5 material, and needs to be updated to 3.5. If it isn't I usually don't allow it. I'm not 100% sure on the RAW behind that.
Domains, sure if you can point out the domain it exists. Otherwise it does not. Easy enough.
My point is daniel, you did say that it took a DM to use a loose interpritation of the rules. I pointed out that actually it required a DM to use the rules strictly as written.
I do have to disagree with this quote a lot
assuming that there is a Paladin AND a ranger AND a Druid AND a Blackguard all availavle 24/7 all with Scribe Scroll and eagerly awaiting your every scribing needs.
If those classes exist in a setting with archivist, then it is quite logical that at least one or two took a feat that lets them make lots of money. Thats the buisness works. Heck they probably even advertise.
-to the op, Before I play in any game, I generally try to get the DM to tell me about any restrictions and house rules on anything. If they don't bring it up, then I assume it is open to use. If it is open to use, I can gather that I will run into an NPC of that type at least once if need be. If the DM says "hey druids are NPC only" that is fine, but please say so up front, not after I take leadership trying to get a druid cohort to act as spiritual advisor to my barbarian.
If you have your DM do this, don't hold them strictly to it [that makes you an ass] just ask that they let you alter your character to reflect their new rules.
Where this intersects with artificer, if the DM says only PHB dieties, well then those are the only domains you will be able to grab from. If the DM says NPC's will have PC classes, then you don't get to use adept. If they say Warlocks do not exist, you loose a lot more spells. Same with if they say no unearthed arcana, or specifically limit you to certain sections of it you loose out on divine bard spells.
With the archivist spells though, at worst you are on par with the cleric. At best you are far beyond.
A forgotten 3.0 PrC while legal in lots of games, is not 3.5 material, and needs to be updated to 3.5. If it isn't I usually don't allow it. I'm not 100% sure on the RAW behind that.
My point is daniel, you did say that it took a DM to use a loose interpritation of the rules. I pointed out that actually it required a DM to use the rules strictly as written.
I do have to disagree with this quote a lot
If those classes exist in a setting with archivist, then it is quite logical that at least one or two took a feat that lets them make lots of money. Thats the buisness works. Heck they probably even advertise.
With the archivist spells though, at worst you are on par with the cleric. At best you are far beyond.
Well, that 3.0 PrC's are a big part of what the CO boarders claim is what makes the Archivist so powerful, and they ain't within the RAW. That's a "loose interpretation". Assuming that every given arcane spell exists somewhere on some Domain is also not within the rules.
Sure, in a huge metropolis you might have a couple. But how does the PC archivist get to them? Not every campaign has Waterdeep withing travel distance.
And, like I said- you are not on a par with the cleric- the archivist gets FOUR cleric spells per level of spells known for free. The cleric gets around a hundred. Buying the other 96 or so is impossible given the normal funds in a normal campaign. Buying those other 96 AND a hundred or so Druid spells and dozens of Paladin spells and dozens of Domain spells and dozens of Ranger spells and dozens of Balckguard spells requires a DM that allows the PC unlited cash, an infinite spellbook and endless downtime to scribe the spells. That's a pretty loose "interpretation" of the rules, is it not?
I actually played one. The DM even made a point of throwing a few nice druidical scrolls my way in the loot. And, I spent around 1/4 my cash on buying more. Still, I knew only a 10th of the spells the cleric did. Sure, some of those druid spells were nice, but a half-dozen druid spells per level does not make up for losing out on 96 or so "known" cleric spells per level. And my PC had to spend precious resources in buying scrolls and scribing them. The cleric had a +2 WIS item, I did not. (We were playing 5th - 9th). Not having that headband of WIS hurt, but I had to spend my cash on new spells.
And you didn't sell your spellcasting services in the meantime to fund further scroll acquisition, I take it.
Sure I did, I adventured,:P which is a very good way of getting scads of loot. But no sane DM will let the players just sit around and accumulate endless cash during "downtime". Good DM's keep folks SOMEWHERE near the DMG guidelines. Around there, more or less. In order to keep the game balanced, you need to control the wealth.
Sure an archivist can sell his services and gain power by buying scrolls. But a fighter can do the same and get cool magic weapons, the cleric gets Pearls of power and other neat things and so forth. Every class can gain power by gaining wealth. Why would an archivist get more wealth than the other PC classes?
And, that's what it takes.Well, that 3.0 PrC's are a big part of what the CO boarders claim is what makes the Archivist so powerful, and they ain't within the RAW. That's a "loose interpretation". Assuming that every given arcane spell exists somewhere on some Domain is also not within the rules.
I'm not speaking from a CO boarders experience, I'm speaking as someone who has played with, been one, and DM'ed one. I go there on occasion, but it is not my normal area. Sure using 3.0 prc and assuming every arcane spell is in a domain is a loose interpritation is loose with the rules. The class also looses no power for not doing so. See warlocks.
Sure, in a huge metropolis you might have a couple. But how does the PC archivist get to them? Not every campaign has Waterdeep withing travel distance.
Not every campaign has a huge metropolis within walking distance, you are right. That is why you ask the DM "hey how much down time is there, and will we be focused mostly in a city or the woods" if they say "no down time whatsoever, and totally in the woods" do not play one. Also do not play a wizard, or bard, or ect.
But if a warlock exists, it stands to reason he sits around making scrolls of anything to sell to the archivists.
And, like I said- you are not on a par with the cleric- the archivist gets FOUR cleric spells per level of spells known for free. The cleric gets around a hundred. Buying the other 96 or so is impossible given the normal funds in a normal campaign. Buying those other 96 AND a hundred or so Druid spells and dozens of Paladin spells and dozens of Domain spells and dozens of Ranger spells and dozens of Balckguard spells requires a DM that allows the PC unlited cash, an infinite spellbook and endless downtime to scribe the spells. That's a pretty loose "interpretation" of the rules, is it not?
Why would you buy all 96 or so other cleric spells, the hundred or so druid spells, all the domain spells, the ranger spells, the paladin spells, and blackgaurd spells? Thats a terrible idea. Instead you buy the spells you want, cherry picking one or two from each list. In addition many of the spells in those schools over lap, or are given earlier from another class. Simply take the one you want. You won't need infinate cash, but simply your standard WBL, and a prayer book, maybe two if you are greedy. Endless downtime? Or you simply scribe a spell each morning into your book right before you prepare spells. So yes, it is a loose interpritation of the rules to have infinate money. It is also a huge exageration that is unneeded.
I actually played one. The DM even made a point of throwing a few nice druidical scrolls my way in the loot. And, I spent around 1/4 my cash on buying more. Still, I knew only a 10th of the spells the cleric did. Sure, some of those druid spells were nice, but a half-dozen druid spells per level does not make up for losing out on 96 or so "known" cleric spells per level. And my PC had to spend precious resources in buying scrolls and scribing them. The cleric had a +2 WIS item, I did not. (We were playing 5th - 9th). Not having that headband of WIS hurt, but I had to spend my cash on new spells.
I have played, DM'ed and played in a party with, one. Why did you not also get the +2 wis item? spells are fairly cheap, with the most expensive ones at 3k a piece If you can cast level 9 spells. A half dozen druid spells per level? there is the problem, you got greedy. Instead the idea is to grab the exotic spells from a library- say lesser restoration level 1 from paladin, Identify level 1 from a domain, heal from paladin at level 5, maybe a couple of druid ones so you can charge for lots of melee damage, or buff your charger. Anything else is really the icing on the cake. Especially if you had a cleric in the party who can fill in any gaps in your arsenal.
Just because you can't play an effective one, does not mean it is true for everyone.
The idea is not to compete with the druid for spells known, that is almost impossible except maybe for druids. The idea is to compete for powerful spells known. Very diffrent, and one is totally possible.
- 2 bards (or a bard and his fighter bodyguard) travel the countryside looking to be famous. At some point they have an adventure, with many puzzles, conversation and the occasional bar brawl.
- 2 Rogues are teaming to steal from the legendary wizard tower.
- 2 Druids (druid/ranger) are send by their coven to handle the wolf attacks in the forest. The animals have turned hostile for no reason.
- 2 Barbarians are banished for a crime they didn't commit. If you are lucky enough to find them, and have enough money to hire them..
Just a few examples. :P
Well, you have 4 roles you need to cover. Arcanist, Tank, healer, and trapfinder.
Beguiler covers arcanist & trapfinder.
I'd actually forgetten about using the beguiler for trapfinding. I'll ammend my original suggestion:
1) A Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus*
2) Either Arcivist, Cleric, or Druid
* More specifically, something like
Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10/X 5, or
Beguiler 1/Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 6/Ultimate Magus 10 (take one level of MS before UM, then the other five afterward).
Set up a spell scroll shop. Go on adventures for lost spell scrolls. Scrolls, scrolls, scrolls. Also, more scrolls.
Hmm. Best make them both illumians.
Bookmancers do it, after reading instructions.
but not 2 barb.
Human Ninja 1/Druid 19 with Able Learner. This guy can scout, tank, bring another tank with him, and take care of the parties healing needs. Optimize him for casting/summoning for the greatest effect. Wis to AC = win.
Human Abjurer 2*/Master Specalist 7/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 4. This guy is your quintessential controller/buffer/debuffer/general utility wizard. His job is to keep the tides of monsters from gaining the tactical initiative, and generally making the life as easy as possible for the driud and his pet. Have him blast stuff with a wand when no control is needed, but never waste your time actually memorizing any damage spell.
*Possible through Precosious Apprentice
Play whatever classes appeal to you as players and trust the GM to make it work ;)
Trust the DM? That's crazy talk! :P :P :P