I recently joined up with a group that is...mediocre. They have a lot of flukes and things wrong with them. The DM wouldn't let me Sneak Attack during the first round of combat against NPC's that hadn't acted yet; so obviously their credibility is in question. That's why I'm here to seek your professional help. The rules in D&D are so obscure, it's all open to debate. But I want to set this straight once and for all.
This new DM says that if I wanted a +2 Longsword I'd have to pay for the Masterwork (300 something), then just purchase the +2 enchantment (8,000). Obviously...there's a huge discrepancy. You'll pay a lot more cash one way, and a lot less the other way. Also, he says that if you had a total of +2 on your weapon, and wanted it Flaming, it would be titled as a +2 Flaming Longsword. This, I really don't understand. Wouldn't that make it a +3 enchantment rather than a +2? This may sound minute...but think about it. When you receive some loot, it's confusing whether or not it's a +2 Keen Greatsword (+3 bonus) or a +2 Keen Greatsword (+2 bonus).
I'd really like to know. Please halup meh!
A +2 Keen Longsword on the other hand is an effective +3 weapon, so you pay the cost of a +3 weapon for it (that's 18000gp in enhancement costs from the top of my head), but it only gives you +2 to hit and damage; the other point of to hit/damage is traded for the ability to score more critical hits.
So, if you upgrade a +1 weapon to a +2 weapon, the price would be 6000gp (8000gp for +2 - 2000gp for +1 that you already paid)
To upgrade a weapon from a +1 to a +2, you pay the difference bewteen +1 and +2.
A weapon must be at least a +1 to add anything else to it, so there cannot be a MW +1 sword (not sure if that was a part of the OP's question)
The price list for most enhancements lists a bonus; some list only a cost. Flaming costs a +1 bonus, so a +2 flaming longsword is worth and is equivalent to a +3 sword. Keen is also a +1 bonus, so a +2 flaming keen longsword costs a +4 bonus.
I don't have my book on me so I don't have a page number, but it is at the beginning of the section on magical weapons in the DMG.
I have a vague memory of 2nd edition from high school: I think that in 2e it worked that way to add up all costs for the bonuses. Not sure though.
Edit: looks like I was beat to the punch
Too slow of a typer lolWhat you cannot have is a MW Keen Longsword; it has to be at least a +1 Keen Longsword, and thus an effective +2 weapon
I think I understand this now...which means the party should have gotten a LOT more gold for all of those items we sold...curse you rotten DM!
This new DM says that if I wanted a +2 Longsword I'd have to pay for the Masterwork (300 something), then just purchase the +2 enchantment (8,000). Obviously...there's a huge discrepancy. You'll pay a lot more cash one way, and a lot less the other way. Also, he says that if you had a total of +2 on your weapon, and wanted it Flaming, it would be titled as a +2 Flaming Longsword. This, I really don't understand. Wouldn't that make it a +3 enchantment rather than a +2? This may sound minute...but think about it. When you receive some loot, it's confusing whether or not it's a +2 Keen Greatsword (+3 bonus) or a +2 Keen Greatsword (+2 bonus).
This is the correct answer.
At least for the table you find yourself gaming at currently.
Why? Because the DM has complete freedom to alter/change/add/ modify/ignore/etc. any rule as they please. Doesn't matter if they're "right", "wrong", or anything else. so if this is how the DM tells you purchasing magic items works in his game? Then it is.
I see...but armor is still considered Masterwork for the purposes of gaining the Masterwork bonus? The -1 to Armor Check Penalty? Just not weapons, right?
The weapon is still masterwork, it just doesn't help anything usually.
Should you, however, find yourself in an anti-magic field, your weapon still has its +1 to hit bonus for being masterwork
(And yes, the Armor is also still masterwork so the -1 to ACP still applies)
This is the correct answer.
At least for the table you find yourself gaming at currently.
Why? Because the DM has complete freedom to alter/change/add/ modify/ignore/etc. any rule as they please. Doesn't matter if they're "right", "wrong", or anything else. so if this is how the DM tells you purchasing magic items works in his game? Then it is.
Not when the campaign is run from a book and the book tells you to give the PC's a +1 Heavy Steel Shield of Spell Resistance. That makes a bit of difference. If he was freelance, you'd be correct...but if you're doing a pre-generated campaign...it's wise to follow the books. Also. Freelance DM's who think they are god's gift to their neighborhood often find themselves without parties. :P Just saying...don't ever think that the DM is infallible...
This is the correct answer.
At least for the table you find yourself gaming at currently.
Why? Because the DM has complete freedom to alter/change/add/ modify/ignore/etc. any rule as they please. Doesn't matter if they're "right", "wrong", or anything else. so if this is how the DM tells you purchasing magic items works in his game? Then it is.
No, just plain no. Rule zero is not an excuse for ignorance. The DM is free to change whatever rule they see fit, but this does not make them infallible. And the DM can be wrong. Players have every right to question their DMs, they do not have the right to be disruptive about it.
Not when the campaign is run from a book and the book tells you to give the PC's a +1 Heavy Steel Shield of Spell Resistance. That makes a bit of difference. If he was freelance, you'd be correct...but if you're doing a pre-generated campaign...it's wise to follow the books...
So, if you run campaigns from boxed sets/books you are not allowed to change anything. Thats a large wagon full of horse manure.
Just because you use a pre-generated campaign doesn't mean you can't add a little of your own flavor (whether its rules or setting wise).
No, just plain no. Rule zero is not an excuse for ignorance. The DM is free to change whatever rule they see fit, but this does not make them infallible. And the DM can be wrong. Players have every right to question their DMs, they do not have the right to be disruptive about it.
This is true. As a DM I ask that whatever rules are used be used until at least the end of the session. I don't want to stop the game just for simple rules dispute. Personally, I am fully aware that I can make mistakes, and I will correct them when and if possible.
You pay the total price once, so a +2 Longsword indeed costs 8315 GP (15gp for being a longsword, 300gp for making it masterwork and 8000gp for a +2 enhancement)
A +2 Keen Longsword on the other hand is an effective +3 weapon, so you pay the cost of a +3 weapon for it (that's 18000gp in enhancement costs from the top of my head), but it only gives you +2 to hit and damage; the other point of to hit/damage is traded for the ability to score more critical hits.
So, if you upgrade a +1 weapon to a +2 weapon, the price would be 6000gp (8000gp for +2 - 2000gp for +1 that you already paid)
I've always charged full price to upgrade. Not sure if that is by the RAW rules though but as I see it enchanting to +2 the first time should be easier than taking an enchanted weapons and increasing the enchantment.
the DM has complete freedom to alter/change/add/ modify/ignore/etc. any rule as they please. Doesn't matter if they're "right", "wrong", or anything else. so if this is how the DM tells you purchasing magic items works in his game? Then it is.
It's generally adviseable for a GM to express ahead of time everything that deviates from the ules as written.
Also, manytimes DMs will go with an "incorrect" (or not as written) rule because they intend to follow the written rule but misinterpret/misread it. If you explain to them what the rule actually is, you then give them the choice of going with the way it is written or for them to houserule it.
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Others have explained the item pricing, but let me also mention some things here about sneak attacking:
The DM wouldn't let me Sneak Attack during the first round of combat against NPC's that hadn't acted yet; so obviously their credibility is in question
I can't tell if you meant a single particular NPC or NPCs in general, but keep mind the following (incomplete list) of things will prevent sneak attack:
- Target is immune to sneak attack (undead, elemental, construct, etc)
- Target has uncanny dodge (rogue, barbarian, etc)
- Target has concealment (its darkish and you don't have enhanced vision)
- Target has fortification armor
- Target actually has had his initiative come up in combat but did something the PCs didn't notice...maybe just delaying his turn.
Most DMs would inform you of the reason your sneak attack didn't work, but some DMs like to keep all those types of details from the players.
So, if you run campaigns from boxed sets/books you are not allowed to change anything. Thats a large wagon full of horse manure.
Just because you use a pre-generated campaign doesn't mean you can't add a little of your own flavor (whether its rules or setting wise).
Relax. You're reading too far into what I was saying. DM's have the rights to make their own rules...but they shouldn't be allowed to make their own rules on the spot. The PC's have every right to know what they can and cannot do. DM cheating should be used sparingly...and only when the PC's are having it too easy or too rough.
@InigoCarmine
Nono. You don't understand. My DM was ignorant and didn't know the rules. He flat out didn't know that before your initiative comes up at the beginning of combat; you're flat footed. The NPC had no cover or concealment. I came up first, I wanted to throw a dagger at them and deal Sneak Attack. He was baffled even though I showed him the rule...he's just an example of a DM who hasn't read the entire DMG.
Relax. You're reading too far into what I was saying. DM's have the rights to make their own rules...but they shouldn't be allowed to make their own rules on the spot.
If I read too much into it then I apologize. However, your post didn't appear to leave much room for another conclusion (at least on my part).
DM's sometimes have to make up rules on the spot, or at least an interpretation of the existing rules. Its the nature of the job. A decent DM will at least be willing to discuss options (usually after the game session).
The PC's every right to know what they can and cannot do?
The only way people learn what they can and cannot do is by trying to do it or ask the question.
If any DM tried to write down everything that PC's would or would not be able to do for a campaign, I imagine they would get bored fairly quickly and simply write "Just ask me".
This new DM says that if I wanted a +2 Longsword I'd have to pay for the Masterwork (300 something), then just purchase the +2 enchantment (8,000). Obviously...there's a huge discrepancy. You'll pay a lot more cash one way, and a lot less the other way.
This is correct. When creating or purchasing weapons, you don't need to incrementally apply each level, you just apply the desired enchantment to the base weapon. There are rules hidden somewhere for upgrading, and the existing enchantment acts as a discount (at least partial).
Also, he says that if you had a total of +2 on your weapon, and wanted it Flaming, it would be titled as a +2 Flaming Longsword. This, I really don't understand. Wouldn't that make it a +3 enchantment rather than a +2? This may sound minute...but think about it. When you receive some loot, it's confusing whether or not it's a +2 Keen Greatsword (+3 bonus) or a +2 Keen Greatsword (+2 bonus).
It's titled as a +2 flaming longsword, but costs identical to a +3 longsword. Similarly, a +2 Keen Greatsword and a +3 Greatsword both cost 18k (assuming keen is worth +1; it's been a while).
First, this seems to be a 3.5 question, which means it would be better placed in the "previous editions" forums.
This forum is not specific to 4E.
Since all magic items begin as masterwork items, they retain the masterwork properties, though as noted the to-hit bonus of masterwork weapons is ignored because the magic bonus will always be at least as good and does not stack.
You may want to show the page describing flat-footed state to your DM, which (going from memory) should explain that even without a surprise round, everyone is flat-footed until they take their first action, though there's a feat that alleviates that vulnerability.
As a final note, you may want to stop calling your DM and anyone else ignorant. You are just creating a hostile environment.