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MAgic Properties Stack?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bobotheguy
May 06, 2009 0:39:50 Evening all!

But a simple question, I was curious to know of in the creation of a magic weapon, you could 'purchase' properties multiple times, and have their effects stack.

For instance, could I effectively have a +1 double flame Longsword (a total of +3 enchantment bonus) and have it do a bonus 2d6 damage per strike?

In my situation, my character has DR 5/evil as well as Fast Healing 4. I was looking to take the Viscious Property twice. (+4d6 damage on each strike, and I take 2d6 damage)

Is this permitted? What are the rules in this situation?

Bobo
#2
calronmoonflower
May 06, 2009 1:04:20 No they don't.

Try adding two different properties that deal different damage types instead.
#3
bobotheguy
May 06, 2009 23:48:46 Im sorry but could you please site it?
#4
DragonsWrath
May 07, 2009 0:06:22 I would not allow the enhancement bonuses to stack, but I would allow up to two or three utility enhancement properties on the same weapon, especially if it's the player's signature weapon.

For example, my Dragonborn Fighter likes to customize his weapons.
Say I'd like to have a flaming/frost weapon. You can turn the damage either fire or cold, and the total cost would be the total cost of all the enhancements.
A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp), and a +1 Frost weapon (680 gp), for a total of a +2 Flaming/Frost weapon (5680 gp).

You would have to impose some restrictions, but as long as it's for the 'cool factor' I wouldn't mind at all. Also, you must start with the most expensive base weapon. In this example, a +2 Frost weapon is worth 3400 GP.

On second thought, you mat want to bump the level of the item +1 for each secondary effect, making it cost 9000 gp total.
#5
lordmorbis
May 07, 2009 0:11:06 The use of the Enchant Magic Item ritual is straightforward
enough, allowing characters to make magic items
of their level or lower. However, the ritual can also be
used to place a property in a magic item that has no
property, or to upgrade a magic item to a more powerful
version 5 levels higher.

Likewise, magic item properties and powers cannot
be stacked, so that a character cannot imbue a suit of
sylvan armor with the property and power of sunleaf
armor as well.

Back of Adventurers Vault. For official stuff.
#6
calronmoonflower
May 07, 2009 0:23:50 From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm

#7
lordmorbis
May 07, 2009 0:26:49 Aww, I got one upped in formatting...
#8
haplo81
May 07, 2009 0:29:00 OP is talking about 3.5, just FYI.
#9
bobotheguy
May 07, 2009 0:45:16 Yes, this is 3.5.

I am looking at the DMG page 221, reading on the section about magic weapons. The only relevant info reads:

"Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifyers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit"

this is the only text from the Header Weapons. to describing the actual abilities.

I understand that bonuses from similar sources do not stack with each other, however srd is implying that all of the bonuses can fall under a category. Under what category of bonus would we find damage dice from magic weapons?
#10
Zherog
May 07, 2009 9:27:44
I would not allow the enhancement bonuses to stack, but I would allow up to two or three utility enhancement properties on the same weapon, especially if it's the player's signature weapon.

For example, my Dragonborn Fighter likes to customize his weapons.
Say I'd like to have a flaming/frost weapon. You can turn the damage either fire or cold, and the total cost would be the total cost of all the enhancements.
A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp), and a +1 Frost weapon (680 gp), for a total of a +2 Flaming/Frost weapon (5680 gp).

You would have to impose some restrictions, but as long as it's for the 'cool factor' I wouldn't mind at all. Also, you must start with the most expensive base weapon. In this example, a +2 Frost weapon is worth 3400 GP.

On second thought, you mat want to bump the level of the item +1 for each secondary effect, making it cost 9000 gp total.

Your prices (ex: "A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp)") are way, way wrong.

In addition, your initial premise is entirely wrong. A +2 flaming, frost longsword is a completely legit weapon.

*

To the OP...

This topic has come up a few times in the past. There's generally two sides to the discussion:

A) some people will say you can't make a +1 flaming flaming longsword. They'll cite, well... the quote Cal posted, actually.

B) others will say that there's nothing inherently wrong with a +1 flaming flaming longsword. They argue that the stacking rules apply to bonus types, such as enhancement, luck, circumstance, etc.

That's the two sides of the discussion, in a very small nutshell. To the best of my knowledge, there's no direct rules quote that supports either side. I didn't see anything in the FAQ about it, either.

However, there is an entry in the FAQ to address DragonWraths point about making a +1 flaming frost longsword. I'll quote the entire question/answer, even though only part of it applies.

The new descriptions for the flaming, frost, and shock weapon special abilities say that these weapons’ energy effects work only on command. Why was this changed in the revision? Does that mean that their wielders must use a standard action to activate them for each attack? Or do the energy effects last awhile? If so, how long do they last? What’s the chance that you burn (or freeze or shock) yourself when holding onto an activated weapon? Can you put away an activated weapon without damaging the scabbard where you store it? What happens if you have ammunition with these effects? Do you have to activate each piece of ammunition separately? What happens if you have a flaming, frost, and shock weapon? Logically, such a weapon couldn’t exist, but what if it did? Would you have to activate each property separately? Finally, how does all this affect flaming burst, icy burst, and shocking burst weapons? Do you have to activate these weapons’ flame, frost, and shock properties for the burst powers to work?

The flaming, frost, and shock weapon special abilities always have been command activated; the revision just clarified that.

Activating an energy power requires a standard action, but once you activate energy power, the power works until you use another action to deactivate it. You can activate or deactivate one of these powers on up to 50 pieces of ammunition at the same time, provided that all the ammunition is in your possession, all the ammunition is the same kind, and all the
ammunition has the same power.

Any attack you make with an activated weapon deals energy damage to your foe if you hit—you don’t have to do anything special to deal energy damage with it.

A burst weapon’s burst power is use activated and it works even when the weapon’s energy power is not activated (see the last sentence in each power’s description).

The energy from a flaming, frost, shock, flaming burst, icy burst, or shocking burst weapon never harms you while you’re wielding or carrying the activated weapon (see the power descriptions), and it will not harm your equipment. If you lose or set down an activated weapon, the energy it produces will harm other objects it touches, so it is best to deactivate it first.

There’s nothing illogical about a flaming, frost, shock weapon (at least not within any framework that allows weapons to generate energy in the first place), and there’s no rule against such weapons (think of the weapon as having fiery, frosty, shocking flames). The character creating such a weapon decides how it can be activated. Most such weapons probably are made so that the wielders can activate all three powers simultaneously, or activate them one at a time, as desired.

So there's that.

To the main point, though... I don't think this one has a clear-cut answer. I think both "sides" have reasonable points, and so it really comes down to a question for your DM to decide.

I will point out that Skip Williams does still answer rules-related questions over on Kobold Quarterly's site. Some answers appear in the magazine in the As the Kobold column, and some appear on the site. You can ask Skip this question (or any other) by registering on the forums and posting to this thread. I think it's a very good question, actually, and is certainly worth getting one of the original designer's viewpoints on.
#11
DragonsWrath
May 07, 2009 10:29:37
Your prices (ex: "A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp)") are way, way wrong.

In addition, your initial premise is entirely wrong. A +2 flaming, frost longsword is a completely legit weapon.

Care to explain that? I took the info straight out of the Char Builder...

I've never heard a ruling on multiple effects on weapons, so I was just making things up.

[edit]Wait, are you still talking 3.5 prices & rulings?
#12
Zherog
May 07, 2009 12:07:11
[edit]Wait, are you still talking 3.5 prices & rulings?

Yes. Which is what version this thread is about.
#13
wraithstrike
May 07, 2009 13:55:25
Yes, this is 3.5.

I am looking at the DMG page 221, reading on the section about magic weapons. The only relevant info reads:

"Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifyers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit"

this is the only text from the Header Weapons. to describing the actual abilities.

I understand that bonuses from similar sources do not stack with each other, however srd is implying that all of the bonuses can fall under a category. Under what category of bonus would we find damage dice from magic weapons?

Without looking at the SRD I would probably say unnamed, but unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack.

On the other hand I don't think it would be game-breaking to allow the flaming property to stack, but then you have to take into account other properties that might cause issues if it is taken as general rule that the same property can be taken several times.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bobotheguy May 06, 2009 0:39:50	Evening all! But a simple question, I was curious to know of in the creation of a magic weapon, you could 'purchase' properties multiple times, and have their effects stack. For instance, could I effectively have a +1 double flame Longsword (a total of +3 enchantment bonus) and have it do a bonus 2d6 damage per strike? In my situation, my character has DR 5/evil as well as Fast Healing 4. I was looking to take the Viscious Property twice. (+4d6 damage on each strike, and I take 2d6 damage) Is this permitted? What are the rules in this situation? Bobo
#2 calronmoonflower May 06, 2009 1:04:20	No they don't. Try adding two different properties that deal different damage types instead.
#3 bobotheguy May 06, 2009 23:48:46	Im sorry but could you please site it?
#4 DragonsWrath May 07, 2009 0:06:22	I would not allow the enhancement bonuses to stack, but I would allow up to two or three utility enhancement properties on the same weapon, especially if it's the player's signature weapon. For example, my Dragonborn Fighter likes to customize his weapons. Say I'd like to have a flaming/frost weapon. You can turn the damage either fire or cold, and the total cost would be the total cost of all the enhancements. A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp), and a +1 Frost weapon (680 gp), for a total of a +2 Flaming/Frost weapon (5680 gp). You would have to impose some restrictions, but as long as it's for the 'cool factor' I wouldn't mind at all. Also, you must start with the most expensive base weapon. In this example, a +2 Frost weapon is worth 3400 GP. On second thought, you mat want to bump the level of the item +1 for each secondary effect, making it cost 9000 gp total.
#5 lordmorbis May 07, 2009 0:11:06	The use of the Enchant Magic Item ritual is straightforward enough, allowing characters to make magic items of their level or lower. However, the ritual can also be used to place a property in a magic item that has no property, or to upgrade a magic item to a more powerful version 5 levels higher. Likewise, magic item properties and powers cannot be stacked, so that a character cannot imbue a suit of sylvan armor with the property and power of sunleaf armor as well. Back of Adventurers Vault. For official stuff.
#6 calronmoonflower May 07, 2009 0:23:50	From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm
#7 lordmorbis May 07, 2009 0:26:49	Aww, I got one upped in formatting...
#8 haplo81 May 07, 2009 0:29:00	OP is talking about 3.5, just FYI.
#9 bobotheguy May 07, 2009 0:45:16	Yes, this is 3.5. I am looking at the DMG page 221, reading on the section about magic weapons. The only relevant info reads: "Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifyers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit" this is the only text from the Header Weapons. to describing the actual abilities. I understand that bonuses from similar sources do not stack with each other, however srd is implying that all of the bonuses can fall under a category. Under what category of bonus would we find damage dice from magic weapons?
#10 Zherog May 07, 2009 9:27:44	I would not allow the enhancement bonuses to stack, but I would allow up to two or three utility enhancement properties on the same weapon, especially if it's the player's signature weapon. For example, my Dragonborn Fighter likes to customize his weapons. Say I'd like to have a flaming/frost weapon. You can turn the damage either fire or cold, and the total cost would be the total cost of all the enhancements. A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp), and a +1 Frost weapon (680 gp), for a total of a +2 Flaming/Frost weapon (5680 gp). You would have to impose some restrictions, but as long as it's for the 'cool factor' I wouldn't mind at all. Also, you must start with the most expensive base weapon. In this example, a +2 Frost weapon is worth 3400 GP. On second thought, you mat want to bump the level of the item +1 for each secondary effect, making it cost 9000 gp total. Your prices (ex: "A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp)") are way, way wrong. In addition, your initial premise is entirely wrong. A +2 flaming, frost longsword is a completely legit weapon. * To the OP... This topic has come up a few times in the past. There's generally two sides to the discussion: A) some people will say you can't make a +1 flaming flaming longsword. They'll cite, well... the quote Cal posted, actually. B) others will say that there's nothing inherently wrong with a +1 flaming flaming longsword. They argue that the stacking rules apply to bonus types, such as enhancement, luck, circumstance, etc. That's the two sides of the discussion, in a very small nutshell. To the best of my knowledge, there's no direct rules quote that supports either side. I didn't see anything in the FAQ about it, either. However, there is an entry in the FAQ to address DragonWraths point about making a +1 flaming frost longsword. I'll quote the entire question/answer, even though only part of it applies. The new descriptions for the flaming, frost, and shock weapon special abilities say that these weapons’ energy effects work only on command. Why was this changed in the revision? Does that mean that their wielders must use a standard action to activate them for each attack? Or do the energy effects last awhile? If so, how long do they last? What’s the chance that you burn (or freeze or shock) yourself when holding onto an activated weapon? Can you put away an activated weapon without damaging the scabbard where you store it? What happens if you have ammunition with these effects? Do you have to activate each piece of ammunition separately? What happens if you have a flaming, frost, and shock weapon? Logically, such a weapon couldn’t exist, but what if it did? Would you have to activate each property separately? Finally, how does all this affect flaming burst, icy burst, and shocking burst weapons? Do you have to activate these weapons’ flame, frost, and shock properties for the burst powers to work? The flaming, frost, and shock weapon special abilities always have been command activated; the revision just clarified that. Activating an energy power requires a standard action, but once you activate energy power, the power works until you use another action to deactivate it. You can activate or deactivate one of these powers on up to 50 pieces of ammunition at the same time, provided that all the ammunition is in your possession, all the ammunition is the same kind, and all the ammunition has the same power. Any attack you make with an activated weapon deals energy damage to your foe if you hit—you don’t have to do anything special to deal energy damage with it. A burst weapon’s burst power is use activated and it works even when the weapon’s energy power is not activated (see the last sentence in each power’s description). The energy from a flaming, frost, shock, flaming burst, icy burst, or shocking burst weapon never harms you while you’re wielding or carrying the activated weapon (see the power descriptions), and it will not harm your equipment. If you lose or set down an activated weapon, the energy it produces will harm other objects it touches, so it is best to deactivate it first. There’s nothing illogical about a flaming, frost, shock weapon (at least not within any framework that allows weapons to generate energy in the first place), and there’s no rule against such weapons (think of the weapon as having fiery, frosty, shocking flames). The character creating such a weapon decides how it can be activated. Most such weapons probably are made so that the wielders can activate all three powers simultaneously, or activate them one at a time, as desired. So there's that. To the main point, though... I don't think this one has a clear-cut answer. I think both "sides" have reasonable points, and so it really comes down to a question for your DM to decide. I will point out that Skip Williams does still answer rules-related questions over on Kobold Quarterly's site. Some answers appear in the magazine in the As the Kobold column, and some appear on the site. You can ask Skip this question (or any other) by registering on the forums and posting to this thread. I think it's a very good question, actually, and is certainly worth getting one of the original designer's viewpoints on.
#11 DragonsWrath May 07, 2009 10:29:37	Your prices (ex: "A +2 Flaming Weapon (5000 gp)") are way, way wrong. In addition, your initial premise is entirely wrong. A +2 flaming, frost longsword is a completely legit weapon. Care to explain that? I took the info straight out of the Char Builder... I've never heard a ruling on multiple effects on weapons, so I was just making things up. [edit]Wait, are you still talking 3.5 prices & rulings?
#12 Zherog May 07, 2009 12:07:11	[edit]Wait, are you still talking 3.5 prices & rulings? Yes. Which is what version this thread is about.
#13 wraithstrike May 07, 2009 13:55:25	Yes, this is 3.5. I am looking at the DMG page 221, reading on the section about magic weapons. The only relevant info reads: "Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifyers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit" this is the only text from the Header Weapons. to describing the actual abilities. I understand that bonuses from similar sources do not stack with each other, however srd is implying that all of the bonuses can fall under a category. Under what category of bonus would we find damage dice from magic weapons? Without looking at the SRD I would probably say unnamed, but unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack. On the other hand I don't think it would be game-breaking to allow the flaming property to stack, but then you have to take into account other properties that might cause issues if it is taken as general rule that the same property can be taken several times.