Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pyroman Aug 18, 2008 18:54:04	So this is my first time playing DnD (4e). Never played before, never seen a game played. But anyway... We started a campaign with a DM who has played ADnD onwards (apparently he knows his ****). All of us at level 1, we started with Keep of the Shadowfell but finished part one and went on to our own campaign. Now we're all level 6, and not one person has a magical item. No armor, no weapons, nothing. Granted, the game is pretty relaxed (we play by the rules, but don't count arrows or anything), and occasionally the DM bends the rules one way or another to keep the game fun, but no magical items at all? So my question is this: what should the drop rate for items be? And I know the DM has planted items in rooms or traps before, but apparently our party just passed by them or something. Is this Player fault for not looking over every corner and room for treasure, or should the items be more plentiful?
#2 daeva Aug 18, 2008 18:56:21	a group of players in 4E should receive a number of magic items = to group size -1 during the course of each level, of specific item levels as detailed by the DMG, any change to this. that's if your playing the game strictly by what the DMG says.
#3 pyroman Aug 18, 2008 20:24:42	I'm guessing this is more of a DM question then, but how should the DM include the items if the players skip over where they're hidden? Should he just tack them on as loot with the dungeon boss?
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 18, 2008 20:45:02	I'm guessing this is more of a DM question then, but how should the DM include the items if the players skip over where they're hidden? Should he just tack them on as loot with the dungeon boss? If you were to ask me, the DM should be making most of the items easy to find through the dungeon... and, if some where hidden and did not get found, should add them back in somewhere else to make sure that he doesn't inadvertantly create a situation in which the party is not as capable as they should be.
#5 daeva Aug 18, 2008 21:13:35	yeah magic items should be pretty easy to find, whats the point of a group of orcs owning a +3 flaming sword if it just sits in a chest all the time? the games intended balance is kinda based on that, id just (and do)add a missed magic item into the horde at the end, the penalty of not finding it is not having it until the dungeon/minor arc is over. Anyone remember the outrage in the living greyhawk module for the badlands where in order to get any treasure from it you had to for some reason slaughter a good paladin and steal it? and in another where you pretty much had to rob the good kings castle? the badlands in living greyhawk got screwed... A LOT.
#6 kouk Aug 18, 2008 21:29:07	Don't equate experience with previous editions with actual ability to DM. It may be he's awesome; but just having played old editions doesn't prove anything. Anyway, the DM should throw them back in somewhere along the line, because if you never find the magic items eventually you will just wipe out on a fight that should have been average difficulty. Ask him though if he is intentionally not giving magic items, because a lot of DMs (apparently) do that on purpose. EDIT: There are no "drop rates" in D&D 4th edition. By Default there is a certain amount of treasure a party of X number of players should find at each level. The DM should decide where they find that stuff, not whether they find that stuff. If you miss significant amounts of loot, the DM should recycle them into future places not long after to give you another shot at it. The penalty for not finding the stuff is not having it sooner. I don't think that is explicitly said in the DMG, but there is stress throughout the rules that having the appropriate amount of loot is important for game balance.
#7 Cohen95 Aug 18, 2008 23:29:41	Just keep running the instances until you get the drops you want. See here for more. Seriously, though, I believe the DMG recommends something to the effect of, essentially, one magic item per character per level, all of which are at least one level higher than the party.
#8 serphet Aug 18, 2008 23:33:12	from DMG p.125 During the course of gaining that level, expect a group of five characters to acquire four magic items ranging in level from one to four levels above the party level. In addition, they should find gold and other monetary treasure equal to the market price of two magic items of their level. the items are really needed for balance issues, but if teh DM knows what he's doing, he knows what he's doing.
#9 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 19, 2008 0:01:38	the items are really needed for balance issues, but if teh DM knows what he's doing, he knows what he's doing. This confuses me. The party is level 6. They should either have magic items according to the parcels listed in the DMG, or a +1 to all attack rolls, defenses, and damage rolls to compensate for them. The lack of these things shows that either the DM a) doesn't know what he is doing or b) is intentionally stacking the odds against his players.
#10 serphet Aug 19, 2008 0:21:04	This confuses me. The party is level 6. They should either have magic items according to the parcels listed in the DMG, or a +1 to all attack rolls, defenses, and damage rolls to compensate for them. The lack of these things shows that either the DM a) doesn't know what he is doing or b) is intentionally stacking the odds against his players. I was simply being polite and not stating the paradox.
#11 Cohen95 Aug 19, 2008 7:02:34	This confuses me. The party is level 6. They should either have magic items according to the parcels listed in the DMG, or a +1 to all attack rolls, defenses, and damage rolls to compensate for them. The lack of these things shows that either the DM a) doesn't know what he is doing or b) is intentionally stacking the odds against his players. Or, the DM could be watering down the monsters, instead of buffing the players. If he knows that his players should all be getting a +1 to basically all combat rolls, he could instead simply be applying -1 to all combat rolls for the monsters. This would mirror the effect, without the players knowing they're benefiting, thus making them more secure in them not having magic items, because they don't see themselves having any special benefit, but are still being successful.
#12 rainkiss Aug 19, 2008 8:40:23	I can see players missing an item or three along the way, it happens. But, even if your GM wasn't recycling, you're talking (at the bare minimum of level 6, five characters assumed as you didn't state) a minumum of TWENTY magic items that've been "missed" as you wandered through... Sounds like the deck's stacked, and you might want to have a quiet word with the DM outside the game to ask what gives. Have the DMG in hand, open to the Treasure Parcels table, and ask what y'all are doing wrong.
#13 nightwalker450 Aug 19, 2008 10:50:51	My group currently has just made it to level 3, and we only have 1 person in the party with 2 magic items. Everyone else only has 1. I think the DM just realized he was shorting us, because before the last fight we only had 1 magic item (sub par item as well Catstep Boots), for a party of 6 (going on 7). Also in the last encounter we just got a random library of ritual books (at least 1 copy of all rituals up to level 8), the bbg had been killing clerics for a while. :D So I'd just recommend bringing it to his attention, he probably hasn't looked at the overall setup of the treasure parcels.
#14 zaydrache Aug 19, 2008 16:53:48	As a side note. Perception gets a standard take 10 as passive perception so if anyone is trained in it. You should be able to find most things without actively searching for it. If stuff is hidden he should at least be giving hints that treasure is somewhere there.
#15 ravenouspuma Aug 19, 2008 18:03:08	I've played in a few games prior to 4E where the GM wanted low magic so rarely gave out magic items even up to 9 level but he also didn't run a standard D&D world. Pretty much from 3E, on as a DM, after experiencing these low magic games I decided to run the game straight out of the book with all it's magic items, potions and found it to be way more fun for myself and my group.
#16 daeva Aug 19, 2008 18:18:46	had the magic item discussion today with the GM, and heres the result... every character is now going to spend the time in every room to search every corner of every thing until they roll a 20, because he made it clear that if we miss finding a parcel, we miss finding the parcel and will have to live without it. see whats wrong in this picture? when i GM i just assume the characters find everything
#17 arcaneone Aug 19, 2008 18:42:05	The DMG gives a guideline on item drop-rate, but the final decision should be on the GM. Perhaps he wants a low-magic campaign. On the other hand if he placed the items in remote parts of the dungeon then really I would have to make a common sense call and wonder why the dungeon inhabitants dont use said items to further their agendas (assuming they are intelligent). Our group finds most of their items when they fight the main baddie for the session. It wouldnt make much sense if we killed the The Dark Priest, Vekon and we found his +2 Staff stashed away under his bed.
#18 kouk Aug 19, 2008 19:29:51	had the magic item discussion today with the GM, and heres the result... every character is now going to spend the time in every room to search every corner of every thing until they roll a 20, because he made it clear that if we miss finding a parcel, we miss finding the parcel and will have to live without it. see whats wrong in this picture? when i GM i just assume the characters find everything On page 41 of the DMG, under "Searching the Room" it states that if the PCs want to search a room, just assume they rolled 20s. It's a time-saving measure, and promotes "searching" without infinite rolling of dice.
#19 Cohen95 Aug 19, 2008 19:30:59	had the magic item discussion today with the GM, and heres the result... every character is now going to spend the time in every room to search every corner of every thing until they roll a 20, because he made it clear that if we miss finding a parcel, we miss finding the parcel and will have to live without it. see whats wrong in this picture? when i GM i just assume the characters find everything Then, from now on, after clearing a room, inform the GM that your character is "taking 20" on their "search" rolls. I use quotes, because those mechanics no longer exist.
#20 zaydrache Aug 20, 2008 8:11:20	Well it sounds like your dm is caught in the past editions. There is no search check any more. Passive perception of anyone trained in perception with a mediocre wisdom can beat even hard DC's for finding something in the room they are in. Print out the errata for the DM guide hand it to him (dc's where changed for skill checks) and point out that unless you are specifically not looking around the room for some reason you are using your passive perception. I see myself wanting people to roll for perception when it isn't entirely necessary just because I myself forget it isn't necessary. Really if you just say when entering or leaving a room "do I notice anything out of the ordinary or something useful". Your dm should give you whatever is in the room as long as you have a decent score.
#21 pschirf Aug 20, 2008 21:09:17	At 6th level a party of 5 is expected to have gotten: 1 level 2 magic item 2 level 3 magic items 3 level 4 magic items 4 level 5 magic items 4 level 6 magic items 4 level 7 magic items 3 level 8 magic items 2 level 9 magic items 1 level 10 magic item and over 90,000 gold, which could be used to buy more magic items... This results in each character having about 5 magic items, 2 of which are level 7 or higher. That's how the game is balanced. -+- That said, if he's really good, he could be looking at ACs and dropping them appropriately, not telling you that you're actually using magic items, or balancing using some other technique. I find this to be not worth it. Low magic worlds don't work well in D&D. You can keep the low-magic feel by using a lot of "superior" items which mirror magic items strength, and that works too a point... but this isn't a game with low-magic mechanics. At least not yet. -+- As far as the "missing a parcel"... that's not how the rules are written, nor is it how they're intended to work. The guidelines are for what the party actually gets, not what they "could" get. And any DM worth his or her salt is going to have the magic items on the bodies, in the hands of, worn by the enemy. Why would an orc leader have +2 chainmail and not wear it? Want to know WHY solo creatures are harder? Look at their stuff... So, when you're about to kill something, always ask in your favorite MMO fan voice "Can I have your stuff?"
#22 Titanium_Dragon Aug 20, 2008 21:20:03	1 level 2 magic item 2 level 3 magic items 3 level 4 magic items 4 level 5 magic items 4 level 6 magic items 4 level 7 magic items 3 level 8 magic items 2 level 9 magic items 1 level 10 magic item and over 90,000 gold, which could be used to buy more magic items... Actually, you'd have expected to find that by the END of 6th level; at the beginning of 6th level, its slightly less than that (1 fewer 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th level item, and less gold). But yes, your DM is being very stingy if you guys don't have a single magic item; you should have lots of them by now.
#23 pigknight Aug 20, 2008 21:27:43	The drop rates on magic item varies adventure to adventure, but each boss in the adventure should drop a blue or higher everytime and expect a couple greens to drop off random enemies. -pigknight, friendly neighborhood player of D&D and WoW. (BTW, my post was a joke...kinda...)
#24 mgshamster Aug 20, 2008 22:05:58	I haven't read much of the DMG yet, but in the game I'm currently involved with, our DM's philosophy on magic items is thus: A magic item is a rare and powerful thing. Most adventurers usually get one, if any, throughout their lifetime. To illustrate how unique and powerful magic items are, here's an example: Jathe Erikson has been a decent warrior most of his life. Upon travelling the lands with his friends and companions, fighting the good fight, he found a mighty and powerful mace. A mace that glowed with righteous fury and was extrememly potent against undead. Jathe lifted the mace into the air and proclaimed, "I am not longer Jathe Erikson! I have earned a new name, as the gods have seen fit to bless me with this mighty weapon! I shall now be called Jathe, Slayer of the Undead! Jathe, Destroyer of the Undead! Jathe, Bane of the Undead! I shall now be called Jathe Deadsbane. May those who have risen again be warned." To receive a magic item is to be so important to your character, that he'd change his name over it. Needless to say, we don't get very many magic items.
#25 Neutronium_Dragon Aug 20, 2008 22:16:10	"I'm sorry, but it seems that UPS is on strike in your game, and I refuse to cross their picket lines."
#26 CCS Aug 21, 2008 14:32:11	Regardless of what you read in any book, or what other opinions you gather, the answer to your question is this: It's entirely up to your DM. That's it. It's that simple. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Now, you say that you realize that your DM has placed items that you've evidently missed. Blame for this (probably) rests mostly with you players. You said your brand new to this. And that your DMs been playing since AD&D. So I'm betting that you're not searching rooms carefully enough, thus missing items, clues, secret doors, etc. Do NOT rely upon the dice alone when "searching". Be specific in describing where/how your character searches. Ex: If you have a tough fight with a foe, take time to specifically examin his weapons/armour, etc. Afterall, we DMs aren't obligated to tell you that foe x attacks you wielding a magic sword. And we also aren't obligeted to ask leading questions like "Are you going to loot the bodies? Don't forget the sword....". This approach to "searching" becomes ever more important based upon how many editions your DM as played through. And that's because although each edition has streamlined the game more & more towards dice rolls/mechanics, the edition one learns to DM in maintains a strong influance upon how one actually runs a game. I know because I'm a 1st ed DM stuck in a 3.5/4e world - and no single search roll will ever cut it at my table.... Good luck.
#27 CCS Aug 21, 2008 14:46:56	The lack of these things shows that either the DM a) doesn't know what he is doing or b) is intentionally stacking the odds against his players. Playing devils advocate; Have you considered that the DM in question really does know what he's doing? And that the prescibed dossages of loot really aren't needed for the planned challenges? Shocking as it sounds, there ARE DMs who can entertain you for a good long while with minimal magic items. Besides, the OP has already stated that the DM has indeed placed the treasure, just that the parties aparrently missed it.
#28 Neutronium_Dragon Aug 21, 2008 14:49:56	That's a terrible approach to it. It completely ignores character ability and turns the game into a D&D version of the old text adventure "hunt the syntax" puzzles, only now it's "try to guess what the DM wants us to say". So now rather than an in-game activity it's a metagame activity - and not the good kind.
#29 CCS Aug 21, 2008 14:58:11	I can see players missing an item or three along the way, it happens. But, even if your GM wasn't recycling, you're talking (at the bare minimum of level 6, five characters assumed as you didn't state) a minumum of TWENTY magic items that've been "missed" as you wandered through... Sounds like the deck's stacked, and you might want to have a quiet word with the DM outside the game to ask what gives. Have the DMG in hand, open to the Treasure Parcels table, and ask what y'all are doing wrong. Were you to do this at my table.... .If you were a new player I/we'd cut you some slack & patiently explain that each DMs free to run games however they see fit. Page/chart #x means nothing. .If you were an experienced player (even a good friend) you'd be looking for a new game.
#30 CCS Aug 21, 2008 15:08:20	had the magic item discussion today with the GM, and heres the result... every character is now going to spend the time in every room to search every corner of every thing until they roll a 20, because he made it clear that if we miss finding a parcel, we miss finding the parcel and will have to live without it. see whats wrong in this picture? Yes, I do. You're going to intentionally start a ******* match that you can't win. Whats the grand plan here? Annoy the 9 hells out of your DM? Push it untill all you do find is the lowest most useless items in the book? Discover that no buyers can be found for this "junk"? Get attacked by how many "wandering monsters" while searching? Find out just how many ways the DM can think up to strip you of all magic/wealth time and again? But hey, go ahead, keep rolling that d20....
#31 dogbackward Aug 21, 2008 15:22:09	Dude, the guy specifically said that the DM is placing the parcels, but if the players don't find them, they're gone forever. He's not doing that to "annoy the DM", he's doing it to not miss out on the treasure he's bloody well expected to have by the game. And if the DM's putting the parcels in, he's obviously not reducing the challenge of the combats, so yeah, he'll have to do that just to not die. Either this guy is specifically screwing his players over, or he failed to properly talk the game over with his players before hand. Either way, dude seriously needs to learn how to DM...
#32 zaydrache Aug 21, 2008 16:00:48	I must admit CCS I am a little confused by your logic as well. You go from saying the players are just blatantly missing stuff due to not searching enough. Then say that if ever a player came to you to communicate his concern about magic items without previously stating it was a low magic campaign. You would kick a player out for even bringing up while bringing the specific source for their concerns. Lastly you say that if someone did specifically search the living daylights out of a room until they were sure nothing was there before moving along after previously telling them if they missed something it was gone. You would strip them of all their belongings. Now I agree a good dm will be able to adjust a campaign to have whatever magic items and the final word belongs to him. However a good DM also needs to communicate his desires to his group. If he wishes them to be actively searching bodies and looking for different items around the rooms a quick description to draw the attention toward the item is a good way to prompt people to look specific places. If you have that new of a group you really need to train them not punish them for not playing how you want them to play. This situation really sounds like an issue of communication and past edition rules bleeding through. Pointing out rules and mechanics by a player is fine as long as after the DM explains their position and that their campaign or house rule is x the player should accept the judgment. If it is something that is making the game not enjoyable though, the DM really should reevaluate the rule.
#33 shylocke Aug 21, 2008 16:34:11	Just to sort of add to this question thread: By the time a party of 5 REACH (<--keyword) level 4, how many magic items, and of what level should they have, strictly by the DMG formula whatever?
#34 pschirf Aug 21, 2008 19:20:40	By the time a party of 5 REACH (<--keyword) level 4, how many magic items, and of what level should they have, strictly by the DMG formula whatever? From 1st to 2nd level: 2, 3, 4, 5 From 2nd to 3rd level: 3, 4, 5, 6 From 3rd to 4th level: 4, 5, 6, 7 Total: 1 2nd level Item 2 3rd level Items 3 4th level Items 3 5th level Items 2 6th level Items 1 7th level Items
#35 shylocke Aug 22, 2008 8:49:20	Thanks PSchirf! As a follow up, if the current magical items in a game were {1,2,3,3,2,1} starting at level 1 as opposed to the level 2 that you have indicated, what level items and how many would you add to the current array to make things "equal-ish"? -Shy
#36 pschirf Aug 23, 2008 11:19:45	Thanks PSchirf! As a follow up, if the current magical items in a game were {1,2,3,3,2,1} starting at level 1 as opposed to the level 2 that you have indicated, what level items and how many would you add to the current array to make things "equal-ish"? -Shy Let's break it down... that group has, as far as counts go... +1 1st level item (+360 value) +1 2nd level item (+520 value) +1 3rd level item (+680 value) -1 5th level item (-1000 value) -1 6th level item (-1800 value) -1 7th level item (-2600 value) So, really, you're looking at not being too far behind. To express it another way, three of your items are basically 4 levels lower than recommended. To make up the ground, I'd add a single 7th level item (Circlet of Authority) and a single 5th level item (Bag of Holding) to their next cash parcel. These items are less likely to imbalance combat than a weapon or armor may. They'd then be: +1 1st level item (+360 value) +1 2nd level item (+520 value) +1 3rd level item (+680 value) -1 6th level item (-1800 value) The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level items, combined, are about as good as the single 6th level item they'd still be missing, and the value totals almost add up to equal that way. Not a terrible trade on either end of the spectrum.
#37 highpriestkraken Aug 24, 2008 0:50:16	My games, I spend hours of game time seaching bodies and locations for magic which I find is a bit over-kill. But thats what I have to do... Tell your DM I say... The DM shouldn't be the opponent you have to fight. It bogs down the game uselessly and only fosters DM vs player mentality.
#38 pschirf Aug 24, 2008 8:30:42	Remind the DM that the treasure numbers are what the players should acquire, not what they have the potential to acquire. The idea that players may "miss" some treasure is old paradigm.
#39 Darth_Caffeineus Aug 24, 2008 8:57:12	As a DM and player, I find searching for treasure really tedious. If you beat the challenge, solve the riddle, kill the monster, avoid the trap, complete the negotiation etc. then you should just get the reward. I hate being forced to comb every room because there might be treasure in my mind it really slows the game to a crawl and kills the narrative. In the game that I am running I just email the players after the game what they get based on how much exp (ie. how succeful they were in that session). I don't even do parcels any more. I just look at the chart and compare how far into the level the party is. If they are halfway to 3rd level I give them half of the treasure they are supposed to get for this level. This way they get all of the magic items and gold per level they are supposed to get, without play getting bogged down. In terms of magic items I just tell them they have found a level X item and the party can work out what said item is. The party bids on the item and the winner pays the rest of the party for the item and then at that point declares what the item is. Again for me this just saves a step, I don't need to get a magic item wishlist from everybody. The only time I specify a magic item is, when the item is plot specific.
#40 etarnon Aug 24, 2008 20:10:08	I think the DM can run his game whatever way he damn well pleases, rules be damned. Anyone that doesn't like a DMs game is free to vote with their feet. That's always the final option.
#41 Cohen95 Aug 24, 2008 21:04:44	It appauls and infuriates me that anybody thinks the right answer is ever to kick a player out, or to leave a game. That's always a last resort, and then only if the player is being overly disrespectful to the other players, person-to-person. D&D is about having fun. It's everyone's job to make the game fun for everyone. If someone complains that they don't like a particular aspect of the game, and your immediate response is always, "Bye." Guess what? You're Doin It Rong. It's not your game, it's your group's game, and if one person isn't happy with the way it's being run, you don't say, "Put up or Shut up." You say, "Okay, what do you think should be done to fix it. Group- do you feel this is wrong? Do you feel this is a good fix? What do you all think?" This is why pre-game is such a vital part of a playing session. My group starts trickling it about an hour before game, and everyone's there a half hour before the game actually starts. We socialize, discuss choices made when leveling, talk about monetary expenditure (if we left off in town). Most importantly, though, we ask questions of the DM. We ask for rules clarifications, we express displeasure with aspects of the game (in the rare case that happens, anyway). We talk about what's going on, so that we, as a group, know that we, as a group, are enjoying the time we're investing into this hobby. If I ever met a DM that said, "It's my game. My world. My rules." I would politely remind them that it is, in fact, WotC's game, and that WotC has given that game to all players, not just the DMs. I would then say, "If you don't want to play as part of a group, then I'd rather you not DM, and if need be, I'll DM."
#42 daeva Aug 25, 2008 20:05:24	I think the DM can run his game whatever way he damn well pleases, rules be damned. Anyone that doesn't like a DMs game is free to vote with their feet. That's always the final option. i would not play with you rather you were GMing or a fellow player, that attitude is chalked full of a fun killing state of mind, and a fun killing personality.