Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 guang Apr 08, 2009 6:41:47	There doesn't seem to be very much money available in 4e. I mean, there's so little that you're really hurting yourself if you don't power-game. People camp outside of town so they can save a few gp. They use equipment until it is several levels old so that they can afford better equipment later. They avoid using rituals because they cost money. Isn't adventuring supposed to be a dangerous but lucrative business? The way it's set up, it seems that by the time you're finally starting to be able to afford that second cup of coffee at Starbucks, you're already ready to Epic off into immortality. Anyway, I came up with a few ways of making extra money, while avoiding advancing in level too fast. Please PEACH. Give specifics about gameplay effects, balance, and in-game difficulties that would have to be faced. 1. Trade. Since you have to go from point A to point B anyway, and everything is expensive or unavailable at point B because of whatever disaster that has befallen them requiring your assistance, why not bring a few trade goods, maybe on a pack horse or a two-horse cart (which you could also sell), making a few gp. I'm thinking specifically of some of the trade goods listed on page 71 of the Draconomicon. 2. Go to the Feywild, find the Plains of Valdrennai, wait until a residuum storm strikes, and put all of your open containers outside to collect residuum as if it were rainwater. 10,000 gp per 1/50 pound should be easy enough to collect. 3. Mug NPCs. (I only mention this one because it was very popular with my classmates in high school). If people are even considering this, then there's a serious poverty problem, and no wonder people are being drawn to a life of crime. 4. Make friends with all the monsters and steal their stuff. (also not a serious suggestion) 5. Farm or mine or run a shop or be a blacksmith or paint landscapes in between adventures. Help me out here. If every cp absolutely has to be dedicated to optimizing your character and his equipment, where is the roleplay? Please let me know what you think, both from a rules-as-written standpoint, and a balance standpoint. Also from a fluff-adding-fun-to-the-game standpoint
#2 kouk Apr 10, 2009 1:01:12	There doesn't seem to be very much money available in 4e. I mean, there's so little that you're really hurting yourself if you don't power-game. People camp outside of town so they can save a few gp. Camping outside town sometimes is fine. People might start to talk if the party does it a lot though ("Did you smell those weirdos who are camping outside of town? I heard they're spies.") They use equipment until it is several levels old so that they can afford better equipment later. They avoid using rituals because they cost money. What's the problem with that? If they can't afford new gear, they continue using their old and reliable gear. Rituals are always a cost vs. benefit situation, and rarely is there a reason to use low level rituals for any real reason at all. Isn't adventuring supposed to be a dangerous but lucrative business? The way it's set up, it seems that by the time you're finally starting to be able to afford that second cup of coffee at Starbucks, you're already ready to Epic off into immortality. What other profession nets you 1,000gp a day? It's plenty darn lucrative compared to a farmer, let me tell you. Anyway, I came up with a few ways of making extra money, while avoiding advancing in level too fast. Please PEACH. Give specifics about gameplay effects, balance, and in-game difficulties that would have to be faced. OK. 1. Trade. Since you have to go from point A to point B anyway, and everything is expensive or unavailable at point B because of whatever disaster that has befallen them requiring your assistance, why not bring a few trade goods, maybe on a pack horse or a two-horse cart (which you could also sell), making a few gp. I'm thinking specifically of some of the trade goods listed on page 71 of the Draconomicon. It makes sense. But what margins are you looking for? To be a trader you have to research what goods are needed where, what goods are cheaper where, what routes are safe/short enough to beat your competition, and risk property loss from roaming monsters. If only there was someone to kill those darned monsters... :P If you're routinely going to "disaster zones" that must be saved ASAP on a heavily-laden horse and cart caravan, chances are you won't be getting there too early. I also wonder about the reception you'll get, when you arrive in town. "We are the heroes here to save your city! Before we begin though, would any of you like to purchase a nice pair of silk pantaloons? They come straight from Fellwater on the coast of Zelwia, top quality! Come on, if we don't sell this all we can't go save your city." Not much of a better reputation than "war profiteer" awaits that adventuring party I expect. 2. Go to the Feywild, find the Plains of Valdrennai, wait until a residuum storm strikes, and put all of your open containers outside to collect residuum as if it were rainwater. 10,000 gp per 1/50 pound should be easy enough to collect. Unless it doesn't actually rain residuum. The DM is in charge of the weather. And who's to say that land isn't owned by several Eladrin Lords, who will be quite willing to kill all you extraplanar interlopers messing with their harvesting. And what's going to pay for all those back and forth trips to different planes anyway? 3. Mug NPCs. (I only mention this one because it was very popular with my classmates in high school). If people are even considering this, then there's a serious poverty problem, and no wonder people are being drawn to a life of crime. You're welcome to try. That profession also doesn't carry much in the way of a good reputation though, and there's no telling when you try to mug "the wrong person" -- and it's an epic level dragon in disguise. 4. Make friends with all the monsters and steal their stuff. (also not a serious suggestion) That's the same as normal theft. If you're an adventurer, you can skip the "making friends" part, and simply kill them and take their stuff. And since they're monsters, you get a good reputation. 5. Farm or mine or run a shop or be a blacksmith or paint landscapes in between adventures. I believe that's a valid option. Simply retire from the dangerous life of adventuring and settle down to run a nice normal business. Sure, your weekly profits are something like 10 gold on a good week, but it's safe. Help me out here. If every cp absolutely has to be dedicated to optimizing your character and his equipment, where is the roleplay? Please let me know what you think, both from a rules-as-written standpoint, and a balance standpoint. Also from a fluff-adding-fun-to-the-game standpoint I actually think the game already assumes some of your money gets "wasted" on non gear-related expenses. If you're level 1, yeah watch your coin purse. If you're level 6, you can afford a stay at the inn -- in fact it's barely worth calculating the cost. Is spending 10gp on a night on the town really going to set you far back at level 10? Sometimes it's worth the roleplaying if you enjoy roleplaying. The DM is really the most influential on how players spend their money I think. If the players feel they never have enough gear or money, then they will save up all their money for gear. If the players are swimming in magic, then they don't have much to do with their gold and can waste it freely. If there are no magic item shops, there's not much to do with gold. If there are tons of them and items are made to order, then they can plan and budget several levels in advance. If the DM actually puts Ritual Components in place of coins, the players will build up a reserve of components they have no other use for except to cast rituals. In that kind of case, they don't feel like they're spending too much on rituals -- they have the components already. Generally any coins you get can't ever buy anything at all near your level, so it's better to just stick with potions and low level items that happen to fill an empty slot. One of the goals of 4th edition was that you find the loot you principally use, rather than simply buying it all with truckloads of gold coins. Adventuring is still the most lucrative occupation in the multiverse. The fact that adventurers like to spend their money on things like magic gear does not take away the fact they have tons more money than commoner will see in their entire lifetime -- they can afford to throw around thousands on luxuries like magic suspenders. Is there ever enough money? No. But that's true in real life, and seems to be true no matter how rich a person is (they never stop being greedy and spending on things they want). Having huge expenses doesn't mean you're not making money. All it means is you're not making a profit -- which is really meaningless to an adventurer if you think about it. What good is 10,000gp in the bank while you're down 2 miles beneath the earth fighting Mind Flayers? Generally profits only go to making more money anyhow -- with investments. For adventurers, you don't get much better investments than magic gear that keeps you alive. If you would prefer your games to be more about shopping with your loads of cash, or if you'd like to spend huge sums on throwing banquets for no reason, then discuss that with your DM. The DM may be able to change treasure distribution to suit that kind of game, by throwing in more raw coinage, or extra coinage on the assumption it will be frittered away. The simplest way is just to have the DM "reimburse" players for their non game-related expenditures. If the PCs spend 50gp a night on beer and women, a nice DM might include 50gp extra in the next treasure hoard.
#3 angelus_obscura Apr 10, 2009 1:55:59	You might also want to consider using rituals for profit. 1. Pyrotechnics (PHB2) is the easiest way to make money. Travel around as an Illuminator (fireworks specialist) who hires his/her pyrotechnic displays for parties, parades, or just the noble's/royal's display of wealth. This is what my bard is doing in-between performance gigs. Gandalf did this for free, the old fool. 2. Banish Vermin (Dragon 366) is another ritual that can attract a lot of business. Produce shops and granaries will subscribe to this service. 3. Preservation (Dragon 366), maybe. This is mostly used by the ones who cast it anyways. 4. Undead Servitor (OG) can generate a large workforce for cheap manual labor. Get several magewrights or apprentices. Have them all learn this ritual. Combine it with Preservation and hire them out (with supervision of course) 5. Bloom (PHB2) = agricultural fun. Unsure whether the profit will make the ritual costs negligible. 6. Sing a Lullaby(PHB2) in a crowded tavern or club and let loose the Rogue. :D
#4 BilopTheFleshwarper Apr 10, 2009 3:25:15	*cough* SKill challanges *cough* Seriously... your party shouldn't EVER be behind on equipment. It's you're DM not giving gear and gold like he's supposed to(according to the DMG). If you're saving 3 gold amongst the whole party by not staying at an inn to save up for gear improvements you're being robbed by your DM.
#5 yrogerg Apr 10, 2009 6:31:55	Forum etiquette point: you really should only post the same thread once, in one forum, and definitely not repost it to multiple forums on the boards. It's okay to err on the side of posting it in the most general forum, if you're not sure where it belongs; the VCLs will move it as appropriate.
#6 entropy_judge Apr 10, 2009 15:40:15	1. Trade. Since you have to go from point A to point B anyway, and everything is expensive or unavailable at point B because of whatever disaster that has befallen them requiring your assistance, why not bring a few trade goods, maybe on a pack horse or a two-horse cart (which you could also sell), making a few gp. I'm thinking specifically of some of the trade goods listed on page 71 of the Draconomicon. Better yet, find some already established traders (guys who are known in the areas, who know what's wanted and where) and offer yourselves as guards. Depending on the area, guards can get pretty rich comparatively speaking, especially if they're successful at what they do.
#7 MrCustomer Apr 10, 2009 16:14:12	1- Trading is good, but there is a finite amount that your character can carry, you will need to carry that stuff during your entire adventure, and aside from the extra wieght, it will also be using up space used to carry your other supplies, not to mention any loot you find on the way. It's possible that you might have to toss your merchandise to carry more valuable loots that you find on the way. One would need to take small, high end items (such as gems, expensive spices etc) which is also riskier. Another alternative is to trade in goods that you gather along the way. For instance pelts from rare beasties, and other items from your spoils. (minatour horns, displacer beast hide, etc) Salt is often overlooked commodity, aside from it's value as a trade comodity, it can be used to cure meats. Not only can cured meats be used to keep up the food supply while traveling and adventuring by perserving meat from hunting, but also those meats, especially from creatures that are delecacies, be sold when the party reaches a town. Worst case scenerio from this investment is the savings from curing and preparing some of your own food for storage while traveling. -Working when you are in town is a good way to both save money (by paying for your stay) but to also make some extra money on the side at the same time. Camping outside is cheaper, but turns little profit. Use the skills and abilities your character has to earn money. Aside from trades, Skills like Heal can be used (especially in towns without a healer) to earn profits. A Cleric (or even a Paladin) can offer their services giving out blessings and teachings, preforming rituals (non-magical like baptisms, marrages, rites of passages etc using the Religion skill) and get donations, they might be able to stay for free room and board at a temple that follows their deity as well. Paladins precide as judges in some communities (smaller settlements where there aren't local courts etc, people will often see the Paladin as an authority figure who has the legal authority to settle such matters) A fighter can work as a Guard, or extra muscle, or make some coin as a prize fighter, or some odd jobs where a fighter might be needed (such as collecting a dept or exacting revenge for a client). Wizards and warlocks can use their Arcana to find work helping another wizard with research, teaching at a local school, particularly in larger cities. A Caster could find work simply making Residium from old enchanted items for others (they provide the components) or enchanting items for a price. Wise characters will of course ask for rewards other then treasure when working for others when available. IF a Noble sends them on a mission, asking for a grant of land can be a wise choice. While it doesn't pay emmediatly, it can be invested in and subsequently turn a profit for the character. Adventurers being broke is realistic, after all if they were rich they would do the smart thing and settle down rather then continue risking their lives in dangerous work.
#8 RPJesus Apr 11, 2009 2:19:08	There doesn't seem to be very much money available in 4e. Isn't that entirely the DM's decision? By the book I wouldn't know, but there's no reason you can't have the random orc minions be carrying 100 gold each or whatever.
#9 djchrisblue Apr 11, 2009 11:47:38	3. Mug NPCs. (I only mention this one because it was very popular with my classmates in high school). If people are even considering this, then there's a serious poverty problem, and no wonder people are being drawn to a life of crime. If people are even considering this as a viable option, there is a serious WEALTH (not poverty) problem. I'm pretty sure a week's wages for the average NPC is a silver piece; from what I understand they don't have those silver on them, they have goods, clothes, tools etc worth a silver piece, so mugging a commoner is going to get you a rusty bootknife, several hunks of cheese or a hammer. Unless you are talking mugging the noble folks, which tend to be fewer and better connected--despite losing the fight against you, they will probably get you a reputation in cities and prevent you from accessing resources (ie, shops to sell your loot) inside towns. A lot of the wealth a PC gets is from adventuring, not necessarily through purchase. Something you might try that my DM does: every player turns in a wishlist of items/rituals/equipment from the basic books that they want (within a few levels of their PC). Next time we find a cache of gold or are rewarded for a quest by a noble, we just happen to find that *insert equipment* from the Adventurer's vault that the party rogue was eyeing and a Ritual Book with the *insert ritual* our party shaman wanted... peace