Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 25, 2008 14:38:22	I do not like the Monk class. I greatly enjoy the concept the class is intended to present, but I do not agree with the execution at all. Admissably, my reasons for this are, from what I can tell, rather odd. I do not like the monk, not because of power issues, but because of the class itself, independent of the external game structure. I do not like the grab-bag of oddball abilities that I can't make heads or tails of (I'm really good at martial arts, so I can.... talk to anything?), I do not like the Lawful restriction (you really shouldn't have to be lawful by nature to study and excel at martial arts- it requires regular practice, yes, but doesn't *have* to extend to the rest of your life), and I do not like the inability to return to the class after doing something else, which I can't make any sense of any more than I can make sense of the other two things. Unfortunately, so far as I know, there has been no good unarmed fighting alternative presented in the SRDs. Relating to this, I have a character concept that is dear and beloved to me- one called 'Karna'. Karna is supposed to be an unarmed, unarmored hand-to-hand non-grappling combatant who functions on a basis of speed and durability. Karna is: Human. An unarmed fighter. A martial artist. Fast. Chaotic. Good. Very skilled in combat. Independent. Effective (theoretically). Good at avoiding getting hit. Able to take hits she can't avoid. Tactically intelligent. Karna is not: Lawful. Exalted. Caring a fistful of gravel about any deity in particular. Ascetic. Monster-strong. Going to wear big clanky suits of armor. Sneak attacking. So. Without some sort of substitution for the Monk capabilities (DR penetration, improved damage, Wis ->AC, et cetera), she's really not feasible. Recently I joined in an Eberron campaign (level 12, all WotCo printed materials legal), though it self-destructed rather rapidly, and I managed to at least make Karna semi-competently.... but I really didn't succeed nearly as well as I would have needed to in order to continue on- which you'll see later in this post (or thread if I fill up too much post with other yammerings). The resources I have on hand are, to my understanding, a bit limited compared to what you-all have to work with, and I'm not really, unfortunately, willing to use anything I don't actually have a copy of so I can at least back up whatever wild claims I wind up making. So, first, a list of resources: Books PHB I & II DMG MM Races (Stone, Wild, Destiny) Complete (Warrior, Arcane, Scoundrel) Tome of Battle Tome of Magic Magic Item Compendium Spell Compendium Weapons of Legacy
#2 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 25, 2008 14:51:15	As a few additional notes: I am actually fairly keen on keeping as much fighter as possible without hurting the build. I feel Fighter is an undervalued and underused class specifically because of the lack of extensive feat trees to take advantage of its class feature of tons of feats. Additionally, it's good to be able to say that Karna's a Fighter instead of a Monk. I just kind of feel good about calling her a Fighter rather than something else. If it has to go, though, it has to go, so oh well. For equipment, Karna basically goes with a magic item to enhance Dex, one to enhance Wis, and that's it. All the rest is for armor-class-boosting-stuff- which, really, is the primary purpose in giving her Dex/Wis enhancers- though, the Dex enhancers boost her accuracy and Combat Reflexes too. I've been sitting a Battle Cloak on her shoulders (+4 armor to AC with 3 free disarms a day and it can turn into a +1/+1 quarterstaff at will, though why you'd do that last one is beyond me), and a Ring of Adamantine Touch on one hand- beyond that, it's just AC stuff, a Watch Lamp to cover the lack of Darkvision, and Boots of Striding and Springing. Whatever is done, to stay true to concept, the most important things are: Chaotic Good Unarmed and Unarmored Speed and Durability The major issues facing the build so far are: Overcoming/bypassing DR AC is a little low even in an average-powered game Could use more HP
#3 annoyinglizardvoice Mar 25, 2008 16:24:06	Have you had a look at the spycraft book. Its got loads of unarmed combat feats that you might be able to mod for your games.
#4 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 25, 2008 16:34:10	The resources I have on hand are, to my understanding, a bit limited compared to what you-all have to work with, and I'm not really, unfortunately, willing to use anything I don't actually have a copy of so I can at least back up whatever wild claims I wind up making. So, first, a list of resources: Books PHB I & II DMG MM Races (Stone, Wild, Destiny) Complete (Warrior, Arcane, Scoundrel) Tome of Battle Tome of Magic Magic Item Compendium Spell Compendium Weapons of Legacy
#5 Zappy Mar 25, 2008 16:41:00	Personnally I'd talk to your DM. If you explain yourself he might let you drop the allignment restriction. It does seem to me that is about the only thing from your description that doesn't match. Whereas yes they have Knowledge religion as a class skill they really aren't dependant on it. I thought there were a few monk prestige classes in the Complete Warrior.
#6 wih Mar 25, 2008 18:20:50	Have you considered an Unarmed Swordsage?
#7 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 26, 2008 0:45:27	I had, indeed, considered going full-on Swordsage, but a Swordsage gets a fraction of the feats and relies heavily on very supernatural-istic (when they aren't treated as supernatural) abilities. Karna is supposed to, later on, have a few of those, but her primary focus is on hitting someone a lot- not setting her hands on fire or teleporting or throwing a target sixty feet in five-foot increments or whatall else. I'd honestly rather have the ability to flurry as often as I feel like and be better at raw unarmed combat than have seven or ten abilities that I can use once per combat that do highly oddball, if useful things, even if they *do* work together. Karna's conceptual capabilities (by which I mean stuff that's how I think of the character concept, before applying limitations of the RPG system) are much more along the lines of Fighter feats than Martial class maneuvers- though a stance or two wouldn't hurt or be too far-fetched. Unfortunately, in terms of concept, this character actually has very little use for the martial maneuvers- they're just more useful than raging three times a day (and being fatigued after) or getting an experience penalty and having Stunning Fist. It's worth noting that I find no attraction in Stunning Fist or any of the wierd "ki" crap that Wizards put into the Ninja or the Monk prestiges. I did a bit of a rework earlier- discovered that the Duelist prestige class can cover the minor AC issues (Dex, Int, *and* Wis to AC? Yesplz.) by further adding a stat to the AC pile- though I'd really rather have it be Con that added. Oh well. I don't have too much time right now- I'll probably post up the rework tomorrow- but I'd like to see a little more crunch contribution out of some other posters.
#8 kouk Mar 26, 2008 2:07:37	Try the Character Optimization boards, because you seem to really want to optimize this guy...
#9 Zherog Mar 26, 2008 7:08:11	It's worth noting that I find no attraction in Stunning Fist or any of the wierd "ki" crap that Wizards put into the Ninja or the Monk prestiges. Note that without the "weird ki crap" you won't be able to bypass DR. I suggest you and your DM work together to create a new base class for your character.
#10 runestar Mar 26, 2008 7:42:10	A combination of warblade, monk and swordsage lvs might work. The gist is to start with warblade, splash 2 lvs of monk for good saves, bonus feats and to bump that stance at 4th lv up to IL5 so you can choose a 3rd lv stance. At lv9 and 12, take 1 lv of swordsage to splash support-oriented maneuvers. Afterwards, continue taking warblade until lv15, when you can finally enter master of nine. You will be relying on insightful strike, snap kick and single-hit strikes for your damage. Swordsage for defensive capabilities. At lv12, the build will look something like warblade8/monk2/swordsage2. Rough guide... Warblade1 - steel wind, sapphire blade, that will-save booster Monk1-2 (+3 to all saves, IUS, combat reflexes as bonus feats) Warblade2-4 (take absolute steel dance, wall of blades, iron heart surge) Warbade5-6 - insightful strike, maybe diamond blade nightmare? Swordsage1 (With IL5, you can take maneuvers of up to 3rd lv. Useful ones include cloak of deception, shadow jaunt, zephyr dance, counter charge, or any of the diamond mind save boosters if you do not already have them. You can finally take snap kick. Warblade7-8 - ??? Swordsage2 - a 4th lv maneuver, none noteworthy come to mind though. Alternatively, you can consider splashing 2 lvs of fighter (2 bonus feats are very tempting), but the drawback is that you end up further retarding your already stunted maneuver progression.
#11 the_shaman Mar 26, 2008 9:08:12	I'd suggest a mix of warblade, fighter (for a few extra feats - some of the nice OA unarmed combat feats were reprinted in CWarrior) and a few swordsage levels, using a barb level or PrC for extra speed. Personally, however, I'd go heavy on the warblade - 4 fighter levels would probably be enough - for the more martial maneuvers, HP and skills. This way you can: a) get a good number of feats to represent your combat style (IUS, SUS, , possilbly WF/WSpec/Wmastery with unarmed strikes or another weapon, improved trip/grapple/whatever, elusive target, defensive throw, possibly stunnings fist/pain touch/freezing the lifeblood, snap kick, weapon feats, etc.) b) get ok mobility and good speed through swordsage and warblade levels and maneuvers c) get decent defense and quite good HP despite your light armor. d) get an overall good BAB and possibly good damage with light weapons via Shadow blade.
#12 sunic_flames Mar 26, 2008 11:00:02	Is there some especially compelling reason why you stopped at an odd level of fighter? Because I can pretty much tell you flat out, that is completely pointless. As is going that high, especially for what you want. Maybe I read it wrong, but your post is coming across as wanting a monk, but without the few things that make monks worthwhile. I'm confused.
#13 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 27, 2008 1:08:18	Is there some especially compelling reason why you stopped at an odd level of fighter? Because I can pretty much tell you flat out, that is completely pointless. As is going that high, especially for what you want.[QUOTE/] Well, the thing is, if you don't have level 7 of fighter, you can't get level 8 of fighter.... Maybe I read it wrong, but your post is coming across as wanting a monk, but without the few things that make monks worthwhile. I'm confused. I think that depends on what you mean by 'the few things that make monks worthwhile'. There's probably a certain amount of confusion, too, by my reference to 'wierd "ki" things'. By that, I mean the oddball so-called-ki effects achieved through use of feats by dumping Stunning Blow uses. Things that the Monk has that I genuinely don't want/would rather have other stuff I can get easily from not being a monk include: Reduce Fall- the situations you really want to use this are almost invariably the ones where you *don't* have something right next to you which you could probably grab and hang onto instead of just not taking fall damage. Stunning Blow- If I'm making a two-handed flurry unarmed combatant, I can think of better ways to use my actions than to stun something until its action. Like, for instance, hitting it two or more times. Diamond Body/Perfect Body- Given that I'm running around with strong Fort saves, I don't see why I should be worrying that much about poison or disease to begin with. Tongue of the (I think Stars?)- I'm a martial artist, so I can speak with anything! ....wait, what the hell? Not only doesn't this fit the concept, I can't make sense of it in the first place. Turning into an Outsider at level 20- Again, doesn't fit concept and I can't make sense of it either. Quivering Palm- Most of the things I would want to use this against instead of beating them to death (or helping my allies beat them to death) would have pretty damn big Fort saves anyways. Or touching them would be bad. Very few weapon proficiencies- Part of the wonderfulness of being an unarmed fighter is the ability to take away your opponent's weapon and clobber them with it, possibly in the same round (I'm not sure of the feasibility of this one, having not gotten to *be* a player much, as opposed to a DM). Plus, the Monk flurry doesn't work with a 'non-monk' weapon, but the Snap Kick feat doesn't care what you're wielding- though it is, admissably, just another unarmed attack and not another weapon attack. No bonus feats- This means no Weapon Focus for improved attack accuracy- which also brings up: Cleric-grade attack progression, which I just beat all to hell with Fighter, Warblade, and/or any of a number of other combat-oriented classes with abilities I'll want more (personally) than the other ones here. D8 hit die. Fighter is D10. Yayness? Restricted diversification. Wait, you took a level in something other than Monk or a Monk prestige? I'm sorry, no more martial arts for you. Lawful. Just.... no. Not for this character, and not often at all with any other character either. Nevermind that it doesn't make too much sense. By contrast, things the Monk has that I want and am not getting if I go pure-fighter are few- Three good saves. This is hard to beat, except when you realize that I'm getting Fort as my good save, and dumping tons of stat into Dex and Wis, so kinda make up for it. Wisdom applies to AC- which I get by splashing/splatting/whatever two levels of Swordsage, since I'm not aware of any other way with the resources I have to manage this one. Class level bonus to AC-This is relatively negligible, considering we're talking a what- +5 AC at level 20? I'll take a hit like that for better offensive options along the lines of scads of feats. Fast movement- Oh well. Probably some way to make up for this, but if I need to, I can just cope. I prefer giving this up and getting feats and such to being stuck with the oddball abilities that fit neither the character nor any sense I can make. That's... pretty much it. Personally, I always thought the big point of the Monk was supposed to be 'Here's a good unarmed/unarmored combatant who isn't as heavily item-reliant as other characters', not 'Here's an unarmed/unarmored combatant and why don't you have eight or so oddball abilities that we really can't explain and a few of them are probably just here because we couldn't think of somewhere else to put them!' Which is, really, the sense I get out of the PHB Monk. I certainly have no problem with other people liking it, but regardless even of whether or not I like it, Monk is just not the right class to fit the character concept I'm going for. Moving on... What I'm looking at now is two levels each of Swordsage and Warblade in that order, and then eight Fighter and eight Duelist. That gives the full Two-weapon fighting base shrub (no defense, unarmed can't give a shield bonus- drat) the Weapon Focus set up to Greater Focus, Dodge and Mobility for the sake of Duelist (tho' there's nothing wrong with either of those feats either), the Superior Unarmed Strike setup, including Snap Kick, and leaving two feats more at 15 and 18 respectively (probably gonna use Versatile Unarmed Strike and MWM for slashing, or MWM for bludgeoning and then Acrobat Charge). Still wondering if there's something I missed for getting that Wisdom for AC without splashing a class, or at least some other way of getting Uncanny Dodge. I'm half-tempted to swap Swordsage back to Monk just for the sake of getting two-feat equivalence and a bonus (IUS + Flurry + Evasion), but I'm really hating that leveling restriction and the maneuvers and stance are probably a better option, given Swordsage still gives me free Weapon Focus and a minor Initiative bonus, as well as having (I think) more skill points than Monk.
#14 runestar Mar 27, 2008 2:17:38	What I'm looking at now is two levels each of Swordsage and Warblade in that order, and then eight Fighter and eight Duelist. That gives the full Two-weapon fighting base shrub (no defense, unarmed can't give a shield bonus- drat) the Weapon Focus set up to Greater Focus, Dodge and Mobility for the sake of Duelist (tho' there's nothing wrong with either of those feats either), the Superior Unarmed Strike setup, including Snap Kick, and leaving two feats more at 15 and 18 respectively (probably gonna use Versatile Unarmed Strike and MWM for slashing, or MWM for bludgeoning and then Acrobat Charge). You may consider using the cobra monk variant from UA, it gives dodge and mobility as bonus feats instead of stunning fist and deflect arrows, IIRC, so you qualify for swashbuckler more readily. Maybe the kung-fu genius feat as well? Makes the monk's AC bonus int-based, so you get twice the return on boosting int (with duelist, you eventually add int mod to AC twice), and can now afford to dump wis. Swashbuckler3 gives int mod to damage and free weapon focus. Swordsage paves the way for shadow blade, netting you dex mod to damage as well. Are you that great a fan of greater weapon focus? Seems like a waste of so many fighter lvs (considering that melee weapon mastery has no fighter lv requirement, so you really just need 4 fighter lvs. Maybe take them for your unarmed strikes, and get an aptitude spiked chain so you can apply your weapon spec feats to both. Though I would just dump fighter. Note that you can TWF with a 2-handed weapon and unarmed strikes (by designating your kicks) and still get snap kick. Then take adaptable flanker and vexing flanker from PHB2. This lets you flank with yourself (because of your 10-ft reach), and provides a constant +4 to-hit bonus, and in turn activates warblade's battle cunning ability at lv7, giving you int mod to damage again. The basic build would look something like monk2/swashbuckler3/warblade7. Readily playable right out of the box at lv12, you get int mod to AC and the equivalent of int mod to damage twice (so max out int and keep it maxed out every chance you get). Alternatively, swap out monk2 with swordsage2 for more maneuvers. Unfortunately, it seems like there are not enough lvs to squeeze everything in, so some sacrifices might need to be made...
#15 Zherog Mar 27, 2008 7:11:02	Stunning Blow- If I'm making a two-handed flurry unarmed combatant, I can think of better ways to use my actions than to stun something until its action. Like, for instance, hitting it two or more times. You can use Stunning Fist during your full attack. So, for example, you can opt to stun the target with your first attack; they then drop everything they're holding (the best part of stun, in my opinion) and lose their Dex mod to AC until the start of your next turn. If you have a rogue in the party, it's a wonderful bit of teamwork synergy, because it allows the rogue to sneak attack without worrying about flanking. As to your problem... I still think your best option is to figure out what you want the character to be able to do, and then work with your DM to make a whole new "brawler" class.
#16 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 27, 2008 12:43:50	Huh. Guess I was misreading the stunning blow stuff. Odd that, I usually don't make that kind of mistake. Afraid UA isn't an option here- not only do most DMs I know disallow it for internal/external balance issues, I don't own a copy either. Swashbuckler? I hadn't caught that, I'll have to take a look. Thanks for the suggestion. The weapon focus is actually semi-secondary. Mostly I have it for Specialization (which it looks like I wouldn't need so much with Swashbuckler, that's good to see), and to fill Fighter feat slots that I can't see things I want to do with more than make up the attack penalty for Snap Kick flurrying. Afraid that zweihandering and two-weaponing isn't something this character would do, though that's certainly an option I'll have to remember for other characters later- thanks a lot for sharing. I'm alright with some sacrifices as long as the build comes out overall better- I like your Swordsage/Swash/Warblade suggestion, actually. Would make a good lead in to dual-prestiging Duelist/Shadow Blade if I decide that's what I want to do. Zherog- That's the best bet too, I think, but I haven't run across a DM willing to do that yet. Keep in mind that this is to be a character build 'on-tap'- one I can supposedly bring to nearly any DM and get okayed.
#17 Zherog Mar 27, 2008 12:52:56	Zherog- That's the best bet too, I think, but I haven't run across a DM willing to do that yet. Keep in mind that this is to be a character build 'on-tap'- one I can supposedly bring to nearly any DM and get okayed. Interesting. A lot of DMs I know - including me - allow it, especially if the other option is to multiclass into a whole bunch of classes so you can get what you want. I can definitely see how it would be a problem, though, with portability.
#18 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 27, 2008 13:21:04	It seems to be more an issue of time and effort to spare, not one of acceptability. Most of the DMs I've had have been fairly busy people overall, and were already straining their spare time just running and maintaining a campaign.
#19 sunic_flames Mar 27, 2008 13:24:09	Without the two hander (or reach tripper) approach you pretty much have to go ToB to do anything useful. One handed weapons (unarmed strikes are for this purpose) just don't hit hard enough. And defense means nothing if you can't convince the enemies to attack you aka threaten them enough to draw fire.
#20 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 28, 2008 14:50:56	Alright. So, having waited most of a day and seen nothing to contraindicate what I'm going with, I'll go ahead and lay it out as a level progression.