Mounted Combat Questions - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Mounted Combat Questions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
NinjaPlease
Aug 13, 2009 16:42:41 I am about to start a new campaign tonight and I am playing a Dwarf Pursuing Avenger. I took mounted combat feat, and I am happily seated on my shiny new boar. It even has that new boar smell. My question about mounted combat is how do my avenger powers work or do they. For example:

Overwhelming strike: You shift 1 square and slide the target 1 square into the space you occupied.

example 1: x = empty squares; E= enemy; B= Boar Mount

xxxExxx --> xBBxxxx
xBBxxxx --> xBBxxxx
xBBxxxx --> xxExxxx

That doesn't seem quite right. Or would there be limitations on using it like this:

example 2:

xxxExxx --> xxxxxxx
xBBxxxx --> BBExxxx
xBBxxxx --> BBxxxxx

Distracting Flare: You become invisible and move your speed. You are invisible until the end of the movement.

or

Resonant Escape: An enemy hits or misses you with an attack. You teleport 3 squares.

I wouldn't want to leave my mount behind. Would your mount benefit from this, or should I avoid any powers like this since I am mounted?

I guess same question would apply for our warlock with the Fey switch power or the swordmage and his transposing thingy he does. Will I teleport and they end up on my mount? Does the mount come with me? I don't want to bog down game play tonight with trying to house rule all this stuff. Has anyone played with mounts before to see how they effect game play and mechanics like this?
#2
NinjaPlease
Aug 13, 2009 17:37:25 Game starts in 1/2 hour, anyone here able to help? If not I'm just going to avoid powers that may get tricky and tell others not to target me with things like that. We'll just play it as RAW and if the power says 1 creature than it's the mount or I (and only the mount if it doesn't say same size as you). Oh well, I should be mobile enough on my own. Still, any help would be appreciated.
#3
freylorn
Aug 13, 2009 18:42:39 Anything along the lines of Overwhelming Strike works exactly as written - you shift 1 space, and then move the enemy 1 square into a square you occupied. So for your examples, #1 would not work because you have shifted the enemy more than 1 square. Example #2, however, is 100% correct.

I don't recall exactly how teleportation powers work on mounts, but I know the DMG has rules in it for mounted combat. I'd check there first. AV had some too, if I recall properly.
#4
NinjaPlease
Aug 13, 2009 18:44:46 Yeah I've been pouring through them (DMG 46-47) taught me a lot, but I didn't see anything regarding teleportation. I'll double check though. I figured as much with the power I illustrated, just wanted to make sure. Thanks!

Maybe I can pray for a feat that lets mount participate in powers as well.
#5
NinjaPlease
Aug 13, 2009 18:54:19 Rereading mounted combat in DMG I think I answered my own question. Is teleporting considered forced movement? It says specifically that if an attack that forces movement targets you but not the mount you can choose for your mount to also be affected, so that you and your mount continue to move together. If you don't want your mount to be affected, you can be pushed off your mount if the forced movement carries you out of the mount's space.

If teleporting counts as forced movement than I could see it working. :D
#6
freylorn
Aug 13, 2009 18:56:42 Hoo boy, that's a can of worms and a half.

There's a huge debate on these forums as to whether or not teleportation should be considered forced movement - by RAW though, it is not.

I'll check AV and see if I can find anything for teleportation/mount interaction for you right now, I'll post again momentarily and let you know my findings.

EDIT: Nothing in AV that I can see, although I could swear I've read a ruling on it before.
#7
Dirge-Overdrive
Aug 13, 2009 19:10:06 Teleporting isn't forced movement, as forced movement consists of pushes/pulls/slides. That having been said, it shouldn't be too disrupting for the DM to allow it. Just don't push your luck with it (i.e teleporting on your boar up onto a catwalk). I sort of remember there being a feat or feature that allows a rider to bring its mount along with them... but I could be wrong about that.

As for the shifting overwhelming strike question... you are restricted both by the distance of the slide and its destination. So example 2 will work, while example 1 doesn't work because you can't slide the enemy that far.

Wearing some Rushing Cleats (thereby increasing the slide distance by 1) will open up new tactical possibilities while riding your boar and will allow example 2.
#8
Istaran
Aug 13, 2009 19:15:30 I believe the only specific case allowing mounted teleportation is the mount slot item that allows a mount to bring you with it when it teleports, called the Nightmare Saddle I believe.
#9
NinjaPlease
Aug 13, 2009 19:24:14 Awesome, rushing cleats would be perfect for my character. Thanks for the idea. We are discussing it now at the table and the DM doesn't have a problem with mount and I using things like Fey Switch. We'll just have to get creative with a pulley system if it comes to climbing and such. I wouldn't take advantage of a good enough thing. I'm already going to blow the tables mind here in a second when I charge in with Whirlwind Charge and the boar's Gore Attack (that will push 2 squares and knock prone)! Fingers crossed. :D
#10
NinjaPlease
Aug 13, 2009 19:26:08
I believe the only specific case allowing mounted teleportation is the mount slot item that allows a mount to bring you with it when it teleports, called the Nightmare Saddle I believe.

yep level 15! That answers that question. Le sigh, rewind. lol Time to tell DM thanks anyway, but I'll just have to save for the saddle. Hopefully there is a feat (probably paragon) that will let you share effects with your mount. Or one that let you increase its stats a little bit as you level up. It looks like it may get expensive trying to get newer higher level mounts. And I really don't want to ride anything but the boar. He appeals to me.
#11
AbdulAlhazred
Aug 13, 2009 21:03:05 Mounts are a bit like flying. Having one mounted PC who has invested a lot into it creates some challenges for the DM. What happens when it comes to a point where the mount simply cannot follow? That character is gimped. Or else the whole campaign needs to account for that one PC and his mount. This is why the paladin no longer has a charger.

That being said I would expect 4e will eventually come up with some solutions for those who really want to run games where mounted combat is significant. Currently I think they envisage mounts only being used in a fairly peripheral way. Basically they can get you where you want to go, maybe you can fight a bit on the way there, but most adventuring is going to take place on foot.
#12
freylorn
Aug 13, 2009 22:32:21 The paladin I've drawn up for my wife's game is planning on going a mounted combat route - the way I see things though, it's better than in 3.5 simply because it requires less investment. It's not like I'm building towards Spirited Charge here - just taking Mounted Combat as a feat, buying a mount, and grabbing the level 1/11/21 scaling Resist All mount item to keep it alive.

Bottom line being, even if there are some places mounts can't go, the character shouldn't be too gimped. Plus, I find it hard to justify not being able to use a mount in most places. After all, as soon as the DM places at least one large monster on the table in an encounter, that usually proves large monsters can navigate the area - hence, mounts should be fair game.
#13
Dirge-Overdrive
Aug 14, 2009 0:59:11 Just make sure she sets her sights on something that actually wants to go down into a dungeon.
Horse? Not so much.
Dire Wolf? Maybe.
Blade Spider? Hell yeah. It even has a climb speed!
#14
AbdulAlhazred
Aug 14, 2009 9:11:07
The paladin I've drawn up for my wife's game is planning on going a mounted combat route - the way I see things though, it's better than in 3.5 simply because it requires less investment. It's not like I'm building towards Spirited Charge here - just taking Mounted Combat as a feat, buying a mount, and grabbing the level 1/11/21 scaling Resist All mount item to keep it alive.

Bottom line being, even if there are some places mounts can't go, the character shouldn't be too gimped. Plus, I find it hard to justify not being able to use a mount in most places. After all, as soon as the DM places at least one large monster on the table in an encounter, that usually proves large monsters can navigate the area - hence, mounts should be fair game.

Right, and I think that is exactly why 4e doesn't have a lot of feats, PPs, class features, etc dealing with mounts and mounted combat. Some minor resource investment gets you a mount which is useful, but never central to the character (at least mechanically).

I'm not too convinced by the "if large creatures can do it" argument. I would never claim to be an accomplished equestrian by any means, but my modest experience with horses tells me there are a lot of places an ogre could go that would be impossible for a horse or a similar type of mount. I mean horses can negotiate some pretty rough terrain, more than you might think, but they cannot climb. Obviously there are plenty of more fantastical mounts that will have less problems. Hard to say what a giant boar can do or what it will put up with.
#15
freylorn
Aug 14, 2009 10:10:20 Exactly - I'm not claiming horses specifically, although there's rules for the penalties a creature like a horse takes while in a dungeon (-2 on attack rolls due to not being used to the environment, I believe.) I'm just saying that the main reason I hear given for why a mount can't go into or can't navigate a dungeon is "It's too big, it can't navigate properly."

Just pointing out how little sense that makes as soon as another large figure gets put down - and it makes even less sense if there's a huge involved somewhere!
#16
AbdulAlhazred
Aug 15, 2009 8:25:40
Exactly - I'm not claiming horses specifically, although there's rules for the penalties a creature like a horse takes while in a dungeon (-2 on attack rolls due to not being used to the environment, I believe.) I'm just saying that the main reason I hear given for why a mount can't go into or can't navigate a dungeon is "It's too big, it can't navigate properly."

Just pointing out how little sense that makes as soon as another large figure gets put down - and it makes even less sense if there's a huge involved somewhere!

Quite true. Of course the majority of dungeon designers don't consider those kinds of things much, lol.
#17
imperial_warth
Aug 15, 2009 19:50:43 Concerning the blade spider.

I am planning to work towards this mount while making a fighter/wizard hibred. For fighter abilities I was thinking of taking a lot of the close burst attacks.

When do a close burst melee attack, would the spider make an attack against every enemy in the burst because of its mounted bonus ability? I am leaning towards no since that seems horrably askew.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 NinjaPlease Aug 13, 2009 16:42:41	I am about to start a new campaign tonight and I am playing a Dwarf Pursuing Avenger. I took mounted combat feat, and I am happily seated on my shiny new boar. It even has that new boar smell. My question about mounted combat is how do my avenger powers work or do they. For example: Overwhelming strike: You shift 1 square and slide the target 1 square into the space you occupied. example 1: x = empty squares; E= enemy; B= Boar Mount xxxExxx --> xBBxxxx xBBxxxx --> xBBxxxx xBBxxxx --> xxExxxx That doesn't seem quite right. Or would there be limitations on using it like this: example 2: xxxExxx --> xxxxxxx xBBxxxx --> BBExxxx xBBxxxx --> BBxxxxx Distracting Flare: You become invisible and move your speed. You are invisible until the end of the movement. or Resonant Escape: An enemy hits or misses you with an attack. You teleport 3 squares. I wouldn't want to leave my mount behind. Would your mount benefit from this, or should I avoid any powers like this since I am mounted? I guess same question would apply for our warlock with the Fey switch power or the swordmage and his transposing thingy he does. Will I teleport and they end up on my mount? Does the mount come with me? I don't want to bog down game play tonight with trying to house rule all this stuff. Has anyone played with mounts before to see how they effect game play and mechanics like this?
#2 NinjaPlease Aug 13, 2009 17:37:25	Game starts in 1/2 hour, anyone here able to help? If not I'm just going to avoid powers that may get tricky and tell others not to target me with things like that. We'll just play it as RAW and if the power says 1 creature than it's the mount or I (and only the mount if it doesn't say same size as you). Oh well, I should be mobile enough on my own. Still, any help would be appreciated.
#3 freylorn Aug 13, 2009 18:42:39	Anything along the lines of Overwhelming Strike works exactly as written - you shift 1 space, and then move the enemy 1 square into a square you occupied. So for your examples, #1 would not work because you have shifted the enemy more than 1 square. Example #2, however, is 100% correct. I don't recall exactly how teleportation powers work on mounts, but I know the DMG has rules in it for mounted combat. I'd check there first. AV had some too, if I recall properly.
#4 NinjaPlease Aug 13, 2009 18:44:46	Yeah I've been pouring through them (DMG 46-47) taught me a lot, but I didn't see anything regarding teleportation. I'll double check though. I figured as much with the power I illustrated, just wanted to make sure. Thanks! Maybe I can pray for a feat that lets mount participate in powers as well.
#5 NinjaPlease Aug 13, 2009 18:54:19	Rereading mounted combat in DMG I think I answered my own question. Is teleporting considered forced movement? It says specifically that if an attack that forces movement targets you but not the mount you can choose for your mount to also be affected, so that you and your mount continue to move together. If you don't want your mount to be affected, you can be pushed off your mount if the forced movement carries you out of the mount's space. If teleporting counts as forced movement than I could see it working. :D
#6 freylorn Aug 13, 2009 18:56:42	Hoo boy, that's a can of worms and a half. There's a huge debate on these forums as to whether or not teleportation should be considered forced movement - by RAW though, it is not. I'll check AV and see if I can find anything for teleportation/mount interaction for you right now, I'll post again momentarily and let you know my findings. EDIT: Nothing in AV that I can see, although I could swear I've read a ruling on it before.
#7 Dirge-Overdrive Aug 13, 2009 19:10:06	Teleporting isn't forced movement, as forced movement consists of pushes/pulls/slides. That having been said, it shouldn't be too disrupting for the DM to allow it. Just don't push your luck with it (i.e teleporting on your boar up onto a catwalk). I sort of remember there being a feat or feature that allows a rider to bring its mount along with them... but I could be wrong about that. As for the shifting overwhelming strike question... you are restricted both by the distance of the slide and its destination. So example 2 will work, while example 1 doesn't work because you can't slide the enemy that far. Wearing some Rushing Cleats (thereby increasing the slide distance by 1) will open up new tactical possibilities while riding your boar and will allow example 2.
#8 Istaran Aug 13, 2009 19:15:30	I believe the only specific case allowing mounted teleportation is the mount slot item that allows a mount to bring you with it when it teleports, called the Nightmare Saddle I believe.
#9 NinjaPlease Aug 13, 2009 19:24:14	Awesome, rushing cleats would be perfect for my character. Thanks for the idea. We are discussing it now at the table and the DM doesn't have a problem with mount and I using things like Fey Switch. We'll just have to get creative with a pulley system if it comes to climbing and such. I wouldn't take advantage of a good enough thing. I'm already going to blow the tables mind here in a second when I charge in with Whirlwind Charge and the boar's Gore Attack (that will push 2 squares and knock prone)! Fingers crossed. :D
#10 NinjaPlease Aug 13, 2009 19:26:08	I believe the only specific case allowing mounted teleportation is the mount slot item that allows a mount to bring you with it when it teleports, called the Nightmare Saddle I believe. yep level 15! That answers that question. Le sigh, rewind. lol Time to tell DM thanks anyway, but I'll just have to save for the saddle. Hopefully there is a feat (probably paragon) that will let you share effects with your mount. Or one that let you increase its stats a little bit as you level up. It looks like it may get expensive trying to get newer higher level mounts. And I really don't want to ride anything but the boar. He appeals to me.
#11 AbdulAlhazred Aug 13, 2009 21:03:05	Mounts are a bit like flying. Having one mounted PC who has invested a lot into it creates some challenges for the DM. What happens when it comes to a point where the mount simply cannot follow? That character is gimped. Or else the whole campaign needs to account for that one PC and his mount. This is why the paladin no longer has a charger. That being said I would expect 4e will eventually come up with some solutions for those who really want to run games where mounted combat is significant. Currently I think they envisage mounts only being used in a fairly peripheral way. Basically they can get you where you want to go, maybe you can fight a bit on the way there, but most adventuring is going to take place on foot.
#12 freylorn Aug 13, 2009 22:32:21	The paladin I've drawn up for my wife's game is planning on going a mounted combat route - the way I see things though, it's better than in 3.5 simply because it requires less investment. It's not like I'm building towards Spirited Charge here - just taking Mounted Combat as a feat, buying a mount, and grabbing the level 1/11/21 scaling Resist All mount item to keep it alive. Bottom line being, even if there are some places mounts can't go, the character shouldn't be too gimped. Plus, I find it hard to justify not being able to use a mount in most places. After all, as soon as the DM places at least one large monster on the table in an encounter, that usually proves large monsters can navigate the area - hence, mounts should be fair game.
#13 Dirge-Overdrive Aug 14, 2009 0:59:11	Just make sure she sets her sights on something that actually wants to go down into a dungeon. Horse? Not so much. Dire Wolf? Maybe. Blade Spider? Hell yeah. It even has a climb speed!
#14 AbdulAlhazred Aug 14, 2009 9:11:07	The paladin I've drawn up for my wife's game is planning on going a mounted combat route - the way I see things though, it's better than in 3.5 simply because it requires less investment. It's not like I'm building towards Spirited Charge here - just taking Mounted Combat as a feat, buying a mount, and grabbing the level 1/11/21 scaling Resist All mount item to keep it alive. Bottom line being, even if there are some places mounts can't go, the character shouldn't be too gimped. Plus, I find it hard to justify not being able to use a mount in most places. After all, as soon as the DM places at least one large monster on the table in an encounter, that usually proves large monsters can navigate the area - hence, mounts should be fair game. Right, and I think that is exactly why 4e doesn't have a lot of feats, PPs, class features, etc dealing with mounts and mounted combat. Some minor resource investment gets you a mount which is useful, but never central to the character (at least mechanically). I'm not too convinced by the "if large creatures can do it" argument. I would never claim to be an accomplished equestrian by any means, but my modest experience with horses tells me there are a lot of places an ogre could go that would be impossible for a horse or a similar type of mount. I mean horses can negotiate some pretty rough terrain, more than you might think, but they cannot climb. Obviously there are plenty of more fantastical mounts that will have less problems. Hard to say what a giant boar can do or what it will put up with.
#15 freylorn Aug 14, 2009 10:10:20	Exactly - I'm not claiming horses specifically, although there's rules for the penalties a creature like a horse takes while in a dungeon (-2 on attack rolls due to not being used to the environment, I believe.) I'm just saying that the main reason I hear given for why a mount can't go into or can't navigate a dungeon is "It's too big, it can't navigate properly." Just pointing out how little sense that makes as soon as another large figure gets put down - and it makes even less sense if there's a huge involved somewhere!
#16 AbdulAlhazred Aug 15, 2009 8:25:40	Exactly - I'm not claiming horses specifically, although there's rules for the penalties a creature like a horse takes while in a dungeon (-2 on attack rolls due to not being used to the environment, I believe.) I'm just saying that the main reason I hear given for why a mount can't go into or can't navigate a dungeon is "It's too big, it can't navigate properly." Just pointing out how little sense that makes as soon as another large figure gets put down - and it makes even less sense if there's a huge involved somewhere! Quite true. Of course the majority of dungeon designers don't consider those kinds of things much, lol.
#17 imperial_warth Aug 15, 2009 19:50:43	Concerning the blade spider. I am planning to work towards this mount while making a fighter/wizard hibred. For fighter abilities I was thinking of taking a lot of the close burst attacks. When do a close burst melee attack, would the spider make an attack against every enemy in the burst because of its mounted bonus ability? I am leaning towards no since that seems horrably askew.