Now as a DM of another campaign, I created several items myself to give to either my NPCs or PCs but I always balanced the items by giving it some withdraw along with the benefit. During the fight, I didn't see any withdraw, most of my attacks failed and he kept winning grapple checks. Even when I used the power Mindwipe and bestowed four negative levels on him and that was when I barely beat his save by one. What's worse was that along with his high ability scores was his HP, a whopping 212 total!!! I know that monks have decent HP but come on, some high-level monsters don't have that much. So what should I do? should I quit the game, call my DM out, or just cheat myself because now I know that the rules don't apply.
so call him on it all you want...his game his rules, his NPC
I created an NPC once with 100 in each attribute +45 to everything...however that monster also had an achiles heel. When the PCs found out it took not 1 roll to stop the NPC...was it fair...not really but it was fun.
getting taken down by a badass monster/NPC doesn't egual cheating
During my fight, my 20th level psion was sent against a 20th level half-orc monk.
Monks are good at one thing, and one thing only - eliminating spellcasters. Even without the wonkiness of ability scores and custom gear, this matchup is pretty dicey for the psion. Was he really trying to take you out for some reason?
It kinda sounds like your upset that the DM ended the campaign in a way that didn't make you the King of Everything.
Just sayin'.
Monks are good at one thing, and one thing only - eliminating spellcasters. Even without the wonkiness of ability scores and custom gear, this matchup is pretty dicey for the psion. Was he really trying to take you out for some reason?
Dicey? Quicken Ultrablasts and keep using that power that made you completely invulnerable.
Now as a DM of another campaign...
Quick questions: did this DM play in that game, and if so, did you do anything that might make him feel screwed over enough to kill your character in his game?
While it is his game, roleplaying is a co-operative venture, when the players win, everybody wins. Ask your DM what was going on, and if he won't answer or won't work with you, walk away.
2. If you won, you would have gotten those items. He could have just used vow of poverty or some wishes or some templates or a backup spellcaster to up the stats of that guy.
3. Sometimes PC's are "meant to lose". I don't know if that was the case here (and if it was, your DM showed poor form in gloating...even if it wasn't, still poor form to gloat.) but an encounter is sometimes designed to put a pc down (usually in a more temporary way, and for capture or story elements). As a DM, I don't use these often (if at all) and I ALWAYS allow PC's to win if they somehow are able to (despite the odds stacked against them).
4. All this talk of "walk away, your DM is horrible" is very simplistic. Things such as friendships, a larger picture of the campaign, the characters, social dynamics, gaming dynamics, styles of gaming, and whether or not people are having fun overall (not just one single instance) come into play. DON'T walk away because of one poor gaming session. That's childish. DO walk away if you aren't having fun and haven't been having fun. Since you're near epic, my guess is that you've been having fun for the last 20 levels or so, or that there are other factors keeping you there.
5. Don't get all huffy. Even if you deserve to be (and you very well may in this instance, though there is still a chance that you might not) this doesn't usually lead to good gaming. Work WITH your DM to help develop an epic storyline (even if it is only the final session or two). Once D&D becomes adversarial, the fun gets sucked out like the air in a space shuttle with a broken window. Plus YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE if you are the player. This is for two reasons: a. The dm has ultimate power (see above) and b. Even if the DM doesn't play the "well then you are hit with 100 lightning bolts" angle, the very nature of adversarialness (if that's a word) is that you start playing AGAINST the person who is supposed to be FACILITATING your adventures/stories of heroism/etc. Start saying "you can't do that" or "show me that NPC's character sheet" and you might as well say the overarching point that is the elephant in the room "I don't trust you to tell a good story with my character". Which is just a hairs breadth from saying "I don't want you as a DM".
6. Players need to be a part of the story too. I've too often seen or heard about players who want every single thing spoonfed to them storywise. I am not accusing you of this, but if this is the case for you, some advice: Do things that drive your character...not just reacting to the DM's situations, but carve out situations of your own. This is not just "I refuse the adventure hook". This is making your own adventure hook, developing relationships and things of importance in this imaginary world. Can your DM use your fairy princess girlfriend against you? YES. AND HE SHOULD. Why? Because it involves your character in the plot. It makes it so you have a real reason to do something other than an offer of gold in a tavern. So become involved, let the DM use your living relatives, organizations you are head of or a member of, take your magic items, etc. Stories ebb and flow. You have to get knocked down so you can pick yourself back up and give the bad guys what for! Then, if it is a good DM, you'll not only get back the princess/item/organization/etc, but you'll get it back in an improved manner, or with greater rewards (princess is deeply devoted to you, magic item has been enhanced while thief had it and planned to use it on their own) or with greater story potential (thief had it enhanced with a curse that may affect your character and send you off on your next adventure...course you get the better of him in the end and your heroic deeds solve the adventure in a way the sabotaging thief didn't want...).
7. In conclusion...work with your DM. Trust your DM. Measure your fun across time. If you are having fun, great! If not...then, and only then, move on.
So what should I do? should I quit the game, call my DM out, or just cheat myself because now I know that the rules don't apply.
You should suck it up like an adult & realize that your DM is not cheating.
Why isn't your DM cheating? Easy. Because he's the DM. DMs are NOT subject to the same rules as players are. Not in reality anyways. Thus he has the ability to alter any rule, item, etc however he pleases in pursuit of a fun, challenging game (wether or not this works isn't relevant).
But, with your attitude, I'd think quitting would likely be best.
i would ask for the character sheet. and check it out. see if the items he crafted/created are in line with the money relative to level.
As a DM I'd just laugh at this request. Then I'd say "No".
My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing.
This, this right here. It's all you had to say. Congratulate him on his incredible Elric fanfiction, let him know that the copious amounts of male on male oily grappling was an interesting touch (both literally and figuratively,) and then move on to a real game with a real DM.
As a DM I'd just laugh at this request. Then I'd say "No".
Agreed.
Sometimes DM's don't even HAVE a sheet for an NPC or even HAVE a map for the dungeon. They have an idea and go with it.
It depends on the style of game you're playing.
D&D lends itself well to wargaming but also fast and loose roleplaying (depending on the interests and abilities of all at the table). In a more "Fast and loose" situation, I might DM with nothing more than AC and damage rolls decided ahead of time. HP? When the PC's have acted sufficiently heroically and enjoyed the battle, the blow that is sufficiently cool kills the NPC boss. To hit? it hits when cool and doesn't when they need a break or do something clever.
NOTE: I don't usually play this way, but I've seen it done, and with good results. The DM is there to challenge players and tell a fun story, first and foremost. Rules (in some situations, not all) can constrain this rather than add to it.
On the other hand, there are some fun "rules driven" games I've played in. These intended things to be more "boardgame" like during combat and were very tied to rules with a capital R. I prefer to DM this type. However, in my experience, the rules in D&D can be easily broken and playing to "WIN" even as a player is not fun. Even in these rules driven games it still has to be more about the concept/idea than the stats. The stats support the concept, they don't define it.
But, with your attitude, I'd think quitting would likely be best.
Not really called for.
My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing.
If this is true, then this is sad. Sad mainly for the point I have bolded. Either the DM expected more and is blaming you (which over 20 levels is kind of bizarre) or his DMing is really pathetic. My guess is that, as it takes two to tango, your group needs to take a bit of time discussing this and figuring out how to make your guys become more involved.
That's right. Spend time talking to one another. Figure out the problem and fix it.
Or you could just walk away. Sheesh. I'm honestly tired of seeing the easy, simple, and trite advice of "walk away" in this and the "What's a DM to do" forum. It's such wussy advice, frankly. Just about any piece of advice that is a simple "snap your fingers and it's fixed" is. (Because if it were really that simple the advice wouldn't be needed.)
But, maybe your right, I'm just being a sore loser, but I still feel kinda cheated out. My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing. Maybe he's just upping the difficulty to make the last fight more memorable and I'm just over-critical or he is fudging the rules just so he end up on top.
How tough do you think this battle was? Was it impossible to beat or did you have at least a chance of winning or running away? I would have a problem if every possible decision you made would result in certain death short of the DM rolling 1's all the time and you rolling 20's. I wouldn't have a problem if this were truly an epic battle even if the odds were stacked against you. How did the rest of the party do? Was this just a series of one on one fights or was it your party against a group of enemies?
If this is meant to be the last battle of the campaign and your characters will be forever retired, your goal should shift depending on what the situation is. Instead of winning, perhaps your goal may be to inflict as much damage as possible or cost the enemy as much resources as possible. Sunder every piece of equipment that you can. Concentrate on one enemy and just take it out. Stuff like that.
In any case, the campaign is over. If your DM constantly did this, then there is an issue. If this is just a one of thing and you enjoyed his campaign until this point, I wouldn't worry about it. Just put it behind you and look forward to the next one.
As for the 20's in ability scores? 20 isn't that impressive at 20th level. High stats are important for all character, but monks especially. But 20s in Int and Cha aren't going to do much for the monk in a fight so those 2 stats can be discounted. Str will help with damage/hit, dex and wis with AC, and Con with HPs, but again, 20 at 20 isn't that difficult to come buy with a basic average build and some +stat items, especially if only really counting 4 stats.
212 hps is exactly average HPs for a 20th level monk with 20con. Partly HP discrepancies was an issue with 3.X in that Con was universally an important stat and if you choose to have a low con, you will end up in a bad spot.
I understand you are upset because of the loss, believe me, I get plenty angry when I lose a fight too. But without knowing your powers, magic items, the circumstances of the fight, more about the game in general, etc, it's hard to say whether your DM cheated or the fight just went poorly for you.
Overall, if you truly feel the game is more his (the DM's) story than everyone's (the DM and the group) then you may be best served by leaving. However, I second Baalzephon's advise, talk first, walk second.
My friend found out because he's my roommate and my DM and I were playing in our room, he found out because during the fight, my DM would gloat about his NPC and show him the character sheet and that's how my friend found out about stats and HP. But, maybe your right, I'm just being a sore loser, but I still feel kinda cheated out. My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing. Maybe he's just upping the difficulty to make the last fight more memorable and I'm just over-critical or he is fudging the rules just so he end up on top.
If your DM is gloating, then you are not being a sore loser. He purposely made the character to kill your character. Any DM who purposely sets out to kill the party, regardless of reason, is a terrible DM.
Dicey? Quicken Ultrablasts and keep using that power that made you completely invulnerable.
Remember - L20 monk, here. First there's a 50% chance these quickened ultrablasts will work period (due to SR 30). Then the power has to deal with improved evasion - 24 average damage, or none if he saves (which is very likely, considering his will save is at least +17 vs DC 17 + Int bonus).
One use of quivering palm (DC 25) vs a typical psion and...it's game over.
My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing.
...wow.
My friend found out because he's my roommate and my DM and I were playing in our room, he found out because during the fight, my DM would gloat about his NPC and show him the character sheet and that's how my friend found out about stats and HP. But, maybe your right, I'm just being a sore loser, but I still feel kinda cheated out. My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing. Maybe he's just upping the difficulty to make the last fight more memorable and I'm just over-critical or he is fudging the rules just so he end up on top.
Step 1: Obtain knife.
Step 2: Stab DM repeatedly.
Step 3: Tell police he had it coming.
Yeah sorry man, your DM sucks.
If your DM is gloating, then you are not being a sore loser. He purposely made the character to kill your character. Any DM who purposely sets out to kill the party, regardless of reason, is a terrible DM.
I don't know. I think a lvl 20 Psion should be able to wipe the floor with anyone hitting with their fists. As Armisael pointed out, even with high Saves, you should have alternatives (Astral Constructs, terrain manipulation, teleport away and regroup).
Maybe your DM wanted to have you face the worst possible match-up possible and see if you could win as an underdog.
The DM likely made the monk knowing the psion's powers, strengths, weaknesses and designed a character to counter it. It isn't to hard to find some feats from a non core source book that is designed for specific situations. I am sure that a few of the monks feats are designed to counter/nullify the psion's strengths. I am also sure that the monk had feats designed to take advantage of the psions weak points.
Also the monk could have had items that gave bonuses to things such as saves, resistances, damage reduction, attack bonuses, or any extra bonuses. This things more unbalanced on top of stacked ability scores and stacked feats.
Also in 3.5 it is also extremely easy to make incredibly broken characters.
-It seems as if the players were not having fun (DM not doing his job)
-Characters not important to their own story (DM not doing his job)
-DM should make the story around the PC (shouldn't be other way around)
-DM shouldn't gloat about how he is kick butt (bad DMing)
-DM should be open to the group, not closed off
-Players should always have a chance to succeed. Players should never be in a situation where every choice leads to death (bad DMing)
To me it seems as if the DM did everything wrong, and this is why I have and still say that the OP should find a new DM and/or a new group.
That you've played that long is a testament to either your patience, friendship or lack of a better DM.
My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing.
the first time he would let this fall, I would ask why
the second time I would ask if he was sure he needed to do this
the third time I would take my sheet and leave, no point in wasting any more time playing with that sort of DM
---
I can't understand why some still feel the need to protect the DM instead of giving advice to you and if both players and DM weren't having fun, the campaign should have ended without such idiocy
My friend found out because he's my roommate and my DM and I were playing in our room, he found out because during the fight, my DM would gloat about his NPC and show him the character sheet and that's how my friend found out about stats and HP. But, maybe your right, I'm just being a sore loser, but I still feel kinda cheated out. My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing. Maybe he's just upping the difficulty to make the last fight more memorable and I'm just over-critical or he is fudging the rules just so he end up on top.
Quite often as a DM I find I need to do similair stunts to create an epic chalenge to the PCs. Players have the luxury of spending all their time and effort in creating and developing their PCs through the levels, and the DM is often hard put to make a chalenge while staying within the framework given to them.
Think of it another way, it took this kind of knavery for the NPC to beat your PC. That says alot about your PC.
The only complaint I would have is the attitude the DM is showing. It is very DM vs PC, and instead of the DM creating a challenge for the PCs he is showcasing his NPCs, which ultimately is nothing to be proud of, since NPCs don't need to do anything to earn their stuff. and are reverse engineered.
If you really wanted to say something to this DM, I would suggest writting the number 949,398,751 in large bold letters on a piece of paper and say, "look at me, I wrote a very large number on a piece of paper"
So what should I do? should I quit the game, call my DM out, or just cheat myself because now I know that the rules don't apply.
Firstly, if you find the game interesting and enjoyable you shouldn't be worried about whether your opponents are within the same rules boundries as the PC's.
Secondly, ask yourself and the other players if the DM is arbitrarily singling out YOUR PC or if all these 1-on-1 combats are against similar opponents with wildly outrageous stats.
Third, it sounds as if your DM might have his heart in the right place but is just going about it with bad form. He wants your PC's to be challenged by these one on one fights but is resorting to ludicrous, crude, arbitrary means to do so.
Fourth, don't just retaliate with accusations, quitting or cheating. COMMUNICATE dammit! TALK to the man and FIND OUT what's going on. Don't just frigging guess and blindly assume you're right. His reactions to your inquiries and what he tells you will provide the information you need.
Fifth, even if he IS an arbitrarily cheating wanker who gets his jollies by watching PC's wallow pitifully, unknowingly in punishing fights that he'll never let them win DO NOT stoop to his level. Don't quit without an attempt at a calm, rational discussion about the subject. Don't hit him with a rubber hose under a bare light bulb until he "confesses" crimes just to stop the pain. It may be bad form or even being a complete jerk - but it's not a crime and you don't need to come at the DM with accusations and attitude. Also, if it's not okay for HIM to cheat then it's NOT okay for you to do it either. It doesn't matter if he did it first or continues to do it after being asked to stop. IF YOU RESORT TO IT THEN YOU ARE AS BAD AS HE IS. In fact you're worse because you KNOW it's wrong and you're doing it willfully.
Grab the books, do some studying, and set up your own game.
During the course of the campaign, my DM has seen to it to create one-on-one battles for my party and I as we are getting close to the epic conclusion to his 3.5 edition campaign. During my fight, my 20th level psion was sent against a 20th level half-orc monk. During the battle, many of my powers were blocked by his character's various saves, most of them will-based until he finally defeated me with a series of grapples and pins that knocked my unconscious. At first, I thought that my loss was due to bad luck until my friend, another player in my group, told me about the monk. Apparently all the abilities scores were 20, giving the monk a +5 ability modifier to each ability. This was due to my DM created special items that gave his stats various bonuses.
Now as a DM of another campaign, I created several items myself to give to either my NPCs or PCs but I always balanced the items by giving it some withdraw along with the benefit. During the fight, I didn't see any withdraw, most of my attacks failed and he kept winning grapple checks. Even when I used the power Mindwipe and bestowed four negative levels on him and that was when I barely beat his save by one. What's worse was that along with his high ability scores was his HP, a whopping 212 total!!! I know that monks have decent HP but come on, some high-level monsters don't have that much. So what should I do? should I quit the game, call my DM out, or just cheat myself because now I know that the rules don't apply.
Can you post your build? Maybe you had a good chance, but weren't usingthe right powers?
Even with SR, you can use Swarm of Crystals (No save) or its brothers Shard. They don't have SR. I'll admit swarm sucks in range but unblockable.
1. DM cannot cheat
2. DM can be a bad DM.
During the battle, many of my powers were blocked by his character's various saves, most of them will-based until he finally defeated me with a series of grapples and pins that knocked my unconscious. At first, I thought that my loss was due to bad luck until my friend, another player in my group, told me about the monk. Apparently all the abilities scores were 20, giving the monk a +5 ability modifier to each ability. This was due to my DM created special items that gave his stats various bonuses.
First of all, Monks used to be IMMUNE to mind-affecting effects. They still are vs. ones targeting humanoids.
Second of all, all stats at 20 by lv 20 is trivial, and hardly optimal.
For an example, all 14s plus six +6 stat items. Easily doable by PCs.
Third, +5 from a stat is not much. That's only +17 on a save.
Now as a DM of another campaign, I created several items myself to give to either my NPCs or PCs but I always balanced the items by giving it some withdraw along with the benefit. During the fight, I didn't see any withdraw, most of my attacks failed and he kept winning grapple checks.
There are actual items in the DMG, y'know. Not sure what you're getting at, here.
Even when I used the power Mindwipe and bestowed four negative levels on him and that was when I barely beat his save by one.
That should have also lowered his saves and attacks -and thus, grapple checks - by 4.
What's worse was that along with his high ability scores was his HP, a whopping 212 total!!!
That's mediocre. Let's get a decent opponent from SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm
That being said, 20x4.5+20x5 = 190 already. So 212 is about what's expected, especially if he got full HP on first level and has Improved Toughness.
I know that monks have decent HP but come on, some high-level monsters don't have that much.
Titan: 370
Pit Fiend: 225
Balor: 290
Very old Bronze Dragon: 375.
...
I even went down to CR 18, and there is, in fact, a
Nightshade - Nightcrawler: 212HP.
So the opponent actually had low HP for the level.
So what should I do? should I quit the game, call my DM out, or just cheat myself because now I know that the rules don't apply.
Well, it sure looks like it was all by the book, to me...
That, to ME, is a huge problem.
Monks are good at one thing, and one thing only - eliminating spellcasters. Even without the wonkiness of ability scores and custom gear, this matchup is pretty dicey for the psion. Was he really trying to take you out for some reason?
At the end of my last campaign, the final BBEG was the Acererak simulacrum from one of the recent Dungeon magazines. The 16th-18th level party had a cohort that was a 15th level Githzerai monk with below average equipment for a PC of that level.
Acererak's final salvo was to cast Limited Wish to apply a -7 penalty to the monk's next saving throw, then hit the monk with a quickened dominate person. If that had worked, I honestly think I would have gotten a TPK.
No one in the party could hit the monk's AC without rolling a 17 or higher. The monk could make her save against anything the party threw by rolling a 3 or higher. The monk could hit anyone in the party by rolling a 5 or higher...and typically did around 150 hp of damage per round.
In the end, the monk still made her saving throw (by rolling a 12, IIRC) and then dropped Acererak from full HP to destroyed with one full attack action. But if she hadn't made that save, the party was in a heap of trouble.
The point of all this is even an underpowered high level 3e monk can have an impossible to hit AC, make all their saves by rolling a 2, have SR and other resistances, and can dish out damage like a rolling ball of butcher knives. Never mind the stunning fist save DC that your average spellcaster has to roll a 20 to beat.
I'm a little confused why the DM felt he had to cheat and I am really confused how you survived the encounter. A properly equipped 20th level monk (that wins initiative) should be able to dispatch a 20th level psion in one round, barring contingency effects and the like.
Acererak's final salvo was to cast Limited Wish to apply a -7 penalty to the monk's next saving throw, then hit the monk with a quickened dominate person. If that had worked, I honestly think I would have gotten a TPK.
As an aside, All Hail Protection From (X).
I'm a little confused why the DM felt he had to cheat and I am really confused how you survived the encounter. A properly equipped 20th level monk (that wins initiative) should be able to dispatch a 20th level psion in one round, barring contingency effects and the like.
Key there is "Wins initiative". Basically, practically any 20th level character should be able to take out any other 20th level character, if they win initiative and are in a close arena situation.
That being said, unpassable DR is monk's bane, as their damage output is usually built from an exceptional amount of relatively low-damage attacks, and unless the DM haxors in something like monk gloves a'la NWN, the monk won't be doing much punching damage, at least. Also, Monk AC isn't all that much ( comparable to an equal-level shield user ), but their touch AC is usually exceptional. On the other hand, Monk HP typically sucks, so they need that AC.
DMs control the horizontal and the vertical he can't cheat...
so call him on it all you want...his game his rules, his NPC
I created an NPC once with 100 in each attribute +45 to everything...however that monster also had an achiles heel. When the PCs found out it took not 1 roll to stop the NPC...was it fair...not really but it was fun.
getting taken down by a badass monster/NPC doesn't egual cheating
Fun for who, you or your players? The responcablity of the DM is to provide a fun and balanced game for thier players. Not to dictate life and death of the players characters on the whim of what the DM conciders "fun".
I ask all my PCs if they want me to go easy on them or go all out. Once they give me the okay to go all out on them I tell them straight up that EVERY encounter I am out to kill them and as GOD of my game I will take extreme pleasure in their deaths.
You're just mad because you got your butt whooped.
I ask all my PCs if they want me to go easy on them or go all out. Once they give me the okay to go all out on them I tell them straight up that EVERY encounter I am out to kill them and as GOD of my game I will take extreme pleasure in their deaths.
Ever hear of middle ground? Do you not know how to be challenging instead of "easy" or "all out"? If not, than you, sir, are a bad DM.
A DM should never pleasure in Char Deaths unless the point is to get rid of the char and the player, in which case there are easier ways to accomplish that goal.
You are, it seems from your post, the kind of DM that the OP was complaining about.
One needs to remember, it may be the DM's World, but it's the Player's Game.
You're just mad because you got your butt whooped.
I ask all my PCs if they want me to go easy on them or go all out. Once they give me the okay to go all out on them I tell them straight up that EVERY encounter I am out to kill them and as GOD of my game I will take extreme pleasure in their deaths.
Quite honestly, I'm glad to see you're on the far coast from me, as I'd hate to accidentally fall into one of your games. A DM who takes extreme pleasure in character deaths, and (even with the player's OK) goes "all out" to kill characters sounds like no fun at all to me. What's the point? Any DM can, at will, slaughter a party. There's no challenge to it, if you've got a brain in your head. The challenge lies in telling a good story, and making sure everyone at the table is having a good time.
You're just mad because you got your butt whooped.
I ask all my PCs if they want me to go easy on them or go all out. Once they give me the okay to go all out on them I tell them straight up that EVERY encounter I am out to kill them and as GOD of my game I will take extreme pleasure in their deaths.
There's a difference between developing challenging encounters and not pulling punches, and setting out to use the people in your game group as punching bags.
A DM should never pleasure in Char Deaths unless the point is to get rid of the char and the player, in which case there are easier ways to accomplish that goal.
Disagree.
Most of the time, I just feel bad when PCs die in the middle of an adventure. OTOH, especially the smug ones can be satisfying to beat down.
It is an immature player who cannot take their character dying. It is, at the very least, an inexperienced DM who sucks all the fun out of the game.
Hibiki, for this thread you'll need to read more than the first post. While the OP is completely by the book, really, it does appear like the DM is of the bad+killer kind.
During the course of the campaign, my DM has seen to it to create one-on-one battles for my party and I as we are getting close to the epic conclusion to his 3.5 edition campaign. During my fight, my 20th level psion was sent against a 20th level half-orc monk. During the battle, many of my powers were blocked by his character's various saves, most of them will-based until he finally defeated me with a series of grapples and pins that knocked my unconscious. At first, I thought that my loss was due to bad luck until my friend, another player in my group, told me about the monk. Apparently all the abilities scores were 20, giving the monk a +5 ability modifier to each ability. This was due to my DM created special items that gave his stats various bonuses.
Now as a DM of another campaign, I created several items myself to give to either my NPCs or PCs but I always balanced the items by giving it some withdraw along with the benefit. During the fight, I didn't see any withdraw, most of my attacks failed and he kept winning grapple checks. Even when I used the power Mindwipe and bestowed four negative levels on him and that was when I barely beat his save by one. What's worse was that along with his high ability scores was his HP, a whopping 212 total!!! I know that monks have decent HP but come on, some high-level monsters don't have that much. So what should I do? should I quit the game, call my DM out, or just cheat myself because now I know that the rules don't apply.
DM is not a cheat he just created something that could kill you and used Smart Tastics,
Did the whole party Die and lose or what? this isnt cheating cheating woulda been him takeing nat 20's 20 time in a row to kill off the whole party again and again.
Sure TPK Can happin and such but this should be rare.
Characters die all the time, but true Heroes are able to overcome difficult odds and prevail.
I have said characters deaths do not matter to the story, because once the characters are dead the story is over, world rewind. I would say I'm out to kill the party, especially since its a good motivating tool to get everyone amped for tonights encounters!
Here's another way to think about it as a player. If my DM took the time to create a monster just for me to have a climatic mano-a-mano battle for bragging rights, I'd be tickled pink. Because if I won, I'd get to brag on it for days. Especially in a group game, where my PC's combat became the center of the gaming groups attention. With my friends cheering me on from the sidelines.
The DM didn't autokill you, you got to play for several rounds and the dice went against you during the last game for these characters.
My friend found out because he's my roommate and my DM and I were playing in our room, he found out because during the fight, my DM would gloat about his NPC and show him the character sheet and that's how my friend found out about stats and HP. But, maybe your right, I'm just being a sore loser, but I still feel kinda cheated out. My DM had made numerous comments that in the last battle he wants to wipe out my entire party since in the end our involvement in his story had little impact and thus our deaths would mean nothing. Maybe he's just upping the difficulty to make the last fight more memorable and I'm just over-critical or he is fudging the rules just so he end up on top.
Maybe you should just find another DM, showing others the sheet of a character that's beating on one of your PCs and gloating about it is the Sign of a Player Killer, not a DM. Either he's a douche, you did something to **** him off royally, or there should be a really good point to you getting beat by this guy (i.e. in a future confrontation finding his "Achilles Heel" as mentioned above) whatever's the case ask him about it, if he starts getting testy and defensive, he's probably up to some douche baggery, and just find a new game.
I expect the actual math doesn't really matter, here. The main problem I'm seeing is that the DM went into at least one session with the goal of "kill the PCs." Sorry, that's just flat out wrong. Not, "let's challenge the players," not "wouldn't it be fun if we," not "I'll bet my players would enjoy." He went in there with the STATED intent of slaughtering PCs because they just plain don't matter to his story.
That, to ME, is a huge problem.
Just because this point has been made a number of times, I'd like to play devil's advocate if I may:
Have no other DMs here made a powerful NPC for the purpose of challenging a player, testing his limits, but told the players that it was meant to kill them?
I do this pretty much any time I make a real challenge for my PCs, because I need them to know that they need to take this fight seriously, as playing around will leave them with a severe case of deadness.
There is a big difference between seriously challenging PCs and out right killing them. Telling the PCs that they are going to die is stupid because you are basically telling them not to try because no matter what they are going to die.
That depends greatly on how you tell them they're going to die.
I ask all my PCs if they want me to go easy on them or go all out. Once they give me the okay to go all out on them I tell them straight up that EVERY encounter I am out to kill them and as GOD of my game I will take extreme pleasure in their deaths.
No, you're not out to kill them. If a DM really wants to kill the PC's then they die. End of story.
The DM controls everything in the world except the PC's. He can kill PC's as easily as breathing. He simply makes the next encounter be against a hopelessly more powerful opponent, or stacks all the cards against the PC's in other ways. The DM has no limitations upon the extremity of opposition he places before the PC's except those which he imposes upon himself. The fact that PC's survive at all proves that the DM is not REALLY trying to kill the PC's.
If the players weren't enjoying the game you'd be facing a mutiny - if you had players left at all. You're not as ruthless as you want to pretend you are if you care whether the players are enjoying the game (and if they actually are enjoying it).
No, you're not out to kill them. If a DM really wants to kill the PC's then they die. End of story.
Fine.
...
Kill the PCs while adhering to a set of specific constraints, such as using level-appropriate, manageable challenges and resources the PCs might themselves have access to.
Rocks do not fall, everyone doesn't die.
Fine.
...
Kill the PCs while adhering to a set of specific constraints, such as using level-appropriate, manageable challenges and resources the PCs might themselves have access to.
Rocks do not fall, everyone doesn't die.
Better. Really it is. I guess I'm making the point because not all players are intimately familiar with the inner workings of the game and the job of being behind the screen. They aren't always hip to a DM's self-deprecating jibes about being cruel and heartless. If the DM keeps SAYING that he just wants to kill the characters and then the PC's for whatever reasons do badly or do indeed die, then they have good reason to believe that the DM's assertions are true. I honestly think that DM's are doing themselves and their players a disservice with excessive use of those kind of statements.
90% or more of problems between DM's and players are communication problems - failure to communicate at all or misunderstandings from assumptions and miscommunication. I'm just suggesting to be sure you're sending the message you want the players to REALLY hear.
Any DM who purposely sets out to kill the party, regardless of reason, is a terrible DM.
Wow, I must be absolutely dreadful, then. The very first scenes of my latest campaign consisted of the cold-blooded murder of each party member, alone and surrounded. I didn't even let them roll dice to try to succeed; I described their opponents, asked them for a description of their tactics, and used that to narrate the fight that they lost. Three fourths of the players didn't bat an eyelash; they were intrigued and couldn't wait to see what this would lead to. They trusted their DM. The fourth went from horrified to intrigued when I said that no, he wouldn't have to roll up a new character to replace the one he'd just finished creating. :D
In a setting where death can be a temporary setback, player death is as much a story tool as a penalty for failure. Hell, in 4e, I'd say the scale can tip into 'mostly a story tool'. Using that tool deliberately instead of only when little plastic polyhedrons say we should is fully within the purview of DMs and their sexy, sexy fiat. While the DM described in the OP sounds like a major tool for simply gunning for his player out of pettiness, I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater by suggesting that any deliberate party mortality for any reason automatically equals a terrible DM.
The gloating and 'you are not worthy of my story' attitude sound like sufficient cause to-- (quit? walk away? quit, punch the DM, and walk away?) ...talk to him about it. (Le gasp! Communication instead of a knee-jerk reaction!) You don't have to sugar-coat it; ask him if he was trying to come across as a jerkass. If he can't present a reasonable explanation for his behaviour, or make you feel comfortable with the likelihood or unlikelihood of such behaviour happening in the future, then you should probably think about finding a new DM. Not as revenge for his being a jerkass, but as a solution to the problem of his being a jerkass.
Wow, I must be absolutely dreadful, then. The very first scenes of my latest campaign consisted of the cold-blooded murder of each party member, alone and surrounded. I didn't even let them roll dice to try to succeed; I described their opponents, asked them for a description of their tactics, and used that to narrate the fight that they lost. Three fourths of the players didn't bat an eyelash; they were intrigued and couldn't wait to see what this would lead to. They trusted their DM. The fourth went from horrified to intrigued when I said that no, he wouldn't have to roll up a new character to replace the one he'd just finished creating. :D
In a setting where death can be a temporary setback, player death is as much a story tool as a penalty for failure. Hell, in 4e, I'd say the scale can tip into 'mostly a story tool'. Using that tool deliberately instead of only when little plastic polyhedrons say we should is fully within the purview of DMs and their sexy, sexy fiat. While the DM described in the OP sounds like a major tool for simply gunning for his player out of pettiness, I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater by suggesting that any deliberate party mortality for any reason automatically equals a terrible DM.
You didn't really kill off the party then. I'm talking about 'make a new character or get raised, whatever you whiner.'
Any DM who purposely sets out to kill the party, regardless of reason, is a terrible DM.
I, too, am a terrible DM then. I once had a gaming group that I DM'd for, long story short they were all min/maxers who were so proud of their abilities that they flat out told me I couldn't kill their characters with level appropriate challenges even if I tried. They deliberately challenged me to go for a TPK, but according to the above quote that doesn't matter.
I, too, am a terrible DM then. I once had a gaming group that I DM'd for, long story short they were all min/maxers who were so proud of their abilities that they flat out told me I couldn't kill their characters with level appropriate challenges even if I tried. They deliberately challenged me to go for a TPK, but according to the above quote that doesn't matter.
Sort of, if you think min/maxing is a terrible sin for which players must be punished. How dare players be proud of their characters, right? How soon they forget there's no save versus "rocks fall, everyone dies".
I, too, am a terrible DM then. I once had a gaming group that I DM'd for, long story short they were all min/maxers who were so proud of their abilities that they flat out told me I couldn't kill their characters with level appropriate challenges even if I tried. They deliberately challenged me to go for a TPK, but according to the above quote that doesn't matter.
Foolish players. I've seen a level 25 Lich brought down by peasants supported by teen-level mages. I've also seen a TPK facing creatures seven levels lower than the party APL. Whatever the players do, DM can do better.
Fun for who, you or your players? The responcablity of the DM is to provide a fun and balanced game for thier players. Not to dictate life and death of the players characters on the whim of what the DM conciders "fun".
Both...I will admit I still hear curseing at the first time she showed up...but I also hear them tell the tale of 'Gutting the witch' with glee inthere eyes...and they loved it
Rule -1: The purpose of the DM of a particular game is to provide fun. If the game is not fun for good reason for any player involved, Rule 0 ceases to apply.
Rule -2: The point of this game is for everyone at the table, yes this includes the DM, to have fun. If something gets in the way of that fun, don't do it. If everyone there, DM and players, feel it is fun then go ahead.