http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/expert.htm I love that name btw.
Behold its power, never mind why I have that class, its a funny story that doesn't relate to this. I actually picked this class myself, and have had greats amounts of fun with the campaign because of it. My character has the crafts and knowledge skills no one else has because I wanted to support everyone even though I did am this class. It is very useful to have a merchant traveling with the party. It's very fun to act like a merchant, rather then a hero.
USE MAGICAL DEVICE
So what has made me "broken"? Dual wand wielding"got the feat" heroic surge, and that belt that gives you 3 movements a day "and the other stuff, that should be enough" . So 4 fire balls in one turn. To me, its a one trick pony.
"Wand of fireball, its like the D&D version of a rocket launcher"
So, I have the ability to destroy most monsters, and recently, I haven't rolled anything under a 15 for initiative. The DM finally has her fill, and has now made it next to impossible for the character who was building my wands to make them for me. "They didn't mind losing exp, since they where all but too happy with the artillery support."
I have decided that I will retrain that feat next level. So what should I do now? Greater Two weapon fighting? I am really limited here. What could I say to argue this?
Also, your character is probably going to become well know for this tactic, so eventually your smarter enemies will have plans to counter it. Every enemy probably won't, but the BBEG's and the sub-BBEG's probably won't be fazed.
As a DM, if I find the challenges I set up aren't challenging, I usually just adjust xp totals and try to find other ways to counter the party without just, for this example, only using fire-immune monsters.
I see this partly too as a player-DM trust issue. What were your motivations for setting this up, did you try to create something "broken" or, at the very least, difficult for your DM to counter? Did your DM give you access to the feats you needed without discussing with you what your plans were, a mistake on his side?
I guess it comes down to a fun factor issue, if you and the other players are having a great time then good for you, but if the DM isn't having fun then perhaps something needs to be altered. At the same time, if you change and your and the other player's fun is diminished, then that's not great either.
For me, I wouldn't really care that much, there are so many ways to counter one shot tactics that it isn't a big deal. Talk to your DM about it, you might even suggest that your DM hit the DM advice board.
I picked this class, because the DM was running with both old and new players, so I didn't want to over burden her with another class that had strange features she had to remember. I still want to have fun though. The idea for this class, was not to min max anything, but was more of a back up character, for example, when I actually did have healing wands and wands that buffed stats, I would use them, during battle.
I should probably point her to this site though.
First and foremost, experience awards for encounters are always, always, always split between ALL PCs present - regardless of whether everyone was able to act. If the entire party was there, then the entire party gets a fair share of the XP. I can't count the number of times a lucky initiative roll and judicious use of area-effect magic has allowed a wizard to put an end to an encounter before the rest of the party has had time to do much more than draw their weapons!
Second (and related), under no circumstances should a single encounter grant enough XP to advance even a single PC more than 1 level. Period. Tabletop gaming isn't a CRPG where massive XP awards can boost several levels at once.
Third, the DM - not the players - has say on how player actions impact the game world. If the DM allowed for the walls to be blown apart and the roof to come crashing down ... well, she has no one to blame but herself. Similarly, the DM - not the players - determines what magic items are available to the PCs. What the DM giveth, the DM can taketh away...
Fourth... why are you playing an Expert instead of a Rogue or Bard?! The lack of specific class features is a serious handicap. Lack of specific build information makes it impossible to make an objective call as to whether your character is overpowered or simply a powerful one-trick pony.
Finally - and this is the big one - your DM seems to be rather wet behind the ears. Cut her some slack, and definitely point her to this discussion for additional input. We have your side of things. I'm curious to know her take on these events.
Second (and related), under no circumstances should a single encounter grant enough XP to advance even a single PC more than 1 level. Period. Tabletop gaming isn't a CRPG where massive XP awards can boost several levels at once.
Actually, a PC cannot gain more than one level per session.
If XP gained would increase level by 2 or more,
XP gained = (XP required for curLvl+2)-1.
oooooo-kay. There are several things wrong with this situation.
First and foremost, experience awards for encounters are always, always, always split between ALL PCs present - regardless of whether everyone was able to act. If the entire party was there, then the entire party gets a fair share of the XP. I can't count the number of times a lucky initiative roll and judicious use of area-effect magic has allowed a wizard to put an end to an encounter before the rest of the party has had time to do much more than draw their weapons!
Second (and related), under no circumstances should a single encounter grant enough XP to advance even a single PC more than 1 level. Period. Tabletop gaming isn't a CRPG where massive XP awards can boost several levels at once.
Third, the DM - not the players - has say on how player actions impact the game world. If the DM allowed for the walls to be blown apart and the roof to come crashing down ... well, she has no one to blame but herself. Similarly, the DM - not the players - determines what magic items are available to the PCs. What the DM giveth, the DM can taketh away...
Fourth... why are you playing an Expert instead of a Rogue or Bard?! The lack of specific class features is a serious handicap. Lack of specific build information makes it impossible to make an objective call as to whether your character is overpowered or simply a powerful one-trick pony.
Finally - and this is the big one - your DM seems to be rather wet behind the ears. Cut her some slack, and definitely point her to this discussion for additional input. We have your side of things. I'm curious to know her take on these events.
1. Well, what has happened is, I fought them all alone. I got split up from the rest of the group, and since I do not have the mentality of a hero, but of a merchant, I set up camp, and waited to be rescued. "it was ether that, or keep running in one direction" Which ended in me, empty-church/large-house thing. Did you mean that the entire party would get the exp as long as they where in the session, or in the battle?
2. This probably happened, because most of the players only bothered playing this because most of them are addicts to World of Warcraft, and are even using certain classes from those books there...... In truth though, I suspect the DM is using many things from there as well. Needless to say, I personally think those versions of the classes are over powered in a regular D&D campaign, which only makes my case, stranger. "Rogues can get improved evasion at level 3, lovely".
3. Very true, but someone would have asked her why all those explosives didn't make a large hole. I can't really comment on that one too much though.
4. Two reasons, A. Roleplaying, it is very fun to have a character, who is literally, in no way, a hero, traveling with heroes. So far, its been very fun. Like that one character in the Hercules series back in the late 90s "I forget his name, bald, kind of fat, about mid-late 40s" . Mixed with a little of Bruce Campbell, king of thieves persona, "but is not a rogue by any means mind you, scoundrel yes, rogue no. although, if I was to remake him, he would be rogue, or a bard as you suggested.".
B. I was more or less, a "backup character" "6 players including myself". The DM would have to focus a lot on the new players, explain things to them several steps of the way, so I wanted to pick something that would seem helpful, but at the same time, the other members of the party would not rely on me for anything, since technically, I am an "average person". I originally was a commoner, but.... no, no house cat is going to kill me.......
I don't mind being under powered, but having an under powered class, and then being made even more so..... not something fun to experience. "Your nerfing an npc class? Well, technically it is not me, but it is for me."
5. Well, yes, this isn't the DM's first time campaigning, but you could probably count how many campaigns shes runs "complete or incomplete" with both hands, maybe even one hand.
Which why I my be incline to just accept the new "Nerf", and just be an extra sword in battle. I guess another sword isn't too bad.
How can you state that your character is underpowered, however, you soloed an entire encounter by yourself, doing enough damage to kick you two levels higher than the rest of your party?
I'd like to see your build before I comment any further. I'm all for role-playing something different, and the concept of a merchant along sounds fun, but if you chose it and cherry-picked feats to make yourself overpowered, then there may well be a problem.
doing enough damage to kick you two levels higher than the rest of your party
Damage done has nothing to do with XP gained. As for soloing an encounter, apparently no-one else was there. Other options were running or dying.
2. This probably happened, because most of the players only bothered playing this because most of them are addicts to World of Warcraft, and are even using certain classes from those books there...... In truth though, I suspect the DM is using many things from there as well. Needless to say, I personally think those versions of the classes are over powered in a regular D&D campaign, which only makes my case, stranger. "Rogues can get improved evasion at level 3, lovely".
I hear your pain. The group I play at went from DM + 4 to DM +2 due to WoW
On #3... objects have hardness and hit points. if those hit points are gone, the object becomes a dead parrot.
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-656887.html
You are overpowered with that one trick. Apart from that, probably not.
A commoner with enough magic items is also overpowered. How would you like to face 5 human commoners (spread out) with those two feats (the way you are using them) and two wands of fireball each? That should be an encounter low enough to not grant you any xp, but would almost certainly kill you.
It's a freakin' EXPERT. Sheesh.
What he said...
Read this thread on heroic surge. You can't use it to cast spells, and I'm pretty sure use spell trigger items either.
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-656887.html
You are overpowered with that one trick. Apart from that, probably not.
A commoner with enough magic items is also overpowered. How would you like to face 5 human commoners (spread out) with those two feats (the way you are using them) and two wands of fireball each? That should be an encounter low enough to not grant you any xp, but would almost certainly kill you.
hmm, I always thought a attack action was another word for standard action. Well, that changes things a bit. I would still think something like fire resistance "as said above" or a reflex save of 14 would be enough. 5d6 damage x4, could equal 120, but the liklely ness of making the save, and me not rolling max damage. Will probably run me 28-40 damage, "I doubt anyone would fail 4 reflex saves at that dc, even at lower levels", from two expensive one time use "50 charges, and the wand feat actually take 2 charges from one of them every use" item.
I still got that belt that give a full round/per day "or 3 moves ect", besides the belt and wands though, I don't really have anything, Wouldn't gear change the enounter rating, or commoners lack of UMD be odd in itself :p, but yes, I see your point.
Sheesh.
Edit: Sorry for the snark. You're like me in that you post and then edit as you go. I thought you had read and considered my post when you wrote that. Also you're right about commoners UMD...make them level 1 wizards. And yes it would change the ECL, but not the CR...so no more XP, just more treasure if you win.
Still, the following points do hold:
Just because it is an expert doesn't mean other things can't be overpowered, especially when you use them incorrectly, as you are doing.
A guy on a bicycle riding into a crowd isn't overpowered. The bombs he has strapped to it are.
The expert isn't overpowered. The two rules you are using in combination are-- that and you're using heroic surge incorrectly--in a way it cannot be used. You might as well use 3.0 boots of speed to get haste. It wouldn't take a feat, and you could do your trick 10 rounds per day. That's one reason they updated haste in 3.5...because it allowed casters to cast spells twice in a round...and that was too much.
As a dm, I would not allow a belt that allowed someone to do two rounds of actions in one round unless it was fantastically expensive. Consider this ability against the 9th level spell time stop. Generally viewed as one of the best spells in the game (and considered overpowered by some even at 9th level) it allows 1d4+1 rounds of action. These rounds also are in "frozen time" so you can only affect yourself, not your enemies.
I'd price a belt that allowed two rounds of actions in one round (three times per day) at least at the cost of casting time stop once per day. Then I'd double it as it allows you to affect enemies as well as yourself.
Edit: Actually, the more I think about it, I wouldn't allow it at all. I looked at Epic level items and none of them do anything like this. And think of that ability in the hands of an epic level character! For balance considerations, check out the epic feat, automatic quicken spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#automaticQuickenSpell
Wait, wouldn't those wizards have a large failure rate, granted, 50 fireballs flying everywhere would only add to the danger.
I looked it up. I had misread you. I thought it was three full rounds per day, not one full round if you used it up fully.
Maybe a bit cheap at 12,000, but not totally broken IMO. (course if you could buy more of them at high levels and just keep switching them after each encounter, that would be a problem in most campaigns). Not sure I'd allow this...and not just for your guy...Tome and battle guys getting off extra maneuvers would be just as bad as those extra spells. Think of the pricing this way: you're essentially able to use it as a third of a rod of greater metamagic (well not YOU, as you don't cast spells, but anyone who used in this way...a guy could cast a 9th level spell if he had one as a quickened action with this...and then still move).
A rod of greater metamagic-quicken costs 170,000 gp. One third of that is 56,666 gp. And all that cost would allow is a single spell of any level to be quickened once. It wouldn't also grant an extra move action. I think your belt was underpriced in the MIC (at least in my opinion). I'd probably either price it at 70,000 (to account for the initiative and the extra move) or not allow it. That or I'd leave it as priced but not allow spellcasting, as is suggested in the first quote below.
Here are some threads that agree with me:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44197
The belt of battle is such a misnomer. It should have allowed you to get a either a move, attack or full attack action. That would have been an interesting item fitting it's description. What we have ended up with is a hopelessly broken tool to make casters even more powerful.
http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/savageTide/cryForHelpTurinPHDungeonOrJoeJollyOrAnyoneReally&page=2&source=rss
The biggest culprit are swift/immediate action items - and the one that most readily springs to mind is the Belt of Battle. There are quite a few others as well. The entire book is not necessarily suspect - but their are enough items in the book that it sets teeth on edge to even see it coming out. I'll post more items that I found to be a problem at a later point, albiet soon.
also, for anyone who's letting the MIC in their game, 'ware the Belt of Battle and Ring of Spell Battle...swift action=full round action is ridiculous, not to mention the +2 init, all at like 12k gp...? jeez.
Nope, wands don't misfire (they're spell trigger). Scrolls do (they're spell completion).
Ah.
I looked it up. I had misread you. I thought it was three full rounds per day, not one full round if you used it up fully.
Maybe a bit cheap at 12,000, but not broken IMO. (course if you could buy more of them at high levels and just keep switching them after each encounter, that would be a problem in most campaigns). Not sure I'd allow this...and not just for your guy...Tome and battle guys getting off extra maneuvers would be just as bad as those extra spells.
Nope, wands don't misfire (they're spell trigger). Scrolls do (they're spell completion).
Really? Where there's another page for a former DM I knew. He made a wand explode on me...... Painful.
Wouldn't they still have to be at least level 5 to use it? For the fireball.
Personally, its one of my favorite items. A rogue/scout with heroic surge and that belt, and two weapon pounce was always fun.
Wouldn't they still have to be at least level 5 to use it? For the fireball.
Nope. (from hypertext SRD)
Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Belt of battle for casters...... Why didn't I think of that. I generally play a rogue type class, rarely do I play casters.....
Well, with all that, what do you think this "EXPERT" should do now?
It seems you've lost sight of the purpose of this class..to be a normal guy hanging out with heroes (and surviving).
I'd go in two directions with him (if it were me and that was my intention).
1. Make him survivable- see if your dm would help you buy items that keep you alive (up your saves, grant damage reduction, increase your hit points etc). Also feats that do this (improved toughness grants 1 hp per level). Then you can continue to adventure with these heroes at high levels and not die all the time.
2. Make him cool, but in an experty way, not a damage dealing way. What exactly is your role? You are a merchant? Develop contacts, buy items that help your allies, get things that help you escape, etc.
I'd look into the following specific items/abilities:
-Teamwork benefits (if you have ranks in a skill, you can train with allies to help them out) in PHBII and DMGII (i believe).
-Also skill tricks from Complete scoundrel (which allow you to do certain minor things each day for the cost of skill points).
Bracelet of friends (can call/teleport a friend holding a charm from this to you one time). Makes sense if you think of these guys as heroes that are almost like bodyguards. Can get you or them out of a jam.
An item that allows telepathy and or mind reading...both is better. Read the minds of people you deal with during negotiations (and it just happens to be useful in a dungeon).
There is a spell...rary's telepathic bond. Get rings made out of these (but have them be "wondrous items" that don't use up a ring slot or no one will want them). This can allow you to have mental two way communication with party members....very useful for a number of things.
Scrying items (clairvoyance, crystal balls, prying eyes, ring xray vision) you have to keep an eye on your competition after all.
For magic items, check out www.crystalkeep.com/d20
They have a list of a ton of the open content of the magic items (which is all you really need). You can find bracelet of friends there, as well as lots of other "utility" items.
One thing above should be your guiding light in my opinion: look for items and skills that a merchant would have (and they just happen to be useful in a dungeon). Wands of fireball? Why? Helm of mind reading...sure! And while you walk around you detect enemies coming at your party, and you can tell them to protect you!
I had a guy named Ulee "fix it". He never did damage, but he was the most important guy in our party, because he always had some minor magic item or trick up his sleeve (and later, heward's haversack). Not a pure healer, but a battlefield controler. Wands of stone shape got a lot of use, as did wands of rope trick. I think a guy like that would be fitting with your merchant concept (makes me want to go play Ulee again).
Just start thinking about what an epic merchant might be like if you were DMing and wanted to make a great NPC. What would he have? Would he fireball all the time? Would he know everything about anything related to his products? He'd certainly have magic items--what kinds? How about things that help him move his goods? Magic carpet, aparatus of Kwalish, quall's feather token-boat. A wand with the spell "item". Bags of holding aplenty. Bodyguards (i.e. horn of valhalla, iron flask with a genie in it, bag of tricks at lower levels). Items to hide his alignment, allow him to speak to anyone (tongues spell), to disguise himself, etc (so he can talk to the orc chieftan and obtain rights to the diamond mine in their territory). He might even have some items that allow him to destroy enemies' products (to improve the market for him). Wood warp, rusting grasp, etc could all work here.
"Gosh it's going to be hard to sell all those wavy arrows to the fighter's guild. Lucky thing I came along or they might have run out, and in the middle of a war, too. They'll really need these now. Yep, good thing I happened along."
Real power comes in being able to deal with any challenge, no matter how great. Doing damage is only one way to meet a challenge.
I think you should become a really great expert!
1. Make him survivable- see if your dm would help you buy items that keep you alive (up your saves, grant damage reduction, increase your hit points etc). Also feats that do this (improved toughness grants 1 hp per level). Then you can continue to adventure with these heroes at high levels and not die all the time.
2. Make him cool, but in an experty way, not a damage dealing way. What exactly is your role? You are a merchant? Develop contacts, buy items that help your allies, get things that help you escape, etc.
I actually have been doing that a little bit of that. The wand thing however, was just my trump card.
Everything else you said actually works quite well. Mind reading, teleporting merchant. Think I'll try some of that. :D
Abe.
Also, wealth DEFINITELY affects CR. Still, a bunch of, say, level 4-5 commoners with wands would still be a nasty encounter. Potentially.
Heroic Surge not applying to DWW is a good call.
Metamagic Hand Grips, OTOH...
Is buying and training dogs overpowered?
I don't think 1st level commoners can manage the UMD ranks. Best I can see them getting at is +10, which still is a 50% fail chance on wand activation. If they use their feats to boost their UMD, in which case they ain't dual wand wielding.
You're right, which is why I switched them to lvl 1 wizards.
Also, wealth DEFINITELY affects CR. Still, a bunch of, say, level 4-5 commoners with wands would still be a nasty encounter. Potentially.
No. It affects encounter level (ECL), not challenge rating (as I stated above). A lot of people don't understand the difference. CR is how much XP you get. ECL is about how hard the encounter is. If you have an encounter on a shaky wooden bridge over a chasm filled with lava, the ECL goes up. It's harder. You don't get more xp (though as a DM I'd rule that you deserve more and I'd ad hoc a bonus...) per the rules. An easier example to understand (more intuitive) is that you don't get more xp per guy if you fight two tough guys.
Say I fight one guy with cr5. Two of them are ECL 6. I get xp for two cr 5 guys. I don't get xp for two cr6 guys or one cr6 guy. An even better example is a ton of kobolds. Fighting 30 of them at level 5 is a much higher challenge than just cr 1/2. I don't have the table on me, but let's say ECL6. You still get xp for them on the xp chart as 30 times whatever a 1/2 cr critter gives you.
Heroic Surge not applying to DWW is a good call.
Metamagic Hand Grips, OTOH...Is buying and training dogs overpowered?
For the dogs, yes and no. Just about anything can be abused. If you, say trained those dogs to deliver big barrels of gunpowder and then fireballed them...yes. If you used them in the ways that people normally use dogs..no.
The rules are not perfect. They are written with basic expectations. Combinations can always be found to break things, in those instances. It is up to the players and dm to decide what power level they want in their campaign and try to stick to it.