There are a couple of issues. Firstly, from an RP-perspective, the group looks like something a three year old left on your lawn after too much cake at a party. Yeah, that bad! We know what the issues here are, and have identified how to fix them. Then there are issues with the wildly different approaches to the game, but we have again identified this and are taking steps to address it. Combat, however, seems a bigger issue. I doubt the players want to scrap their character concepts, but the current party does not work well together. Tactics are poor, the different builds to not compliment, and there are too many different agendas (largely tied to the RP and personality issue I mentioned before). Ideally, there could be some tweaks we could make to improve this, but I suspect it needs to be something bigger. I think we would all be interested in what more experienced players have to say.
The party is currently level four and about half-way along to level five. We started a city-based adventure about half-way between levels three and four, which was around August; prior to this, the party was on a wilderness campaign (and the DM says we will return to the wilderness after this adventure). There is no defined style to the campaign (eg hack and slash, etc); it just sort of flows from week to week, with any session potentially going any which way.
Firstly, here are the characters in the party. The backgrounds were chosen based on back-story rather than mechanics. I have also not noted consumables (eg Potions of Healing) as I have no idea what people have.
Human Cleric (Kord)
Impiltur Benefit
19 / 12 / 10 / 8 / 17 / 12
Skills: Diplomacy, Heal, History, Insight, Religion
Feats: Ritual Caster, Durable, Human Perseverance, Action Surge, Battle Healer
At Will: Lance of Faith, Righteous Brand, Priest's Shield
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Encounter: Healing Strike, Daunting Light
Daily: Beacon of Hope
Utility: Cure Light Wounds
Items: Symbol of Battle +1, Vengeful Greatclub +1, Chainmail of Sacrifice +1
Rituals: Gentle Repose, Create Holy Water
The Cleric was originally combat-centric, but has been gradually enjoying the role-play side more. Very reserved in Skill Challenges. In combat, he is very aggressive and quick to get into the thick of things, but keeps an eye on party health. He prefers to use Priest's Shield.
Human Ranger
Hunter Fighting Style, Prime Shot
Durpar Benefit
15 / 12 / 18 / 11 / 14 / 10
Skills: Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, Nature, Perception, Stealth
Feats: Human Perseverance, Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow), Weapon Focus (Light Blades), Weapon Expertise (Light Blades)
At Will: Shield of Blades, Twin Strike, Fading Strike
Encounter: Two-Fanged Strike, Disruptive Strike
Daily: Scything Blow
Utility: Yield Ground
Items: Flaming Greatbow +1, Cloaked Dagger +2, Lifedrinker Longsword +1, Bloodcut Leather Armour +1 (The reason he has Leather instead of Hide and a Longsword instead of a Light Blade is that these previously belonged to the now-dead PC, so he is using them until he picks up something better)
The Ranger is more role-play than roll-play oriented, to the point of self-imposed mechanical restrictions. He does not mind Skill Challenges, but tends to be more active in combat. He starts combats by sitting back with his bow, but once the numbers have thinned he will stalk forward to engage with his swords. He uses Twin Strike almost exclusively (shocked?).
Halfling Rogue
Artful Dodger, Rogue Weapon Talent
Chessenta Benefit
13 / 13 / 19 / 10 / 10 / 17
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Perception, Stealth, Thievery
Feats: Lost in the Crowd, Backstabber, Weapon Proficiency (Parrying Dagger)
At Will: Sly Flourish, Deft Strike
Encounter: Opening Move, Jumping Blade Assault
Daily: Handspring Assault
Utility: Agile Footwork
Items: Acidic Dagger +1, Shadowdance Leather Armour +1 [no Parrying Dagger at all]
The Rogue is entirely role-play-centric. He enjoys Skill Challenges, but is not overly interested in combats. He favours Bluff and Stealth. In combat, he generally sticks close to the Cleric, but typically contributes very little.
I do not have the character sheet for this one (he chooses to keep it secret from the other players), so this is guesswork based on observation:
Eladrin Wizard
Wand of Accuracy
[unknown background]
10 / 10 / 14+? / 21 / 10? / 13?
Skills: Arcana, History, Insight, Perception, Religion
Feats: Ritual Caster, Eladrin Sword Wizardry [two more unknown]
At Will: Storm Pillar, Scorching Burst
Encounter: Force Orb, Fire Shroud
Daily: Flaming Sphere/Acid Arrow
Utility: Shield/Feather Fall
Items: Runic Longsword +1, Magic Wand +1, Robes of Scintillation +2
Rituals: [unknown, never used]
The Wizard is almost entirely combat-centric. He does not hate skill challenges, but comes alive in combat. He favours Scorching Burst as much as the Ranger does Twin Strike, but is known to blow up party members to increase DPR. Once combat starts, he picks a place to fire from and rarely moves.
There is a fifth player who will be joining the group sometime in the future. This player will bring in an Elven Swarm Druid, but I am not sure where he and the DM are at with finalising his character, nor when he will start playing.
To understand how the group plays together, I will summarise the current game-day so far. This day is a little unusual, as the Cleric player was absent, so his character was uninvolved outside combat, where it was used conservatively (we cannot risk an absent player's character).
The previous evening ended with the DMPC (Drow Assassin) leading the party into the Underdark. He took them to a spellplague-effected cavern where they took an extended rest. When they woke, they found they had been abandoned by the Drow and were now faced by a Spellscarred Mind Flayer and two Duergar Thralls. The chamber was about 12x12 squares, with a 4x4 bit in the middle that was impassible and blocked line of sight/effect. The first Duergar was quickly dispatched to focused fire, but the Mind Flayer then Dazed the party. The Ranger, Wizard and Cleric did not need to move from their current locations, so did not care, but this kept the Rogue away from Combat Advantage the rest of the encounter. The Ranger and Rogue both used their magic item for the day. Short rest.
After the combat, the Drow returned and lead the party along another passage. At the sound of footsteps, the Rogue dived for cover; the rest of the party soon followed suit. The approaching party of Duergar spotted the Cleric and thought he was alone. When they approached, the party threw on a light and ambushed them. This was a 20x4 passage with no significant terrain features, beyond a choke-point in the middle. There were eight opponents (some minions, a lurker, a brute?, unsure about the others). Surprise round: the Dueargar were out of range for everyone other than the Ranger, who was the only one to act. As the Duergar approached, they fired upon the party (some area burst effect), causing significant damage and leaving the Ranger dieing. The Cleric used his Action Point, some encounter powers and his magic item for the day in this encounter. The Wizard pummeled the enemies caught in a choke point by the DMPC with encounter powers and Scorching Burst, but the Rogue only got a single attack in (he remained hidden until they were past the choke and in range of his dagger) before the party defeated them. Short rest.
Following this, the Drow continued to lead the party along, but the Rogue identified the party was about to be lead into another dangerous location. When the party proved more trusting of the Drow, he convinced them that an ancient god was sealed in that passage, forcing the Drow to lead them along a different path. They exited safely, back in the city they started in; the DMPC left the party. While the Rogue took advantage of a tavern, the rest of the party examined some documents they acquired earlier. Finding a suspicious address, they headed off.
(this was where the DM let the party retrain their characters)
When they found the building, the Rogue examined the entrances and found them all guarded. He lead the party to the roof and found a way in. The next room was again guarded, so he tried to Bluff his way through. Combat, 4x5 room; a table taking up half the room. A single opponent (Soldier?). The Wizard and Rogue both blew an encounter power before the party realised he was a standard enemy, not an Elite or Solo. No short rest.
The Rogue scouted the rest of the building and found a set of stairs down. While leading the party to them, the party was attacked. 4x5 room again (two tables filled most of it), two Artillery Minions, a Solider, a Controller and a Dwarven Hammerer (finally, an enemy I can positively identify!). The Rogue pushed into the room to hold one side while the Wizard dropped Blazing Sphere into the other side. The Ranger and Cleric stayed at the door next to the Wizard using ranged attacks on the guys in the area of the Sphere. The Rogue ran back to the stationary party, and held the doorway. The party was Immobilised by the Controller, but did not care. The Rogue took a beating and received healing from the Cleric. The Rogue used his action point and encounter powers; the Cleric an encounter power. No short rest.
The party wanted to head down, but the Rogue was insistent on leaving a guard at the top of the stairs, so they could not get trapped. This caused a lot of tag-teaming as the party would swap between who had the skills necessary to advance (everyone had to contribute at some time). Eventually, they found a suspicious doorway, and were insistent the Rogue come down with everyone else. The Rogue found a chamber with an Orcus cult, and some pendulum-devices. He snuck in and tried to slip onto a pendulum and climb it, but failed his Acrobatics check. He was noticed. The room was 6x8 with no movement/LOS blocking terrain, other than the pendulums. There was one pendulum parallel with each wall (1 square from the wall) and they swung from one side to the other every two turns. The end of each pendulum filled a 1x1 square in each corner of the room.
The Rogue spotted the switch to stop the pendulums and pressed it, to allow the party in. He was attacked by a Minion (Zombie), a Brute (Dragonborn) and an Artillery, while the Ranger took on two Minions (Zombie) and an Artillery. The party was attacked from behind and trapped by a Lurker, who tied up the Cleric all combat, essentially separating him from the rest (the two kept whiffing their attacks all encounter). The Rogue turned the pendulums back on and jumped onto one before it started moving again, which caused the death of all the Minions and the Brute, but he took further fire from the Brute and Artillery before they moved. The Artillery now split fire between the Wizard and Ranger. The Rogue turned the pendulums off again, allowing the Ranger to engage one, while the Wizard used his remaining Encounter power and Storm Pillar to take care of the other. Once they died, the Lurker automatically died. The Rogue used his Daily, the Ranger his Action Point. All remaining encounter powers and Second Winds were used this time. Session ended, so we do not know if we can take a Short Rest yet.
I will link all the players and the DM to this thread so we can all read any advice. We are currently only 2-3 hours into this day, and barely avoided TPK in the last encounter. This is not a new issue either; the party has never worked well together. We stink, and need to do something about it. What can we do to make this party work?
the party can take a short rest whenever the heck they want. EXTENDED rests are restricted....if the party has 5 minutes of free time, they can take a short rest....if the DM decides to interrupt the short rest, well, then you deal with it, but i'd say the DM is in the wrong here saying "you can't short rest right now." (yes i know the DM will be reading this, oh well....short rests are designed to let you replenish your encounter powers and hit points WHENEVER you have even a few moments - extended rests are the ones that replenish EVERYTHING, and a DM is fully within his rights to restrict those).
DMPCs are also a problem. DMPCs have to either play with a HUGE case of the stupids (they don't know anything, the party makes the choices and the DMPC just blindly follows along), or they end up running the show and being the sole plot-mover in the group. Also, with that party, any DMPC should have been a defender.
finally, there is an easy solution to the "we can't work together" problem.
step 1: talk OUT OF GAME to lay out your out-of-game problems, ie. we aren't making this group work well, we lack a defender, we don't trust each other.
step 2: talk in-game (the DM needn't even be there for this) about these issues. You don't have to give up any character stats or numbers or anything, but each player should state what he/she wants to get from adventuring, how they plan on working with the party, whether they will continue to tolerate friendly fire (maybe the party is fine with it, but the wizard has to check with them via a code-phrase in combat first), when the party needs to eat OAs and rush to the aid of an ally (like in the fight with the cleric vs. lurker) and lastly, whether the party wants to consider "hiring" a defender (DMG2 companion character is preferable over a DMPC).
It sounds like the party is unwilling to TRY to work together (rogue does stuff alone, wizard shoots party members and is secretive, cleric stubbornly hacks away at something instead of moving over to aid the party).....these are just outside observations, but....
TLDR; if the party won't work together, sit down out of game, and then in game and TALK ABOUT IT until its worked out. also, short rests are not DM controlled, players can take them, DMs can interrupt them.
I say used to because he can't do it any more, not since he had a mark of justice placed on him for the murder of several paladins who were aiding the party.
Careless placement of spells is as dangerous for the player as it is for the rest of the party, the reason being that it's a bad habit to get into and you're leaving yourself wide open for the GM to bring down the hammer of retribution the moment you make the mistake of fireballing the wrong person. Actions in a game of D&D will always have consequences, you may not have experienced them yet but they're there.
As for being secretive, there's nothing wrong with that per say, until you start holding back important information. If, for example, you know that a wraith will respawn unless killed with radiant damage and choose not to tell the party, you're the one to blame when half the party dies fleeing from the invincible undead. If you have a feat that grants combat advantage against any opponent you've hit with a cold ability, the onus is on you to tell the party so that they'll know about it when the time comes for you to make use of it.
The different agendas come down to the RP issue I mentioned earlier. This is not a true party. The Cleric and Ranger (Party A) are hired by a village to help with a Goblin issue, and came to the city as a part of that quest. The Wizard (Party B) is on an unrelated quest for a Moonblade, and was already in the city for that reason. The two groups become privvy to an assassination plot and need to expose it before they are killed for their knowledge, forcing them to work together. The two groups do not know each other, and do not care about each other beyond this quest. Along the way, they needed to break into some houses, so gain the temporary assistance of the Rogue (Party C). He does not even know the names of the other party members, and barely knows anything about their quest; he just needs to crack a couple of houses and he is off again. The Rogue cares nothing for Party A or B, and vice versa. The DMPC (Party D) was already known to Party A and was used as a source of information. He decided to come along for the fun, but does not care about Party A, B or C, and vice versa; again, Party B and C do not know anything about the DMPC, and vice versa. Sounds like a Soap Opera, right?
The different agendas come down to the RP issue I mentioned earlier. This is not a true party. The Cleric and Ranger (Party A) are hired by a village to help with a Goblin issue, and came to the city as a part of that quest. The Wizard (Party B) is on an unrelated quest for a Moonblade, and was already in the city for that reason. The two groups become privvy to an assassination plot and need to expose it before they are killed for their knowledge, forcing them to work together. The two groups do not know each other, and do not care about each other beyond this quest. Along the way, they needed to break into some houses, so gain the temporary assistance of the Rogue (Party C). He does not even know the names of the other party members, and barely knows anything about their quest; he just needs to crack a couple of houses and he is off again. The Rogue cares nothing for Party A or B, and vice versa. The DMPC (Party D) was already known to Party A and was used as a source of information. He decided to come along for the fun, but does not care about Party A, B or C, and vice versa; again, Party B and C do not know anything about the DMPC, and vice versa. Sounds like a Soap Opera, right?
This is the kind of stuff that led me to start every campaign with the players explaining to me why their characters are working together as a cohesive and cooperative team.
My suggestion is to sit down out of character and discuss how you all can get on track to be a team rather than a collection of individuals that happen to be travelling in the same direction.
This is the kind of stuff that led me to start every campaign with the players explaining to me why their characters are working together as a cohesive and cooperative team.
My suggestion is to sit down out of character and discuss how you all can get on track to be a team rather than a collection of individuals that happen to be travelling in the same direction.
I agree, it's just a bad idea in general to assemble a group of adventurers who are all "loners" ostensibly, with varying goals, no interest in each other aside from immediate concerns, and then expect them to function together and do quests as a team.
I don't see a real issue with combats from what you've said, it sounds pretty fun there. So I suspect that none of your characters "like" each other, and feel forced by the DM to be a party in the first place just to play D&D.
The biggest "problem" would be that the Rogue doesn't even want to be an adventurer, let alone travel with you guys and help in a productive fashion. He's a fun guy it seems, but he's not in any way interested in being a party member. I would have vetoed that kind of character from the start if I were the DM really.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Wizard has other ulterior motives which may even conflict directly (at times) with some of your other characters. He also doesn't seem to want to be in a group.
Introducing a new element potentially could help. Something like you're gathered by some power that says "You are the ancient heroes reborn to do yadda yadda," or find out you're all siblings (difficult at best with that group).
Working to introduce an element into some of the characters' stories that would make them want to cooperate for instance. Maybe the Rogue is on the run from a thieves' guild, and they'll only forgive him if he can come back with a certain artifact that is coincidentally closely tied to what the other party members are doing.
For the Wizard, I think he would just have to have a reversal of behavior and come clean with whatever he wants to do. "OK, I didn't tell you this before, but I think I can trust you guys..." You can't trust a PC that doesn't have any desire to reveal anything except a willingness to injure you. Heck he's probably a Changeling or something and that's why he won't show his sheet.
Obviously, you are the players of those characters, and can do things like change their entire personalities and history. Though players rarely are interested in doing that, and I wouldn't really be either once the character has made several appearances.
I think the campaign is more or less "over," for at least the majority of that group. It's possible to have continuity, but you're going to have to jettison several PCs who don't even want to be adventurers in the first place and find reasons for the new PCs to work together toward a similar goal.
It's true many adventuring parties are made up of greatly differing characters, but there is still the one aspect in common: They *want* to be in a group, to accomplish things. Even if it's just getting more treasure, the group helps. If they don't want to be in a group, they shouldn't be in a group.
As a side note, which may or may not be related, is that the player of the Wizard might be causing actual player tensions at the table in some respects, as opposed to just character related issues.
My own experience with players who do not share any game information despite everyone else doing so freely, has been the equivalent of, "Hi, I'm a sulky rogue/ranger/spellcaster kind of character who will be traveling with you whether you like it or not. I could tell you my name, but it isn't necessarily my "real" name. What I will tell you, up front (and very frequently) is that I do not trust you in any way shape or form. You can *see* some of my gear, but it is utterly nondescript and you can tell nothing at all about it. Any questions you ask me will be answered with a coy grin and the phrase, 'Wouldn't you like to know.' Please don't mind the full-body black veil which obscures me entirely, from which I periodically draw weapons or shoot death. No, you can never, ever look under my veil -- or something terrible, horrible will happen."
And then expect to be treated like a normal party member.
Hopefully this isn't the case with your group.
- Engage the characters in the situation at hand. You need some sort of cohesive hook/motivation that brings all their interests together so that the party will work together for a common goal.
- Engage the players in skill challenges. When designing them, think of what skills the party is good at. Make sure you provide oppurtunities over the course of a few skill challenges for everyone to do intersting things - HOWEVER, do not try to pack it all into one. That would be bad.
One example would be if the cleric had to keep someone talking/busy/etc, IE, diplomacy, while the rogue and ranger sneak around him to do... Something.
- It is important to try to make sure everyone can get what they want out of the game. Don't assume they'll all want exactly the same sort of gameplay. Clearly, they don't.
- More terrain features. That table should have had chairs, stuff on it... (Pie in the face!) Just stuff that would realistically be in the environment. People don't live in empty spaces, and any terrain feature can alter combat and/or be a good chance for a player to do something creative. But I gotta say, those pendulums were a nice set piece, really, well done.
And, the wizard:
- YOU ARE NOT A STRIKER. STOP PLAYING LIKE A STRIKER. ESPECIALLY STOP PLAYING LIKE A STRIKER WHO HAS NO CLUE WHAT HE'S DOING.
- Meaning: You are a controller in a party with no defender. Which makes your job, that is, impeding the enemy and thus reducing their ability to harm the party, absolutely vital.
- Don't include allies in your AOE attacks. If you can't use it without including them, don't use it. There is a Paragon feat (I think), War Wizardry, that allows you to reduce the chances of hitting allies with AoE attacks. Until you can significantly reduce those chances, you must not include the party in your AoE attacks - you have other, better options.
- Use Storm Pillar to control how your enemies move. Find creative ways to use Mage Hand, or Prestidigitation, or Ghost Sound - for example, you could use this to get the Rogue, who IS a Striker, CA to use Sneak Attack. If you must, you can think of damage granted in such a manner or damage that only occurs because of your abilities as YOUR damage, seeing as you made it possible.
- Why are you hiding your sheet? There's no good reason to hide your sheet. The other players aren't your competition, they are your allies - the game is about party effectiveness, not single character effectiveness. Stop hiding your sheet so that people better know how to work with your character. And you need to start working with theirs.
- SLOW DOWN. Charging on when the party needs to take a short rest - 5 minutes to catch their breath, basically - is a good way to get someone killed. And if you get any character, not just yours, killed in this manner it is a big time screwup.
- Give the roleplaying a shot, it's one of the most fun parts of the game.
- Stop trying to max your DPR. That's what strikers do. Do your remember whether or not you're a striker? That's right, you're not.
On a side note, Druid is a poor choice for the new character - controller is one of the last roles to double stack, and you don't have a defender. You need one.
You have: 2 Strikers, a Controller who is trying and failing as a striker (based on what's been said), and a Leader. You should be trying to cover off that empty role.
EDIT: If you are permitted to retrain powers, the wizard should consider switching out powers for Chilling Cloud and/or Illusory Ambush, which are more advantagous than his current choices in that they have good control effects - which is a good method of selecting controller powers, I'd say a better one by far than DPR, because than you are selecting powers based on what fills your role in combat... If that wizard were to then start controlling properly, dual stacked controllers could be highly effective.
