Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lokai Apr 06, 2008 19:24:39	not sure is right board but throw it out here anyway. Currently playing a kobold Mystic Theurge and i had this general question. When dealing with PrC's does +1 of existing spellcasting class apply to MT? i ask because i read description of this a few times and way i intepret it as yes, but my DM's reply was that, PrC does not cout as a spellcasting class. Yet more i read more i have even seen examples on offical wizard site of them doing this. "If you multiclass archivist and wizard you don't need to worry about Wisdom. That, plus a lore master, would just make an interesting class combination." now if i am understanding this right, archivist+wizard+MT as that was what were discussing and then he talks about adding the lore master so... somthing like this Archivist 3/wizard 3/MT 4/lore master 10 apparently that works or wouldn't have posted it on offical website yea? so what boils down to was that, i am doing a rather diffcult build of shugenja 4/sorcerer 4 before i pick up my levels in MT and i already qualify for dragonheart mage class so i wanted to do, shugenja 4/sorcerer 4/MT2/DHM 10 so that i would have some random firepower when needed since mostly support at the moment. So question i have is what is most DM's opinion on allowing MT count as a spellcasting class and is any offical ruling i can use to help persuade my DM that it does count because to me.... if MT isn't a casting class wtf is it because all it gives you.
#2 shaggy_shaggs Apr 06, 2008 19:39:26	MT doesn't have a spell progression of its own, all it can do is advance other classes' spell progressions. You can't take another spell advancing class after MT to essentially get both previous classes' spell progressions to rise via +1 level of existing class boosts. If you wanted to eventually reach top tier spells in an arcane class and a divine class (and be drastically behind for most of your pre-epic career, as usually happens with such characters), you could've gone druid 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 4/arcane heirophant 10 (or wizard 3/druid 3/mystic theurge 10/arcane heirophant 4, but that way would suck more).
#3 lokai Apr 06, 2008 20:24:00	i disagree been reading between MT and other classes a bit and here is conclusion i have come to, and why i disagree with you. When look at MT class is no " class abilities " listed with in the class is ONLY spell progression. I believe firmly that instead of designing a HUUUUGE chart per class of progression of MT because lets face it that would be impossible. If actually read spells per day actually says " this class advances your divine and arcane casting by 1 level " this says to me... that MT indeed has a spell progression of its own, it stacks its levels on top of previous levels. Untill i see an offcial wizard document claiming that can't stack prc's on top of prc's i can't honestly agree with your train of thought. Way your talking is that because is no " spells per day " listed that can't advance, but to me is how i see it. MT adds +1 arcane and divine, because not like a familiar or monk AC, not listed under class abilities LISTED under spell progression! so if has no spell progression why is there a " spells per day " section in MT? again sorry but i disagree with you on this and anyone else claims ths simply because if MT is not a spell caster then what is it? and if it is a spell caster then i believe does qualify for +1 of existing spells per day, now if some one can through rules given prove me wrong be my guest. In addition is whole " archivist/wizard/MT/lore master" build was on offical site if can't progress MT spells per day why would they list this as a viable MT build? makes little since. No i firmly believe MT levels can progress via other PrC's and i aim to prove that.
#4 shaggy_shaggs Apr 06, 2008 20:29:11	You disagree because you want to believe you're right and for no other reason. Where's the Mystic Theurge spell list? Oh right, there isn't one because there are no Mystic Theurge spells. It's only a hybrid advancement class, not a spellcasting class in and of itself. As for the build you say you saw, it proves nothing. Go look through the sourcebooks at the pregen NPCs. Many of them have feats or other abilities that they don't qualify for. Is that to be taken as the go-ahead to assume it's legal to ignore prerequisites whenever you feel like it?
#5 lokai Apr 06, 2008 20:44:51	WoW... so i disagree because i believe i am right? well duh... and you disagree because you believe you are right? but doesn't get us anywhere if you list personal feelings. Now try listing some actual rules, and examples of why ITS NOT right, and as to your reply sure show you its spell list sorc/wizard and Cleric(or druid) depending on 2 classes you choose, now counts toward those classes so its spell list=there spell list. As i stated above, just because its a hybrid caster class DOESN'T make it not a caster in fact... in own words " hybrid caster class " makes it a caster class by those words. Otherwise be a melee class right? look at it from every point of veiw before you just say no. At moment i am looking at it from each angle and... honestly can't see how people can say its NOT a casting class so... like i said prove me wrong.
#6 salla Apr 06, 2008 20:59:11	The MT does not have its own casting progression, therefore it cannot be advanced by another class. For a counterpoint, look at the Sublime Chord in Complete Arcane; it doesn't say '+1 level', it has a specific spell progression, listed in the spell-level-by-class-level chart. It *can* be advanced by another PrC.
#7 daidojitaidoru Apr 06, 2008 21:07:20	Mystic Theurge can't benifit from spellcasting advancement because it has no spellcasting ability. Just like you can't advance a Human Paragon's nonexistant spellcasting with a prestige class. Yes the class is that mediocre. Unless you're messing with Ur-Priest or something.
#8 count_arioch_the_28th Apr 06, 2008 21:36:32	Anything that advances a spellcasting class's casting level is not a spellcasting class. It is only a spellcasting class if it has a unique spell list and spells per day progression. Mystic Theurge has neither, it is not a spellcasting class, it's an enhancing class. (Note that you show your ignorance by assuming anything not spellcasting is melee. That is not the case, there are a great many varieties of PrCs out there, and some of them do some pretty odd things.) Simply put, you can only add +1 spellcaster level to a spellcasting class, that's just logic. +1 spellcasting level is not a spellcasting class.
#9 Dark_Stryke Apr 06, 2008 21:44:49	I'm not sure I understand what is going on here. Is the OP asking if he can do something like this: Take cleric 3/Wizard3, then take some number of levels of Mystic Theurge (let's say 4), making his caster level with both classes 7. Does he then want to take something like loremaster (for example), and add it's +1 level of existing class bonus to mystic theurge, thereby granting him +1 spellcasting level in both cleric and wizard? If that's what he's trying to do, then the answer is: No, munchkincheese, the MT doesn't have its own spellcasting progression and thus can't be "advanced" the way the OP thinks it can. However, if the OP is trying to do the same thing, except taking loremaster (or what have you) to increase just his wizard level, then I'd say it worked fine. MT is adding a number to existing spellcasting classes, so is whatever other prestige he's taking. Why wouldn't they stack? It's not like they're bonuses with a type. Or is something completely different going on here? In which case I'll just be over there, in the corner...
#10 Tovec Apr 06, 2008 21:45:18	I'm not sure I understand the original question. I'm less sure I understand it after reading many of the replies. Maybe you are asking if you take Wiz3, Clr3, MT2 and then another class that advances spell progression if you can select MT, to get +1 to wiz and clr as well as the class abilities of the final pr.class? I'd say no. Or are you asking if with MT you meet the prereqs of anther class in spellcasting levels, say something requires 5th level divine spells and you take 3 clr and 3 wiz and whatever number of MT you need for 5th level spells do you qualify? I'd say yes.
#11 deathmond Apr 06, 2008 21:57:25	He wants to make his casting look like this: Divine(4)---Mystic theurge1(5)--MT(6)--Other PrC(7) Arcane(4)--Mystic theurge1(5)--MT(6)--Other PrC(7) In short, yes, he wants a PrC taken after MT to advance both arcane and divine.
#12 shadowhowler Apr 07, 2008 0:04:14	He wants to make his casting look like this: Divine(4)---Mystic theurge1(5)--MT(6)--Other PrC(7) Arcane(4)--Mystic theurge1(5)--MT(6)--Other PrC(7) In short, yes, he wants a PrC taken after MT to advance both arcane and divine. Which Arcane Hieropoint would do... don't know of any others tho...
#13 lokai Apr 07, 2008 0:23:45	eh actually i just disagree with common conception that MT has no spell progression. I've argued about this for past i dunno 4-5 hours with a few friends. We came to conclusion that we just see it differantly. I see MT as an extension of previous classes but still a spellcaster in its own right. oh and can't really munchkin a mystic theurge they suck to bad to even atempt it, munchkining one just make it i dunno viable? anyway not gonna continue this argument tonight but i feel that +1 of existing spellcaster/class if have MT should be able to choose MT and advance sheerly based on how gimped the class is and how it has NOTHING else of value. also not all of us WANT to be a druid or cleric or wizard and still do MT. In end, i stand by my own conclusion that MT can be extended by other PrC's despite how many people find it " cheesy " or " Munchkin like " sheerly because class is that bad. Trying to boost class so it was a bit better while struggling with reduced casting. In addition... reading both classes and aspects of +1 existing class i do NOT see anything would prevent it in the wording. +1 of existing spellcasting class: gain caster level and spells known as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class you had leveled in previously. is exact or nearly exact wording. so if we assume that this wording works! anytime gain +1 of existing spellcasting or class then would effectivly gain 1 MT progression because its a spell casting class and it was one you took previously. is my reasoning and yes i know noone agrees with me but i stick by way i feel about it but anyway done argueing.
#14 shaggy_shaggs Apr 07, 2008 0:35:10	You know, I don't want to have no Con score when I'm an undead character. I like having a high Fort save mod and bonus hp/HD. I should be able to get all the undead goodies and still have all the benefits of having a Con score. Lack of a Con score is just so gimped, I'm just trying to power up something that's so bad. From now on all my undead characters that would gain benefits from having a Con score will have one, even though no one agrees with me and the rules don't either. That's my reasoning and I'm sticking to it.
#15 kelvinaw273 Apr 07, 2008 2:13:52	It's a question of balance ... MT has no other class features EXCEPT advancement in both a divine and an arcane spellcasting class because this alone is an awesome advantage. To try to transfer this advantage to another PrC with it's own advancement powers and abilities AS WELL is unbalancing. Consider it another way: if you have levels in both wizard and sorcerer and you take a PrC that advances arcane casting, you don't get both - you get one or the other, period. The spell-casting class is NOT the PrC, it's the base class. Very few PrCs have their own spellcasting advancement, and so all but these are not, in their own rights, spellcasting classes. The golden rule here is, if a combo seems too good to be true, it probably is. Even if it is 'legal' (and this idea isn't), a sensible DM may well disallow it.
#16 robbypants Apr 07, 2008 9:48:06	eh actually i just disagree with common conception that MT has no spell progression. I've argued about this for past i dunno 4-5 hours with a few friends. We came to conclusion that we just see it differantly. I see MT as an extension of previous classes but still a spellcaster in its own right. oh and can't really munchkin a mystic theurge they suck to bad to even atempt it, munchkining one just make it i dunno viable? anyway not gonna continue this argument tonight but i feel that If not a single person agrees with you, don't you think that should tell you something? *cough* Occam's razor! *cough* is my reasoning and yes i know noone agrees with me but i stick by way i feel about it but anyway done argueing. Which begs the question: why did you start this thread in the first place if you already had your mind made up? Are you simply looking for validation?
#17 setekh_dup Apr 07, 2008 10:09:59	Sorry, what is the argument here? The description in my DM's guide clearly says that you gain extra spells per day, new spells known and increase in caster level in both divine and arcane classes (Or rather, the two you had upon starting the prestige class) Am I just really missing what everyone is arguing so vehemently about?
#18 rebel7284 Apr 07, 2008 10:24:10	Lokai, while your argument about why other classes COULD advance Mystic Theurge itself are valid. The rules say you can't. Period. If you want Mystic Theurge to be good, play wizard 6, ur priest 2, mystic theurge 8, random prestige class 4 that advances wizard. 9th level wizard spells(18th level Wizard), 9th level cleric spells(10th level Ur Priest). Hell you get 9th level cleric casting earlier than clerics! [edit]You may need a PrC to bump the Fort save slightly to enter ur priest or just delay entry until wizard 8[/edit]
#19 crimsondeath Apr 07, 2008 11:57:24	Lokai, while your argument about why other classes COULD advance Mystic Theurge itself are valid. The rules say you can't. Period. If you want Mystic Theurge to be good, play wizard 6, ur priest 2, mystic theurge 8, random prestige class 4 that advances wizard. 9th level wizard spells(18th level Wizard), 9th level cleric spells(10th level Ur Priest). Hell you get 9th level cleric casting earlier than clerics! [edit]You may need a PrC to bump the Fort save slightly to enter ur priest or just delay entry until wizard 8[/edit] Mindbender works, although qualifying for both it and Ur-Priest will eat up pretty much all of a level 5 Human Wizard's skill points.
#20 StevenO Apr 07, 2008 17:24:08	Lokai, while your argument about why other classes COULD advance Mystic Theurge itself are valid. The rules say you can't. Period. If you want Mystic Theurge to be good, play wizard 6, ur priest 2, mystic theurge 8, random prestige class 4 that advances wizard. 9th level wizard spells(18th level Wizard), 9th level cleric spells(10th level Ur Priest). Hell you get 9th level cleric casting earlier than clerics! [edit]You may need a PrC to bump the Fort save slightly to enter ur priest or just delay entry until wizard 8[/edit] Mindbender works, although qualifying for both it and Ur-Priest will eat up pretty much all of a level 5 Human Wizard's skill points. The FORT +3 requirement of Ur-Priest does keep straight wizards and sorcerers out until after 9th level. This makes the basic double 9th level spell build Wizard10/UP2/MT8 although it may be possible to trade 4 of those wizard levels for another PrC that you can qualify for in the first six levels. Although it is not something I'd think of for some reason Mindbender DOES have a good FORT save and advances spellcasting enabling Ur-Priest earlier but it does eat up a LOT of resources. Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, and a few other PrCs with advanced spell progressions are some of the few ways to actually "break" the MT. It also combines well with Druid/Wizard/Arcane Heirophant (with a little MT before AH) to produce a 17/17 casting split which may be too good if starting a character at high level with but if played to from first level that isn't really too bad. The Mystic Theurge does not have its own spellcasting. What it does have is a special ability the grants other classes "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" which is simplified into the spells section of the class table. Other classes that grant "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" still require that be directed at an actual spell progression. If you want another reason you can't advance a MT's "dual spellcasting" with other PrCs consider this recursion. Take a Cleric3/Wizard3/MT2 then add a level of Loremaster and direct that advancement at MT; now if the MT is a legal target then the Loremaster must be a legal target for casting advancement as well so send one of the MT's boost back at the Loremaster and the other at whatever class; oh look, the Loremaster now gets another casting boost so lets advance MT again; pretty soon you'd find you've maxed out your MT "spellcasting" although you still haven't advanced a single level during this recursion. The casting level breakdown: Starting Clr3/Wiz3/MT2 = Div 5, Arc 5 Add Loremaster 1: Now effective MT 3 but use +1 Arc and +1 Lore Add effective Lore 2 to make effective MT 4 with new advances +1 Div +1 Lore Lore 3 into MT 5 into +1 Arc +1 Lore Lore 4 into MT 6 into +1 Div +1 Lore .... Lore 8 into MT 10 into +1 Div +1 Lore Effective Lore 9 going into +1 Arcane So right now we'd be at Clr3/Wiz3/MT2/Lore1 casting at Divine 9, Arcane 10 which is pretty good for only a 9th level character. I guess that instead of Clr I could have used Druid and then take Arcane Heirophant next level (subject to prereqs) followed by another level in Loremaster or other class an probably get 20th level casting of at least one type by 12th level.