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Necromancy and Constructs

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
white_daemon
Sep 21, 2008 18:39:16 I'm considering making a character that is a Dread Necromancer, and one of the problems I ran into is when our party faces Constructs, which it most likely will, eventually. Anyway, I looked up the Construct template, and it says that they are immune to ability damage, negative energy affects, level drain, death effects, etc; in general all the things that make necromancy such a delightful and charming school. I'm wondering if there are any necro spells out there that I've overlooked and that I could use against constructs. Any help is appreciated, but please keep it official WoTC material; don't bother mentioning anything not in a WoTC book because the DM has already decreed against such rules.
#2
m-bark
Sep 22, 2008 10:26:16 Well, some necromancy spells still work, such as Bestow Curse and Blindness/Deafness, but since SR applies, it's useless against Golems.
#3
white_daemon
Sep 22, 2008 14:24:11 Right, most magic is useless against Golems (that's the price spellcasters have to pay of course); looking back at Bestow Curse, it should be effective against constructs. Thanks for the help.
Now that Spell Resistance has been mentioned, can anyone find any necro spells that affect constructs and, if possible, don't allow Spell Resistance?
#4
chava
Sep 22, 2008 15:01:14 It's not that they have a high SR - most golems are immune to any magic that allows for SR.
#5
ekko
Sep 22, 2008 16:36:39 Also, wrong forum. These are the 4e forums, 3.5 belongs in Previous Editions.
#6
doomsought
Sep 22, 2008 19:40:53 Don't flame the edition wars, he is perfectly alright posting here.

Now to you, dread necromancer, the entire point of your class is not direct attacks with those spells constructs are immune to, it is the minions you raise.
Watch the clockwork monsters be burried by your own army of the undead.

Skeletons, zombies, ghouls, wraiths, ghosts, mummies and even vampires, these are your weapons, not the petty spells of the mere evoker!
#7
m-bark
Sep 24, 2008 5:36:08 Yes. The Dread Necro is better at the "raise legions of undead guys" type of Necromancy, whereas a Wizard is better at the "Disintegrate his ass, drain his life, poison him 'till he dies" kind of necromancer.

Also, wrong forum. These are the 4e forums, 3.5 belongs in Previous Editions.

THIS. IS. EDITION. NEUTRAL! *Spartan kick*
#8
Polis
Sep 24, 2008 14:59:29 Well look for spells that do not allow for spell resistance. The huge spell book that was released one or two years ago that had all the spells from the splat books in it would be a good place to start.

Look at summon undead I-V, might give you some toys to play with. If you have any conjuration spells that might help, many conjuration spells don't allow for SR and immunity to magic won't help against conjured "things".

Another idea is to prep spells that assist your allies in combat rather than actually attack.
#9
lunargamer
Sep 24, 2008 16:03:04 I believe this is a necromancy spell, but forgive me if it's not. I found it in the spell compendium. It's called backbiter. At level 1, I killed ogres with it (with 3 uses). The spell targets a weapon. I don't remember if the wielder's spell resistance applies, but if the weapon is not magical (which could be questionable in the hands of a magically-created golem) there is no save. The next time the creature makes a melee attack with the weapon, it bends back and cracks him, automatically hitting and doing normal damage. If the golem uses its fists as weapons, you're sadly out of luck, but if it holds a club or a sword, you're golden.

That said, if I could raise an actual army of undead, I'd be doing that instead of playing around with mindless things that can't appreciate the finesse I use to dismantle them. If you can call necromancy "charming" you might like to be able to ask your DM, "Why are you hitting yourself?"

sorry, I couldn't resist saying that line
#10
japan_the_cougar
Sep 25, 2008 20:56:13 Yeah, your best bet is to just make hordes of undead. There's a spell from the elemental issue of Dragon that gave undead fire damage and self-destruct powers. I believe there is a similar spell in BoVD or somewhere else that lets destroyed undead explode in an acid burst. Also look into the Corpsecrafter feat tree in LM; there's plenty of fun stuff there to make undead minions more lethal.

Yeah, and backbiter is necro, lvl 1.
#11
ssvegeta555
Sep 27, 2008 4:28:52
THIS. IS. EDITION. NEUTRAL! *Spartan kick*

#12
d1tremere
Sep 27, 2008 10:44:27
Yes. The Dread Necro is better at the "raise legions of undead guys" type of Necromancy, whereas a Wizard is better at the "Disintegrate his ass, drain his life, poison him 'till he dies" kind of necromancer.

THIS. IS. EDITION. NEUTRAL! *Spartan kick*

How exactly is this edition neutral, he is asking about a class which only exists in 3E and about it's main weakness which is a big difference in 3E all while on the 4E board.

As many have said your best bet is to send hoards of minions against these threats, much as the Rogue is boned against undead in 3E so to is the Necro boned against constructs.
#13
1_ton_ghost
Sep 27, 2008 11:58:25 Rogues are not "boned" in 3.x vs. undead: Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape). I swear by it routinely.
Necros also aren't useless vs. constructs. Buffing or assists to your party, changing the terrain, just providing a flank, you're doing something. Jsut because you can't engage it manually w/ touch/spell attacks, doesn't mean you're not helping. You'll still net group XP for your part. There is always a way.

"There are no small parts, only small actors."

The problems aren't the class necessarilly in 'x' vs. 'z'-esque conflict resolution. More often than not, it is the player, or lack of innovation, creativity, or initiative vs. said antagonist. ex)When a tank can routinely chop the problem to bits, that's stagnant sometimes. When he realizes it was more effective to trip and then grapple and enemy so that his rogue friend can sneak attack too, that's more progressive.
#14
m-bark
Sep 28, 2008 13:27:58
How exactly is this edition neutral, he is asking about a class which only exists in 3E and about it's main weakness which is a big difference in 3E all while on the 4E board.

As many have said your best bet is to send hoards of minions against these threats, much as the Rogue is boned against undead in 3E so to is the Necro boned against constructs.

Ekko was talking about the forum. I was talking about the forum. The forum is not just this thread, and whilst this thread is about something in 3.5, the forum is edition True Neutral.
#15
white_daemon
Sep 28, 2008 15:37:31
Ekko was talking about the forum. I was talking about the forum. The forum is not just this thread, and whilst this thread is about something in 3.5, the forum is edition True Neutral.

QFT. The forum's not called "What's a 4e Player to Do?" for a reason.

Anyway, I think I'll just use my animated critters against any Constructs too large for me to utilize Bite of the King against, or ones that have immunity to magic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 white_daemon Sep 21, 2008 18:39:16	I'm considering making a character that is a Dread Necromancer, and one of the problems I ran into is when our party faces Constructs, which it most likely will, eventually. Anyway, I looked up the Construct template, and it says that they are immune to ability damage, negative energy affects, level drain, death effects, etc; in general all the things that make necromancy such a delightful and charming school. I'm wondering if there are any necro spells out there that I've overlooked and that I could use against constructs. Any help is appreciated, but please keep it official WoTC material; don't bother mentioning anything not in a WoTC book because the DM has already decreed against such rules.
#2 m-bark Sep 22, 2008 10:26:16	Well, some necromancy spells still work, such as Bestow Curse and Blindness/Deafness, but since SR applies, it's useless against Golems.
#3 white_daemon Sep 22, 2008 14:24:11	Right, most magic is useless against Golems (that's the price spellcasters have to pay of course); looking back at Bestow Curse, it should be effective against constructs. Thanks for the help. Now that Spell Resistance has been mentioned, can anyone find any necro spells that affect constructs and, if possible, don't allow Spell Resistance?
#4 chava Sep 22, 2008 15:01:14	It's not that they have a high SR - most golems are immune to any magic that allows for SR.
#5 ekko Sep 22, 2008 16:36:39	Also, wrong forum. These are the 4e forums, 3.5 belongs in Previous Editions.
#6 doomsought Sep 22, 2008 19:40:53	Don't flame the edition wars, he is perfectly alright posting here. Now to you, dread necromancer, the entire point of your class is not direct attacks with those spells constructs are immune to, it is the minions you raise. Watch the clockwork monsters be burried by your own army of the undead. Skeletons, zombies, ghouls, wraiths, ghosts, mummies and even vampires, these are your weapons, not the petty spells of the mere evoker!
#7 m-bark Sep 24, 2008 5:36:08	Yes. The Dread Necro is better at the "raise legions of undead guys" type of Necromancy, whereas a Wizard is better at the "Disintegrate his ass, drain his life, poison him 'till he dies" kind of necromancer. Also, wrong forum. These are the 4e forums, 3.5 belongs in Previous Editions. THIS. IS. EDITION. NEUTRAL! Spartan kick
#8 Polis Sep 24, 2008 14:59:29	Well look for spells that do not allow for spell resistance. The huge spell book that was released one or two years ago that had all the spells from the splat books in it would be a good place to start. Look at summon undead I-V, might give you some toys to play with. If you have any conjuration spells that might help, many conjuration spells don't allow for SR and immunity to magic won't help against conjured "things". Another idea is to prep spells that assist your allies in combat rather than actually attack.
#9 lunargamer Sep 24, 2008 16:03:04	I believe this is a necromancy spell, but forgive me if it's not. I found it in the spell compendium. It's called backbiter. At level 1, I killed ogres with it (with 3 uses). The spell targets a weapon. I don't remember if the wielder's spell resistance applies, but if the weapon is not magical (which could be questionable in the hands of a magically-created golem) there is no save. The next time the creature makes a melee attack with the weapon, it bends back and cracks him, automatically hitting and doing normal damage. If the golem uses its fists as weapons, you're sadly out of luck, but if it holds a club or a sword, you're golden. That said, if I could raise an actual army of undead, I'd be doing that instead of playing around with mindless things that can't appreciate the finesse I use to dismantle them. If you can call necromancy "charming" you might like to be able to ask your DM, "Why are you hitting yourself?" sorry, I couldn't resist saying that line
#10 japan_the_cougar Sep 25, 2008 20:56:13	Yeah, your best bet is to just make hordes of undead. There's a spell from the elemental issue of Dragon that gave undead fire damage and self-destruct powers. I believe there is a similar spell in BoVD or somewhere else that lets destroyed undead explode in an acid burst. Also look into the Corpsecrafter feat tree in LM; there's plenty of fun stuff there to make undead minions more lethal. Yeah, and backbiter is necro, lvl 1.
#11 ssvegeta555 Sep 27, 2008 4:28:52	THIS. IS. EDITION. NEUTRAL! Spartan kick
#12 d1tremere Sep 27, 2008 10:44:27	Yes. The Dread Necro is better at the "raise legions of undead guys" type of Necromancy, whereas a Wizard is better at the "Disintegrate his ass, drain his life, poison him 'till he dies" kind of necromancer. THIS. IS. EDITION. NEUTRAL! Spartan kick How exactly is this edition neutral, he is asking about a class which only exists in 3E and about it's main weakness which is a big difference in 3E all while on the 4E board. As many have said your best bet is to send hoards of minions against these threats, much as the Rogue is boned against undead in 3E so to is the Necro boned against constructs.
#13 1_ton_ghost Sep 27, 2008 11:58:25	Rogues are not "boned" in 3.x vs. undead: Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape). I swear by it routinely. Necros also aren't useless vs. constructs. Buffing or assists to your party, changing the terrain, just providing a flank, you're doing something. Jsut because you can't engage it manually w/ touch/spell attacks, doesn't mean you're not helping. You'll still net group XP for your part. There is always a way. "There are no small parts, only small actors." The problems aren't the class necessarilly in 'x' vs. 'z'-esque conflict resolution. More often than not, it is the player, or lack of innovation, creativity, or initiative vs. said antagonist. ex)When a tank can routinely chop the problem to bits, that's stagnant sometimes. When he realizes it was more effective to trip and then grapple and enemy so that his rogue friend can sneak attack too, that's more progressive.
#14 m-bark Sep 28, 2008 13:27:58	How exactly is this edition neutral, he is asking about a class which only exists in 3E and about it's main weakness which is a big difference in 3E all while on the 4E board. As many have said your best bet is to send hoards of minions against these threats, much as the Rogue is boned against undead in 3E so to is the Necro boned against constructs. Ekko was talking about the forum. I was talking about the forum. The forum is not just this thread, and whilst this thread is about something in 3.5, the forum is edition True Neutral.
#15 white_daemon Sep 28, 2008 15:37:31	Ekko was talking about the forum. I was talking about the forum. The forum is not just this thread, and whilst this thread is about something in 3.5, the forum is edition True Neutral. QFT. The forum's not called "What's a 4e Player to Do?" for a reason. Anyway, I think I'll just use my animated critters against any Constructs too large for me to utilize Bite of the King against, or ones that have immunity to magic.