I asked the DM about it, and I told him I wanted to swap it out for something. Like Sneak Attack (I've seen around the web where other DM's have done that because of the Ranger spells), or a bonus feat. He said that if I could find something that was considered "official", he'd consider it. Just like my Endurance. He finds it useless, so he let me take the Wild Defender substitute "Trackless Step" in exchange.
Does anyone have anything like that?
Another question I have: What is your goal in playing a Ranger? It seems like you are looking to shed class features right and left and I can't help but wonder if your concept might fit another class better.
As for ideas, you might check the online 3.5 SRD. The Variant Rules section has several class power swap examples and you might find some inspiration from there.
I never did like Favored Enemy in 3.5. I'm glad 4e did away with it.
I don't know where you see me wanting to shed class features left and right because that's not what I'm trying to do here. I don't know about you, but Endurance is useless. No one in the party ever plays a Paladin because who wants to have Remove Disease 1/week. A non-spellcasting Ranger can do that as many times a week at 13th as a Paladin at 24th. We switched that out with the Champions variant to cast Haste on themself 1/day.
As for what the DM figures I should take, there's nothing. He gave me a list of five that rangers should probably take (dragons, aberrations, undead, animals, and chaotic outsiders), and needless to say we've fought two types so far in 20 sessions. The area? The entire world. There is no "area" per se, it's just whatever we go up against at random (or whatever the Dungeon magazine campaign of the week says). This is why I want to swap it out. If I could get a bonus feat that'd add to my damage all the time, or sneak attack so I could make use of a few spells that add that to my damage, then I wouldn't have any problems. Even the DM has said, quote "Favored enemy is one of those abilities that’s only useful depending on the adventure, EVEN IF you can retrain it."
The linked site you gave, I have. It only gives options for the Ranger to be Urban and get Favored Organization or Environment, or swap out combat style for druid wild shape abilities (which the DM has deemed illegal because wild shape is considered "broken" in his eyes) and fast movement.
Perhaps you could copy 4e and replace it with a form of Quarry?
I never did like Favored Enemy in 3.5. I'm glad 4e did away with it.
I don't know Quarry. I'll have to look into that one.
and your DM is right, Wild Shape is utterly broken.
You could see if your DM will let you swap your Ranger levels for Scout.
and your DM is right, Wild Shape is utterly broken.
Not a bad idea.
I was just wondering if you were going for an archer type, mostly because I've seen several other classes that make better archers than the ranger, fighter included. (Ranger mostly looked like, to me anyway, a Fighter with their feats pre-selected (poorly) and some spells (unimpressive spells)).
I'm the Mystic Ranger variant, as opposed to the regular Ranger, which is better because you get more spells (including 0 and 5th), and a few more skills to choose from. The downside is you lose your animal companion (oh boo hoo), and you only get four Favored Enemies. Other stuff is pretty much the same, but you get them at later levels.
I don't know Quarry. I'll have to look into that one.
It's basically an extra d6 damage to a target you pick, applied only once per round even if you hit multiple times. That target has to be the nearest to you when you quarry it, though if it moves away it is still your quarry. You can reapply the quarry to another nearest target as a minor action and the previous quarry is no longer under the effect.
Your DM might consider that a little too strong compared to Favored Enemy, but you should be able to make some kind of compromise.
As a side note, fighters actually make better archers than rangers due to the feats if they're well built. Rangers get an edge due to divine magic, utility, and their pet, and not so much archery. They're OK archers.
The problem with the Fighter is it's too weak. It's got a low reflex and will, and only has 2+Int for skills, not to mention it has very few to choose from. Now, the variant I took, Targetteer, makes up for it somewhat, but not by a whole lot. The Arrow Swarm ability is cool. Requires Rapid Shot, and what it does is takes away the -2 penalty, and you can make two additional shots than your base attack. So at level 6, you'd have four attacks. I never use the Ranger's pet. I always substitute that off. Just as I never use a familiar when I'm a spell caster. Too many times I've had DM's go "You're there and he knows you're strong, and your familiar's over there. What's your familiar's AC again?" The spells the ranger has mostly seem to stack with sneak attack, and the two bladed weapons, but when you've got a cheap DM that won't give you money, and you need to continually upgrade TWO weapons, you might as well walk away right then and there as you'll never pull anything off.
The DM and I just came up with something that we're both fine with. It's a variant of the Quarry ability merged with Favored Enemy. Essentially every encounter I can change my FE, but it takes a round to do it. He's also come up with a feat that I could take that would allow me to make it a move action, instead of a standard one. It was something his Ranger had in a Pathfinder campaign a long time ago.
Well, as long as you're both happy.....
Personally I don't think your actually playing a character so much as just a pile of #s. All you're looking for is the highest + you can find.
See, favoured enemy is much more of an RP thing with a usefull, if conditional, rule attached to it than a true class feature. It does NOT mean that the campaign must focuss on them. Or that they even need to be present many a time.
For ex, I have a friend whos ranger hates polar bears (yes, polar bears. Specifficly). And he intentionally (now) lives/adventures well away from their habitat. But by the gods, should he ever return to his homeland & encounter one of the damned things.....
Likewise I think it's highly inappropriate to keep re-training your favoured enemy. Pick something. Stick with it. Use it to help define your character. And maybe, under certain circumstances, re-training would make sense. But not how you're going about it.
Like I said, all you want is the biggest consistant bonus.
Therefore you should choose something stupid like Favoured Enemy: Living Beings. Odds are good you'll keep encountering them....
If adventures consist exclusively of one type of monster, and it is always a type you don't have of a favored enemy, maybe the DM could have just worked on adventure design.
If you have a compromise though I guess that's OK. Scouts from Complete Adventurer may be more what you want from an archer though.
Personally I don't see how you could go wrong with Humanoid: Human (or whatever is the dominant race), Undead, Evil Outsiders, and Aberrations, Monstrous Humanoids or Giants as last choice.
If adventures consist exclusively of one type of monster, and it is always a type you don't have of a favored enemy, maybe the DM could have just worked on adventure design.
If you have a compromise though I guess that's OK. Scouts from Complete Adventurer may be more what you want from an archer though.
Judging from the OP, the DM is intentionally hosing him by selecting monsters that the player does not get bonuses against, neutering what is supposed to be a primary character ability. Very bad form.
Well, as long as you're both happy.....
Personally I don't think your actually playing a character so much as just a pile of #s. All you're looking for is the highest + you can find.
See, favoured enemy is much more of an RP thing with a usefull, if conditional, rule attached to it than a true class feature. It does NOT mean that the campaign must focuss on them. Or that they even need to be present many a time.
For ex, I have a friend whos ranger hates polar bears (yes, polar bears. Specifficly). And he intentionally (now) lives/adventures well away from their habitat. But by the gods, should he ever return to his homeland & encounter one of the damned things.....
Likewise I think it's highly inappropriate to keep re-training your favoured enemy. Pick something. Stick with it. Use it to help define your character. And maybe, under certain circumstances, re-training would make sense. But not how you're going about it.
Like I said, all you want is the biggest consistant bonus.
Therefore you should choose something stupid like Favoured Enemy: Living Beings. Odds are good you'll keep encountering them....
Well thanks ever so much for that sarcasm, but you should keep it. :P Until you know what the situation is, don't judge. As for being happy, I'm only happy when I'm useful. What good is having a character that does only 1d8 when you're going up against stuff that has DR 10+? You might as well bend over now, and say thank you. The other players have characters that average 1d8 (or 1d10)+5 per strike, and have 2-5 strikes each. Think of it as a video game styled RPG. Do you use the characters that do the most damage, or do you use the ones that are more story oriented? I don't know about you, but I always used the warriors in my RP plus one healer so I didn't die. Few people admit that they had Gau, Strago, and Moogle leveled up to 99 in FF6, and used him against Kefka's final form. Most people, like myself, had Sabin, Cyan, and Terra.
As for FE: Living Beings, the DM would never allow that. And even if he did, we'd be facing off against constructs and undead in the following sessions. So, it'd be moot.
Am I just looking for numbers for damage right now? You bet. Just like everyone else in the party. Why? Because we don't role play. We kill as quickly as possible, and then run. He sends stuff after us, and we try to survive. I currently do the least amount of damage out of everyone, depending on the situation. There is no storyline. At least none that we've found out so far. We just keep trying to get away with our lives. Our DM would have a field day with you if you were looking for a storyline based RP. That lvl 20 Ranger who's only good against polar bears would die in six seconds because he'd be facing off against everything but. I'll do an example. The Ranger walks into a bar, and just because my necromancer doesn't like his face, I'll have my Iron Golem, a few human rogue minions, a drow assassin that's on my payroll, and all the undead I can create in a day's time, all go after him. That's what we deal with. Now, you might say to this (as most others do) "Well if that's what you deal with, I'd leave." Well, some did that. There's only three players left from the original group, and I just recently joined at the end of last campaign.
Put it this way, if I'd known this was going to happen when I first joined the group, I guarantee you that I wouldn't have taken Ranger.
Some people RP for storyline, and never get passed their second or third level. I remember those days, somewhat. They were way back when. Now though, we pretty much level up within a few sessions, and have stronger stuff sent against us. You know, like a VG RP where you walk around, and level up, and THEN take on the boss.
Personally I don't see how you could go wrong with Humanoid: Human (or whatever is the dominant race), Undead, Evil Outsiders, and Aberrations, Monstrous Humanoids or Giants as last choice.
If adventures consist exclusively of one type of monster, and it is always a type you don't have of a favored enemy, maybe the DM could have just worked on adventure design.
If you have a compromise though I guess that's OK. Scouts from Complete Adventurer may be more what you want from an archer though.
If the adventures consisted exclusively of one type of monster, I'd have chosen that monster. The problem is we never have one type of monster or being to face off against. I was even considering taking a few Favored's that you see in other books like Evil (only gain +1) or Face of the Unknown (gain standard +2, but only if you've never fought that type before). However, the DM said I had to meet the prereqs of the Prestiges to do it, and take it as a bonus feat. Well, I might as well take the actual classes, but what good is a bonus against the unknown opponent if you won't get it a second time? The Evil one, I'm still considering, but I won't be able to meet the prereqs for another four levels or so, and by that time I'd like to think I'd get better bonsues from others feats.
Next time I'll consider a Scout. The problem is the 10 foot move to get the +1d6 bonus. Once you move more than your 5 ft shift, you lose any ability to do a full attack. I might as well skip it, and do my three attacks at lvl 20 instead.
Judging from the OP, the DM is intentionally hosing him by selecting monsters that the player does not get bonuses against, neutering what is supposed to be a primary character ability. Very bad form.
Pretty much, yeah. It's how he is. That, and we don't usually get a decent amount of treasure either. At CR 8, we barely meet what the standard treasure for this level gets, but only because we were given bags of holding by our characters's parents at lvl 1.
You get used to it. You just need to figure out how you can become someone that can deal damage, and survive.
You get used to it. You just need to figure out how you can become someone that can deal damage, and survive.
Or find a game run by a decent DM.
Or find a game run by a decent DM.
ROFL!!!
Not in this city, friend. Even the gaming convention has scary DM's. Now admittedly, the downside to gaming conventions is you don't bring your own characters, you get pre-gen ones. I was in one D&D tournament, we were all lvl 10 rogues, and we had to steal this stuff back from a lvl 20 CE Wizard. I was the only one that made it to the Wizard, and even before initiative was rolled, the DM said "I roll a natural 20, you feel yourself getting lifted up and moved back 20 feet onto a magic circle that teleports you 100,000 ft above a spike trap. You die." I did get to roll initiative, or saves, or anything. Another DM, at another tournament, had us all lvl 20 and we were all killed before the campaign even started because it took place in hell with multitudes of CR 20s. I felt terrible for the Wizard and Cleric. I mean, what Wizard has spells specifically for Hell memorized on a regular basis. As for the Cleric, because we were so far down Hell, his God couldn't hear him so he only had access to his 4th-5th level spells. A third tournament had us up against a DM who we've now nicknamed the "Undead DM" because he's known for throwing various constructs and undead at you. Yet he won't allow you to be a Ranger. His tournament had 20 characters, 12 of which were rogues. Yeah, those do so much against constructs and undead. 
In the end, those that survived made it to the head guy that had been plotting against the nation. Imagine our surprise when it turned out to be a Monstrous sized Black Dragon disguised as a Polymorph human. :surrenderThese kinds of things are why I left D&D for three years.
Or find a game run by a decent DM.
Or become the DM.
Or become the DM.
That is a possibility. Just have to come up with a really cool concept. Preferably before another player leaves the group (who's threatened to because he's tired of all the power gaming we do).
It seems that most of the dnd forum problems... come from dm's who dont know how to dm properly. Of course this is because there arent enough dm's... ... Dungeon Master is a title that shouldnt be thrown around so easilly... from now on im calling people DM' wannabees unless they can prove they are worthy of the title.
And we'll call you an elitist *******.
Anyone who brings together a group of gamers and allows them to have fun together is worthy of the title DM.
If the adventures consisted exclusively of one type of monster, I'd have chosen that monster. The problem is we never have one type of monster or being to face off against.
I believe your problem is your outlook. Favourite enemy isn't meant to be always useful in nearly every battle. You aren't meant to fight against only one type of monster or being. As your character advances you get more bonuses against your favorite enemy and get to choose other favorite enemies (thus ensuring a wider spread of possible targets)
Favored enemy is meant to give an occasional bonus, when faced with a particular monster type. And it confers a rather nice bonus to hit and damage to that type when you do. Other classes get abilities like this as well that are limited to creature type. Such as the Paladin's ability to turn undead, but choosing to play a Paladin does not warrent the DM throwing hordes of undead in every encounter.
If you get to use Favored enemy in just 1 out of 10 fights then you are doing very good with it.
As for archery. There are a good many spells available for rangers outside of the PHB, in the splat books (try the Magic Compendium for a complete list) that really give the ranger considerable powers with the bow. There are also many feats in the splat book to improve the bow, and even Favorite Enemy (Favored Critical in Masters of the wild for instant doubles your critical range against your chosen favored enemy and stacks with Keen weapons)
play a human rogue, take penetrating strike (from dungeonscape, lose trap sense, gain ability to do 1/2 sneak attack damage when you would normally be denied it. usch as constructs and undead) take a shortbow (free proficiency) don't dump STR, Deadeye shot (PHB2) is your 2nd best friend. penetrating strike is your first best friend, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, improved initiative, manyshot, greater manyshot, (psionic handbook), and for the rare melee situation, weapon finesse.
Next time I'll consider a Scout. The problem is the 10 foot move to get the +1d6 bonus. Once you move more than your 5 ft shift, you lose any ability to do a full attack. I might as well skip it, and do my three attacks at lvl 20 instead.
Unless, of course, you take the Improved Manyshot feat. I believe it's found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It allows you to add precision-based damage to every arrow in a Manyshot attack.
3 quick things: Undead is an awful favoured enemy choice - it wil only apply to skill checks as they are immune to the extra dmg in the same way they are sneak attacks
This was true in 3.0 but was changed in 3.5.
plus hello? archer ranger - piercing damage, not really much use anyway against undead.
Depends on the undead. If you're talking skeletons or liches, it's true. Zombies, vampires, ghouls, bodaks, allips, ghosts, mohrgs, and plenty of others, however, are affected normally by piecing weapons (though they may have other DR to contend with).
And finally I find the idea of a paladin not being any good very strange - people who say this are nearly always overlooking the awesome mount. they get a decent hit die, high bab, cha to saves. Enough healing to look after themselves at least in a battle. remove disease isnt brilliant i admit, but who cares if a class has 1 less useful class feature?
That "one less useful class feature" is the only thing a paladin gets at levels 6, 9, 12, and 18. At 15th, he gets more remove diseases and also smite evil. But... smite evil is also useless to an archer, since it only applies to melee attacks. So level 15 is useless, too. And so are levels 10 and 20 when the only thing a pally gets is more smites. Then toss in the utterly empty levels (7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, and 19) and that means a paladin archer doesn't get any useful class features after 5th level, when he gets his mount.
That's beyond terrible.
3 quick things: Undead is an awful favoured enemy choice - it wil only apply to skill checks as they are immune to the extra dmg in the same way they are sneak attacks plus hello? archer ranger - piercing damage, not really much use anyway against undead. Fighters are far better archers than rangers - more hp, can get the archery feats in half the time. And finally I find the idea of a paladin not being any good very strange - people who say this are nearly always overlooking the awesome mount. they get a decent hit die, high bab, cha to saves. Enough healing to look after themselves at least in a battle. remove disease isnt brilliant i admit, but who cares if a class has 1 less useful class feature?
It's been said, but 3.5 changed it and the extra damage applies to Undead as well, additionally only skeletons effect piercing damage, other Undead like Zombies, Vampires, mummies, etc are all effected by pircing rather nicely.
Even with Skeletons, it still gives a bonus to attack if the damage is reduced by their piercing DR, but more importantly is that Rangers who focus on archery would be screwed anyways when facing creatures who have DR to peircing, and would have to resort to putting the bow away and pulling out a sword instead.
Only now, with a sword, they don't have all their Duel Wielding feats since they focused on archery. At this point in time that extra bonus from Favored Enemy to attack and damage vs Undead are suddenly very nice and offset his handycap from using a melee weapon instead of a bow.
At any rate the bonus to hit Undead is always handy and the extra damage helps to overcome the DR and reduce it's effectiveness, even when the Ranger is using a bow. A DR of 5/piercing is effectively reduced by the extra damage afforded by Undead as a favoured enemy. If, as you say Rangers have a weakness vs Undead because of archery, then Favoured Enemy helps to overcome that weakness rather nicely.
That "one less useful class feature" is the only thing a paladin gets at levels 6, 9, 12, and 18. At 15th, he gets more remove diseases and also smite evil. But... smite evil is also useless to an archer, since it only applies to melee attacks. So level 15 is useless, too. And so are levels 10 and 20 when the only thing a pally gets is more smites. Then toss in the utterly empty levels (7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, and 19) and that means a paladin archer doesn't get any useful class features after 5th level, when he gets his mount.
That's beyond terrible.
I meant this in response to the general no-one would ever play a paladin thing - I agree paladin's are not the best class for an archer build. Also after 5th level the mount continues to get better - 16 levels of paladin are fine to play, if you do it right. I played with a paladin who had a unicorn - most powerful damage potential per turn I've ever had as a character although not my favourite to play. Another person I adventured with in another campain ended up with a dire lion mount. Both characters were considered to be mounts with paladin companions. After 5th level they also get spells which are not amazing but can help their combat abilities a lot as well as increase their healing potential - valuable when the cleric goes down/fails concentration checks.
Paladins are an amazing class for power builds, even if you only take 2 levelsfordivine grace.
You also need to check your rules for undead - Zombies require slashing and still have reduction to piercing. And you have to read carefully but undead are still not vulnerable to sneak attack or any other extra damage owing to the fact theycant be flanked.
At any rate the bonus to hit Undead is always handy and the extra damage helps to overcome the DR and reduce it's effectiveness, even when the Ranger is using a bow. A DR of 5/piercing is effectively reduced by the extra damage afforded by Undead as a favoured enemy. If, as you say Rangers have a weakness vs Undead because of archery, then Favoured Enemy helps to overcome that weakness rather nicely.
Sorry for the double post.
In my opinion its normally better to stack your bonuses and stack the weaknesses, pull out the club and accept your not much more than a warrior for this encounter but be awesome in the next one when you take on the necromancer
Paladins are an amazing class for power builds, even if you only take 2 levelsfordivine grace.
Divine grace is, indeed, a nice ability for a character with a decent or better Charisma.
You also need to check your rules for undead - Zombies require slashing and still have reduction to piercing. And you have to read carefully but undead are still not vulnerable to sneak attack or any other extra damage owing to the fact theycant be flanked.
Sure, let's check the rules.
Special Qualities: A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A zombie gains the following special quality.
Single Actions Only (Ex): Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge.
Nothing in there at all about DR. Now, I suspect that's an oversight, because every single sample zombie in the SRD has DR 5/slashing. So yes, if you go by the samples, piercing against a zombie will suck.
As for sneak attack... I never once said undead were susceptible to sneak attack. They aren't - though they can be flanked.
Undead are, in 3.5, susceptible to a the favored enemy bonus to damage, though. In the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, the damage was specifically changed from precision to untyped.
Likewise, he gets the same bonus to weapon damage rolls against creatures of this type. A ranger also gets the damage bonus with ranged weapons, but only against targets within 30 feet (the ranger cannot strike with deadly accuracy beyond that range). The bonus doesn't apply to damage against creatures that are immune to critical hits.
Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
Finally, to prove that omission of those sentences wasn't an oversight:
Does a ranger still deal extra damage to a favored enemy immune to critical hits (such as constructs or undead)?
Yes.
I still say paladins are an amazing class even to at least level 16 though :p
Sorry for the double post.
In my opinion its normally better to stack your bonuses and stack the weaknesses, pull out the club and accept your not much more than a warrior for this encounter but be awesome in the next one when you take on the necromancer
Oh, I agree. I would recomend pulling out a melee weapon when facing a skeleton too. My overall point here was that being reduced to a less effective weapon (because the ranger focused on archery feats) that the bonus will hellp offset his defict with a melee weapon.
I have always thought that the favored enemy of the ranger class was pretty much useless for most adventuring rangers. If a ranger is going to stay in his forest which is on the edge of the Orcsaw Mountains then choosing orc as a favored enemy is good. Most campaigns, at least from my personal experience, contain such a wide variety of different monsters that that a favored enemy is only really good for a couple of adventures. Maybe your DM is not switching the enemy types to spite your character but maybe instead is simply putting monster variety into the campaign.
I agree that's often a problem. When one of my players has a favored enemy, I generally go out of my way to work the enemy in as often as reasonable. If I have no intention to use a creature, I'll let a player know that, too. For example, I very rarely use dragons; certainly, never enough to make it a worthwhile choice. I make that clear to any players who intend to play a ranger, so that can plan accordingly.