Need advice against a pushy DM. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Need advice against a pushy DM.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mctwizzletashe
Feb 24, 2012 17:52:01 Hey all,

Basically about 6 months ago i started playing D&D with some friends, a total of 4 of us all together. 3 of us are complete beginners at D&D, and the other had been playing it on and off for around 15 years. We did our first campaign, Still in the running now btw, and our DM offered us all alot of advice on how to create rather powerfull character, offering advice on Feats, skills, etc.

Now we've started another campaign which me and one of the other players are running. Problem is this time our old DM is trying to shape us into the players he wants to be. He's more stat-focussed than RP-focussed, Something we disagree with as this is a roleplay game afterall. It's causing a serious rift within our gaming group. I'll keep the actual players names anonymous, and replace with numbers.

1(Me) - Getting progressively disheartened by all the behind-back arguing, wants to play a Roleplaying character but choose feats which'll do good.
2(My co-DM) - Moaning behind backs about origional DM being stroppy with him. Wants to choose "under-powered" feats which he feels suits his character
3(Other member) Sits on the fence, plays DnD more for the social scene/company then the actual game.
4(Origional DM) - Moaning about my Co-DM to everyone about not optimising, choosing of "Odd" race/class combinations whilst rolling up a Shardmind Monk

So, Forum, any advice for me before the Dice get thrown aside and real fists start being thrown?

Much appreciated,
#2
salla
Feb 24, 2012 17:58:14 First:
"I appreciate your offer to help me build my character, and will take your advice under consideration. However, the ultimate decision on how I build my character is my own. If I choose not to take the 'best' option, that's my choice and I would appreciate it if you would stop harping on us."

Next:
"I would appreciate it if you'd stop going on about this. It's my character and ultimately my decision. Please stop criticizing my build choices."

After that:
"Dude? Shut the f**k up, I'm tired of hearing it."
#3
randomvirus
Feb 24, 2012 18:48:51 MY BODY MY CHOICE!
#4
wystenv2
Feb 24, 2012 19:11:45 Most of the time, unless one is willing to reduce themselves to the extent that they can't preform a role in day to day life at all (A defender having the def of a sponge for example) then the guy doesn't really have much to complain about.

Simply explain that while his comments are useful (and they probably are) that ultimately it's down to the player what exactly they do with their feats. He's probably trying to help and is unaware of how he is coming across. Just have a quick personal chat with him out of ear shot with the other members and just build that understanding. While you respected the rules in his settings, now is the time for him to to pay respect to yours.

On the country, I don't believe your feat choice should affect how you roleplay at all, just pick the ones that accomplish what you aim to do. Even if it's functionally the best way to do it.
#5
kissofthescorpion
Feb 25, 2012 6:04:14 At the risk of sounding like a devils advocate. When I started playing 4th ed when it first came out with a group of experienced and newbies. I found that some people chose purely defensive feats and powers. For a while I couldn't understand why combats became really long winded and boring at first I realised later that one wizard had few attack spells but was a eldarin with phase step expiditious retreat and dimension door. So spent most combats running away from the enemy rather than blasting them. The. Elf ranger striker did similar leaving a warlord and fighter to do all the combat. Talk to your dm about what games he wants to play. If he wants to focus I'm combat heavy adventures maybe he is trying to help you have a tough party to survive. If you want.to play in a role play heavy but less combatative campaign then you need to talk about it otherwise you both are not going to have fun.
#6
cougon
Feb 26, 2012 21:50:37 This is the classic 'optimizer player' vs 'non-optimizer player' conflict that I have experienced on occasion. The sad truth is that there will be no peace unless/until one side either caves to the other or one side shuts up. The optimizer will constantly harp to and about the non-optimizer and the non-optimizer will feel ever increasing amounts of frustration and anger towards the optimizer. It's been my experience that it's the optimizer that needs to either accept that the rest of the players aren't optimizers or simply shut up about it and deal with it since it's his harping that's causing all the problems. That being said, I agree with the previous poster that unless someone can't play their role, such as a tank having the defense of wet tissue paper, then there is no problem with whatever feat/race/class combinations someone chooses to play. The only advice I can give is to talk to the optimizer and tell him to knock it off and shut up about other players' characters.
#7
Unahim
Feb 27, 2012 11:15:22 In my current game of D&D, I'm playing a Changeling who's a Changeling Feat Rogue 1(yes, that's 2 class substitution options, but they exchange different stuff, so)/Beguiler 4. She's very focused on social situations and skills, which made her pretty superfluous in combat against a bunch of zombies on an island. She's starting to get into her own as an illusion support battlefield controller now, but before that she was pretty weak. Nobody complained.
(she also rolled 1 on hit points 3 time in a row, which is just terrible)

In my last game of Shadowrun, I played an unoptimized pop-star/magician. Now, you may not know this, but Shadowrun is all about illicit activities against major corporations and such, so it's Robin Hood-esque at best(fight against the evil corporations, get money) and downright criminal at worst. Playing a pop-star coerced into this double-life of crime was already a pretty risky move since it leaves a data trail through the matrix(the internet of the future) the size of a small planet, and if you add to that the fact that putting so many of my build points into singing and such totally gimped my casting, you arrive at the conclusion that the character is pretty underpowered in game terms.(although magicians are hard to go wrong with, actually..)

So yeah, both characters had a lot more RP going for them rather than optimisation, nobody complained, it was great fun. DMs will tend to keep into account that your party is weakened due to these sub-optimal choices at any rate, so I don't think you're being selfish for playing a weak character. I've been known to be quite the powergamer in a different group(since they just didn't rp much), so it's not like I'm against optimizing either... Both stances can be fun to play.

I know for a fact my next character is going to be a blind-since-birth artificer. I'm hoping for some concesssions from my DM(mainly blindness as a flaw and being allowed to take this homebrew feat: goo.gl/gWqJU , I'll still be greatly weakened, but it'd be playable ^^) but I'll probably do it anyway, because characters like this can just be plain fun ^^
#8
tubaman
Feb 27, 2012 13:59:59 the non-optimizing characters can ignore the optimizer, or continue to tell him to stuff it to very great effect. The optimizing character has no say so in how the rest of you build characters...at all.

HOWEVER, the non-optimizers may have to get ready to be sidekicks or worse, at least in combat. A heavily optimized D&D 4e character (of which a shardmind monk is most certainly NOT) will completely blow most combats away compared to characters built using less optimized race/class combos, stat allocations, or feat selections.

If you have a particularly creative DM, who is willing to custom-make all his encounters to give everyone equal spotlight time in and out of combat, letting all players shine without ever making any character obsolete, then you can pull this off regardless, even with the giant rift in character "effectiveness."

If the non-optimizing players are fine taking a backseat in combats (and possibly some skill-uses) and the optimizing character is considerate enough not to attempt to make every situation devolve into combat (or whatever he happens to excel at), then your group will work.

if the optimizing character forces his way all the time (lets face it, its easy to turn most situations into a combat), or the non-optimizing characters still refuse the "best" (and i use the term VERY loosely) choices and then get frustrated that they have less combined effectiveness in combat than one of the other guy's minor actions, then your group won't work.....sit down out of game and work it out or find a new player.
#9
lordfeint
Feb 28, 2012 13:23:35 Just plain call him out the next time he opens his mouth.

Its about everyone having fun, not walking on broken glass because of one person's opinions on how things should be played.

#10
Iry
Mar 17, 2012 9:43:39 There are three important parts to your situation. I will list them in no specific order.

1) Explain to the player offering advice that his advice makes you feel uncomfortable and you would prefer to have the freedom to build your character in the way that you desire. If he presists then speak to your current DM about an intervention.

2) Most of the time you do not actually need to pick sub-par feats to successfully roleplay a character concept. A healthy compromise can usually be found between Roleplay and Rollplay, so always ask yourself if a given feat or power is actually important to your concept.

3) The Rollplayer does have a right to enjoy the game as much as you, so while he should not be making you feel uncomfortable for building your character a certain way neither should you make him feel uncomfortable for building his character a certain way.
#11
Krusk
Mar 17, 2012 10:26:25
The DM is trying to focus the game on the dungeon crawl aspects but all the players want to focus on the social situations? Ask him to let someone else take a shot at DMing.

It isn't as hard as most people claim.
#12
southwood_wanderer
Apr 12, 2012 0:11:56 The simplest solution is to have the DM include roleplay challenges where the RP characters are in the spotlight. Then they can rag on the optimizer about how useless his combat prowess was at that social gathering as they played social chess with the local socialites as pawns. Turning the tables like that can offer a change of perspective. If you balance such encounters with challenging combats, everyone should feel useful.

I was very fortunate that the only time I have ever played with a true powergamer, it was a 3.5 campaign and I was a druid. We were at very high levels, and even with a fairly vanilla druid, my animal companion and I easily contributed as much or more than he did with his complex melee wtf.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mctwizzletashe Feb 24, 2012 17:52:01	Hey all, Basically about 6 months ago i started playing D&D with some friends, a total of 4 of us all together. 3 of us are complete beginners at D&D, and the other had been playing it on and off for around 15 years. We did our first campaign, Still in the running now btw, and our DM offered us all alot of advice on how to create rather powerfull character, offering advice on Feats, skills, etc. Now we've started another campaign which me and one of the other players are running. Problem is this time our old DM is trying to shape us into the players he wants to be. He's more stat-focussed than RP-focussed, Something we disagree with as this is a roleplay game afterall. It's causing a serious rift within our gaming group. I'll keep the actual players names anonymous, and replace with numbers. 1(Me) - Getting progressively disheartened by all the behind-back arguing, wants to play a Roleplaying character but choose feats which'll do good. 2(My co-DM) - Moaning behind backs about origional DM being stroppy with him. Wants to choose "under-powered" feats which he feels suits his character 3(Other member) Sits on the fence, plays DnD more for the social scene/company then the actual game. 4(Origional DM) - Moaning about my Co-DM to everyone about not optimising, choosing of "Odd" race/class combinations whilst rolling up a Shardmind Monk So, Forum, any advice for me before the Dice get thrown aside and real fists start being thrown? Much appreciated,
#2 salla Feb 24, 2012 17:58:14	First: "I appreciate your offer to help me build my character, and will take your advice under consideration. However, the ultimate decision on how I build my character is my own. If I choose not to take the 'best' option, that's my choice and I would appreciate it if you would stop harping on us." Next: "I would appreciate it if you'd stop going on about this. It's my character and ultimately my decision. Please stop criticizing my build choices." After that: "Dude? Shut the f**k up, I'm tired of hearing it."
#3 randomvirus Feb 24, 2012 18:48:51	MY BODY MY CHOICE!
#4 wystenv2 Feb 24, 2012 19:11:45	Most of the time, unless one is willing to reduce themselves to the extent that they can't preform a role in day to day life at all (A defender having the def of a sponge for example) then the guy doesn't really have much to complain about. Simply explain that while his comments are useful (and they probably are) that ultimately it's down to the player what exactly they do with their feats. He's probably trying to help and is unaware of how he is coming across. Just have a quick personal chat with him out of ear shot with the other members and just build that understanding. While you respected the rules in his settings, now is the time for him to to pay respect to yours. On the country, I don't believe your feat choice should affect how you roleplay at all, just pick the ones that accomplish what you aim to do. Even if it's functionally the best way to do it.
#5 kissofthescorpion Feb 25, 2012 6:04:14	At the risk of sounding like a devils advocate. When I started playing 4th ed when it first came out with a group of experienced and newbies. I found that some people chose purely defensive feats and powers. For a while I couldn't understand why combats became really long winded and boring at first I realised later that one wizard had few attack spells but was a eldarin with phase step expiditious retreat and dimension door. So spent most combats running away from the enemy rather than blasting them. The. Elf ranger striker did similar leaving a warlord and fighter to do all the combat. Talk to your dm about what games he wants to play. If he wants to focus I'm combat heavy adventures maybe he is trying to help you have a tough party to survive. If you want.to play in a role play heavy but less combatative campaign then you need to talk about it otherwise you both are not going to have fun.
#6 cougon Feb 26, 2012 21:50:37	This is the classic 'optimizer player' vs 'non-optimizer player' conflict that I have experienced on occasion. The sad truth is that there will be no peace unless/until one side either caves to the other or one side shuts up. The optimizer will constantly harp to and about the non-optimizer and the non-optimizer will feel ever increasing amounts of frustration and anger towards the optimizer. It's been my experience that it's the optimizer that needs to either accept that the rest of the players aren't optimizers or simply shut up about it and deal with it since it's his harping that's causing all the problems. That being said, I agree with the previous poster that unless someone can't play their role, such as a tank having the defense of wet tissue paper, then there is no problem with whatever feat/race/class combinations someone chooses to play. The only advice I can give is to talk to the optimizer and tell him to knock it off and shut up about other players' characters.
#7 Unahim Feb 27, 2012 11:15:22	In my current game of D&D, I'm playing a Changeling who's a Changeling Feat Rogue 1(yes, that's 2 class substitution options, but they exchange different stuff, so)/Beguiler 4. She's very focused on social situations and skills, which made her pretty superfluous in combat against a bunch of zombies on an island. She's starting to get into her own as an illusion support battlefield controller now, but before that she was pretty weak. Nobody complained. (she also rolled 1 on hit points 3 time in a row, which is just terrible) In my last game of Shadowrun, I played an unoptimized pop-star/magician. Now, you may not know this, but Shadowrun is all about illicit activities against major corporations and such, so it's Robin Hood-esque at best(fight against the evil corporations, get money) and downright criminal at worst. Playing a pop-star coerced into this double-life of crime was already a pretty risky move since it leaves a data trail through the matrix(the internet of the future) the size of a small planet, and if you add to that the fact that putting so many of my build points into singing and such totally gimped my casting, you arrive at the conclusion that the character is pretty underpowered in game terms.(although magicians are hard to go wrong with, actually..) So yeah, both characters had a lot more RP going for them rather than optimisation, nobody complained, it was great fun. DMs will tend to keep into account that your party is weakened due to these sub-optimal choices at any rate, so I don't think you're being selfish for playing a weak character. I've been known to be quite the powergamer in a different group(since they just didn't rp much), so it's not like I'm against optimizing either... Both stances can be fun to play. I know for a fact my next character is going to be a blind-since-birth artificer. I'm hoping for some concesssions from my DM(mainly blindness as a flaw and being allowed to take this homebrew feat: goo.gl/gWqJU , I'll still be greatly weakened, but it'd be playable ^^) but I'll probably do it anyway, because characters like this can just be plain fun ^^
#8 tubaman Feb 27, 2012 13:59:59	the non-optimizing characters can ignore the optimizer, or continue to tell him to stuff it to very great effect. The optimizing character has no say so in how the rest of you build characters...at all. HOWEVER, the non-optimizers may have to get ready to be sidekicks or worse, at least in combat. A heavily optimized D&D 4e character (of which a shardmind monk is most certainly NOT) will completely blow most combats away compared to characters built using less optimized race/class combos, stat allocations, or feat selections. If you have a particularly creative DM, who is willing to custom-make all his encounters to give everyone equal spotlight time in and out of combat, letting all players shine without ever making any character obsolete, then you can pull this off regardless, even with the giant rift in character "effectiveness." If the non-optimizing players are fine taking a backseat in combats (and possibly some skill-uses) and the optimizing character is considerate enough not to attempt to make every situation devolve into combat (or whatever he happens to excel at), then your group will work. if the optimizing character forces his way all the time (lets face it, its easy to turn most situations into a combat), or the non-optimizing characters still refuse the "best" (and i use the term VERY loosely) choices and then get frustrated that they have less combined effectiveness in combat than one of the other guy's minor actions, then your group won't work.....sit down out of game and work it out or find a new player.
#9 lordfeint Feb 28, 2012 13:23:35	Just plain call him out the next time he opens his mouth. Its about everyone having fun, not walking on broken glass because of one person's opinions on how things should be played.
#10 Iry Mar 17, 2012 9:43:39	There are three important parts to your situation. I will list them in no specific order. 1) Explain to the player offering advice that his advice makes you feel uncomfortable and you would prefer to have the freedom to build your character in the way that you desire. If he presists then speak to your current DM about an intervention. 2) Most of the time you do not actually need to pick sub-par feats to successfully roleplay a character concept. A healthy compromise can usually be found between Roleplay and Rollplay, so always ask yourself if a given feat or power is actually important to your concept. 3) The Rollplayer does have a right to enjoy the game as much as you, so while he should not be making you feel uncomfortable for building your character a certain way neither should you make him feel uncomfortable for building his character a certain way.
#11 Krusk Mar 17, 2012 10:26:25	The DM is trying to focus the game on the dungeon crawl aspects but all the players want to focus on the social situations? Ask him to let someone else take a shot at DMing. It isn't as hard as most people claim.
#12 southwood_wanderer Apr 12, 2012 0:11:56	The simplest solution is to have the DM include roleplay challenges where the RP characters are in the spotlight. Then they can rag on the optimizer about how useless his combat prowess was at that social gathering as they played social chess with the local socialites as pawns. Turning the tables like that can offer a change of perspective. If you balance such encounters with challenging combats, everyone should feel useful. I was very fortunate that the only time I have ever played with a true powergamer, it was a 3.5 campaign and I was a druid. We were at very high levels, and even with a fairly vanilla druid, my animal companion and I easily contributed as much or more than he did with his complex melee wtf.