Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 darklyte Feb 27, 2010 11:26:35	Hi everyone, In my current gaming group we have a small, three member party.  I play a Tiefling Bard (Presience) and we have a Genasi Warden (Lifespirit) and a Half-Elf Avenger (Pursuit).  I, personally, have a lot of knowledge about the game mostly because I have a lot of free time to read up on things, despite the fact that we only play once per week.  (I'd love to play more, but as it goes it is the only time that everyone is free.)  I try to feel the role of leader in many situations, but not just the healer role.  Since I am aware of a lot of tactics and advantages available, I try to help the other players make smart decisions that will aid the entire party. Our warden is okay with my suggestions and, in fact, commonly comes to me for advice.  We discuss how our abilities interact with each others and how we can optimize to work well together since there are only three of us.  The small party means that if someone makes a grievous mistake then there aren't many others to help the party recover from it.  Synergy is very important and we work really well together.  He even corrects my suggestions many times and we get along very well, both as players and characters.  While his character jokes around with mine a lot, my character knows that his trusts her, and she trusts him in return. The avenger, however, is different.  He plays a somewhat dark and broody character, as we expected.  He doesn't discuss with the party much and usually makes decisions on his own, both in and out of character.  Whenever I attempt to give him tactical advice, be it with character design, combat tactics, or even helping him remember the abilities of his character he snaps at me.  I am pretty sure his character does not like mine, and not just because I'm a tiefling.  Perhaps that has influenced it, but he (and his character, on separate occasions) have mentioned that my character is useless because I don't use a weapon (She doesn't really like hurting people so she uses an implement and just calls them names.  She doesn't keep a weapon out so she doesn't take advantage of OAs) and because she tries to stay at range.  He gets upset with me when I heal his character, saying he can take care of himself, but also gets upset if I don't and calls me useless for not doing my job.  He has often commented that I am the leader and shouldn't be running away from things. I want our party to work together and I like seeing him do well, but sometimes I wonder how interested he is in the game at all.  He never remembers when his censure of pursuit triggers even though I purposefully pull mobs away from him so he'll get it.  He with Oath of Emnity the biggest mob, then go attack something else and use mostly ranged implement attacks, despite having a some of the best melee weapons and abilities in the party.  He usually just refuses to get in melee at all, sometimes moving just out of melee range of a monster then attacking it with his hand crossbow rather than an at-will.  He rarely uses his encounter powers and... I could go on.  Last thing I will mention is that he uses a longsword and doesn't use it with both hands. I want to help him out so that our party works well together, but he seems offended every time I do.  When he forgets to add damage or attack bonus he seems to snap at me, but he seems just as frustrated when he doesn't hit.  I don't want to control his character and decisions because I know they are his own, but I want to make sure he remembers what his decisions where and how they impact our group.  I want his character and mine to get along (my character just wants to be friends with everyone) but I don't know what I can offer him as symbol of peace.  What can I do to be a good leader to him, without being a controller?
#2 chaosturtle Feb 27, 2010 12:34:36	I'd recommend showing him this thread.
#3 kharmin Mar 01, 2010 15:04:40	How long has he been playing?  One of the things that was difficult for me to grasp (coming from 2ed to 4e) was the concept of character roles.  Once I wrapped my head around that and how they interact with the other roles, things became a bit clearer/easier. /me shrugs @'s
#4 grumpycelt Mar 01, 2010 19:28:55	Give him enough rope to hang himself with, and then let him do just that. Helping him will only lead to pointless confrontations.
#5 sobchak Mar 01, 2010 22:04:45	It sounds like you have multiple problems going on.  If the dark and brooding Avenger does not like your tiefling bard for in game/RP reasons, I don't understand why he would snap at you for reminding him to add a damage bonus.  That sounds like a maturity issue to me.  Try hard to improve the communication with this player.  The situation you describe is of someone threatened by your knowledge of the game.  Perhaps you can encourage him to use his powers more.  Outside the game, tell him how cool X power or class feature is.  I really find myself wondering, based on your description of the situation, how well this player knows the rules and mechanical elements of the game.  That alone might explain his behavior, both in and out of game.
#6 darklyte Mar 02, 2010 10:26:03	How long has he been playing?  One of the things that was difficult for me to grasp (coming from 2ed to 4e) was the concept of character roles.  Once I wrapped my head around that and how they interact with the other roles, things became a bit clearer/easier. /me shrugs @'s I've known him since high school (so about 12 years) and while we were out of contact for a long time, I know he's been into RPGs at least since then.  Him and his friends have been designing their own game which I think distracts him.  He wants to use my group to test his game, but we don't want to.  We have tried it in the past and thought it was okay, but when we make suggestions for how to improve it and things never get changed.  Anyway... It sounds like you have multiple problems going on.  If the dark and brooding Avenger does not like your tiefling bard for in game/RP reasons, I don't understand why he would snap at you for reminding him to add a damage bonus.  That sounds like a maturity issue to me.  Try hard to improve the communication with this player.  The situation you describe is of someone threatened by your knowledge of the game.  Perhaps you can encourage him to use his powers more.  Outside the game, tell him how cool X power or class feature is.  I really find myself wondering, based on your description of the situation, how well this player knows the rules and mechanical elements of the game.  That alone might explain his behavior, both in and out of game. Yeah, as a player I have no problem with him not liking my character, though my character doesn't like it.  You're probably right, I need to approach this differently.  Rather than suggesting he do something, make him think it was his idea.   Hopefully this will get him thinking about the other cool things he can do with his character.  I don't think he realize how powerful his character can be.
#7 farenal Mar 02, 2010 11:00:44	Sounds like he should've rolled up a ranger instead of an avenger... If he keeps complaining don't help him. Explain why you're not helping him when he whines, and then ignore him until he realizes that you're just trying to do what's best for the group. Or you could just try and remind him what his role should be.
#8 fugacityfixyoursite Mar 02, 2010 13:41:56	If you show him the ultimate awesomeness of Sequestering Strike (assuming he's of a level and took it - which he should have) and he still doesn't use it, I'd give up on him as a lost cause. He never remembers when his censure of pursuit triggers even though I purposefully pull mobs away from him so he'll get it. Also, this doesn't work. The Compendium: If your oath of enmity target moves away from you willingly...
#9 darklyte Mar 02, 2010 14:41:36	Sounds like he should've rolled up a ranger instead of an avenger... If he keeps complaining don't help him. Explain why you're not helping him when he whines, and then ignore him until he realizes that you're just trying to do what's best for the group. Or you could just try and remind him what his role should be.   Yeah, I'll probably try that as well.  There is no reason for me to take abuse when I'm just trying to lend assistance If you show him the ultimate awesomeness of Sequestering Strike (assuming he's of a level and took it - which he should have) and he still doesn't use it, I'd give up on him as a lost cause. When we got that level, I went over his character with him to make suggestions.  I didn't force anything, but I did point out how awesome Sequestering strike was.  He actually ended up nearly one-shotting a boss with it (well, killing the boss by himself in a single round) since his demon die seems to always roll 20s. He never remembers when his censure of pursuit triggers even though I purposefully pull mobs away from him so he'll get it. Also, this doesn't work. The Compendium: If your oath of enmity target moves away from you willingly... Sorry, I didn't mean literal pulls.  I mean that I just make his mobs want to attack other targets (usually me).  I misdirecting mark his oath targets on our warden and just generally piss off the other mobs.  Plus the GM likes attacking me since I don't use a melee weapon and therefore can't make opportunity actions. I do appreciate pointing out potential rule misinterpretations or misreadings.  We learned last week that enemies get a saving throw when they are teleported into unsafe locations, such as directly into the air.  If they save, the teleport is negated.