To start off, I have over 6 years of experience. I have pretty much been playing DND since 3E came out, and know the rules pretty well. I am almost always the DM, though I have played with 8-10 other DM's total, and I have DMed almost any group of people you can think of. So I know what DMing traits people like, and what ones they dont. I also know what kind of players to not let play with you.
Anyway, this guy claims to have been playing since 1E, but he goes to college with me, so just from his age, I don't think he is truthful, but that is beside the point.
The main point, is he sucked. Why did he suck? There are many reasons. For starters, he doesn't own any books, and thus, didn't play by any set of rules, and didn't have a dungeon prepared, he only had a story prepared.
Now his campaign idea was very interesting, and his story was good. The idea in general had great potential. The reason it sucked, is because he doesn't know how to DM and cater to player's needs.
I will sum up most of his shortcomings.
1: He is a big abuser of the, (#1 rule is DM's rule) concept. That is actually the number 3 rule. !st is that the DM is making a game to be fun for the players. If that rule is broken, the game is no fun, and there is no point playing. #2 is the opposite, the players need to take the DM's campaign seriously. Anyway, I digress.
2: By the end of the sitting, all the players felt like puppets. It seemed like we had no real say in what happened even though we had "free will". Sorta like a Greek tragedy. To put it bluntly, it was like reading a choose your own adventure book, and the going back every time you see "the end" and making a different decision. The story is very linear, and our options are presented to us, we are not choosing them. There are many reasons it felt like this, and I know most of them, because I've seen them before.
3: No books. Like I said before, he had no books. He was pulling encounters, monsters and numbers out of his ass and if we almost die, he would say something like "o wait! I mean 4 damage." We might as well not have had character sheets, because ultimately, it felt like stats didn't matter.
4: 4 is just various bad DMing habits that kill the mood, which are mostly a result of his personality.
All of my friends were unsatisfied with the campaign. We all made excuses to leave early, and at the end, he asked when we want to play again. We havnt told him the bad news yet, but we don't want to play again with him as DM.
I want to tell him everything he did wrong, in a constructive criticism sort of way, so as not to hurt his feelings, and I want to be the DM next time, with him as a player.
I know most of the things he can fix to be a good DM, but I don't know how to tell him, and I don't know how soon they will be put in practice, which is why I do not want him to DM again right away.
If we play again, it will be another bad experience, so I need to talk to him, but how can I do it without creating a different bad experience?
Any thoughts? I know it was long.
But most importantly, don't lie to him. That is a very bad route that will not lead to good things. If you want another good DM, then you're going to have to point out his flaws. At the same time, don't come down to hard. Relate to him. I'm sure you weren't a good DM when you started.
2-take turns
3-im only 16 and play all three editions...
4- you are using your bias to persuade people to believe your propaganda..
5- get him in here so we can hear what HE has to say
6- get over it, there are several people that you won't like but will have to put up with.
7-dm has final say
8-most people don't need their head stuck in a book all the time...
Or if it helps show him this thread. Your reasons why you would prefer he not run until he gains some experience are well organized.
Hopefully honest criticism will help him grow as a DM, if not at least as a group you'll be able to get back to the game you enjoy without having to be deceitful.
1-don't rant on about how you are so good and how he sucks
2-take turns
3-im only 16 and play all three editions...
4- you are using your bias to persuade people to believe your propaganda..
5- get him in here so we can hear what HE has to say
6- get over it, there are several people that you won't like but will have to put up with.
7-dm has final say
8-most people don't need their head stuck in a book all the time...
Hate to break the news to you, but there are more than 3 editions of D&D out there. There is atleast 5, I have been playing D&D since before you were born and I still have problems counting exactly how many there are.
Chain Mail
Dungeons and Dragons
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
AD&D 2nd edition
AD&D 3rd edition
AD&D 3.5 edition
AD&D 4.0 edition
Looks like 7 editions to me, someone correct my count if I am wrong here.
P.S. Sakuradm, not sure what your problem is. Why would anyone spread propaganda about a DM? Why are you so defensive about this? Squeeky wheel gets the greese huh?
3: No books. Like I said before, he had no books. He was pulling encounters, monsters and numbers out of his ass and if we almost die, he would say something like "o wait! I mean 4 damage." We might as well not have had character sheets, because ultimately, it felt like stats didn't matter.
I have had this before. Frustrating as anything. My advice would be to replace him. The other possibility is to try a different system, which the DM can run, and tell him to use the actual stats, and not just the rolls.
But I bet you won't. I double-dog-dare you.:P
I think you should leave your "my way" and "I'm a great DM" at the door before talking to him. It is not a question of gaming resume, it's a question of "do we want to game together?" The answer might quite likely be "No" as your styles seem radically different, but if you go into the conversation with the attitude of your post... well you don't have to be a prick is all I'm saying.
Good luck!
Anyways, offer to loan him your books. Subtly encourage him to prepare his campaign ("To run a good session, I ALWAYS need to prepare. Don't you?") You can probably talk to him about habits 1-3 and have him amend them for your game. They sound mostly like a lack of preparation, coupled with an inability to improvise.
But number 4...is he 'fixable'? Or do you need a new DM? Only you can tell that. But he can't change his personality, which you say is to blame for his faults.
This could be a painful and/or awkward conversation, but he could be a good DM with practice. You just need to give him constructive criticism and help him to do better. You said that the other players felt the same as you, but I would make sure of that before talking to him. Maybe they'll back you up.
Finally, keep in mind that if he has DMed before, this might be the play style his previous group enjoyed. I have a DM who takes, shall we say, a looser interpretation of the rules. I just relax and enjoy it. If you don't like his play style, however, explain to him what your play style is and perhaps DM an example of it for him. Have the other players back you up on this.
Good luck! I hope all goes well!
-Count Dravda
Anyways, I would point him towards the Dungeon Master's Guide II; it's loaded with information on how to be a good DM.
Or
Invite him over for dinner, make friends with him, and right when he doesn't expect it- BAM! The old fork in the eye.
The fork-in-the-eye method sends a message that, even if misinterpretted, is guaranteed to yield the desired results.
So I played with a new DM for the first time today. He is new to our group, and usually I am DM, so I welcomed the opportunity. I need some help on what to do.
To start off, I have over 6 years of experience. I have pretty much been playing DND since 3E came out, and know the rules pretty well. I am almost always the DM, though I have played with 8-10 other DM's total, and I have DMed almost any group of people you can think of. So I know what DMing traits people like, and what ones they dont. I also know what kind of players to not let play with you.
Anyway, this guy claims to have been playing since 1E, but he goes to college with me, so just from his age, I don't think he is truthful, but that is beside the point.
The main point, is he sucked. Why did he suck? There are many reasons. For starters, he doesn't own any books, and thus, didn't play by any set of rules, and didn't have a dungeon prepared, he only had a story prepared.
Now his campaign idea was very interesting, and his story was good. The idea in general had great potential. The reason it sucked, is because he doesn't know how to DM and cater to player's needs.
I will sum up most of his shortcomings.
1: He is a big abuser of the, (#1 rule is DM's rule) concept. That is actually the number 3 rule. !st is that the DM is making a game to be fun for the players. If that rule is broken, the game is no fun, and there is no point playing. #2 is the opposite, the players need to take the DM's campaign seriously. Anyway, I digress.
2: By the end of the sitting, all the players felt like puppets. It seemed like we had no real say in what happened even though we had "free will". Sorta like a Greek tragedy. To put it bluntly, it was like reading a choose your own adventure book, and the going back every time you see "the end" and making a different decision. The story is very linear, and our options are presented to us, we are not choosing them. There are many reasons it felt like this, and I know most of them, because I've seen them before.
3: No books. Like I said before, he had no books. He was pulling encounters, monsters and numbers out of his ass and if we almost die, he would say something like "o wait! I mean 4 damage." We might as well not have had character sheets, because ultimately, it felt like stats didn't matter.
4: 4 is just various bad DMing habits that kill the mood, which are mostly a result of his personality.
All of my friends were unsatisfied with the campaign. We all made excuses to leave early, and at the end, he asked when we want to play again. We havnt told him the bad news yet, but we don't want to play again with him as DM.
I want to tell him everything he did wrong, in a constructive criticism sort of way, so as not to hurt his feelings, and I want to be the DM next time, with him as a player.
I know most of the things he can fix to be a good DM, but I don't know how to tell him, and I don't know how soon they will be put in practice, which is why I do not want him to DM again right away.
If we play again, it will be another bad experience, so I need to talk to him, but how can I do it without creating a different bad experience?
Any thoughts? I know it was long.
Just offer to help him: have meetings and let him use your books (this depends on how strict you are on lending your books, but I did it once, for one day only and bidding the other to treat them better than if they were his own).
This may solve a part of the issues.
The other issues seem related to him being accustomed to older D&D editions: the DM I lent the books to had this very problem. He did prove himself unable to adjust his style of play to the new system; for instance he misunderstood 3E XP reward system, mixing it with AD&D XP/monster, so a pair of Frost Worms (EL 14) gave 16200 XP each to a 10th level party (he didn't undestrand the difference between EL and CR). More than once we gained ridicolously high amount of XP, ending 1 XP under the level after the one just gained (by the rules you cannot gain two levels at once). He kept treasure level too low (based on old AD&D treasure tables: we always ended up with tons of copper coins and some potions and nearly no new magic items). And so on.
Try to help him getting in the 3E mind, give him advice.
The fork-in-the-eye method sends a message that, even if misinterpretted, is guaranteed to yield the desired results.
Partial blindness?
The main problem with that though, is he is running an ongoing campaign, and expects to continue it.
Too bad for him. Tell him that he needs to buy some books and watch a real DM (i.e. you) play, that players need to feel like they're active affecting the plot rather than being led along a fanfic, and that he needs to buy some books so he can learn the rules and stop sucking. Tell him he can claim to have been playing since 10 years before he was born if he wants, but until he gets actual game experience through being a player, he's not running anything but his own legs back to his dorm.
Be meaner than this if it doesn't sink in immediately. The ol' fork in the eye should do the trick.
1-don't rant on about how you are so good and how he sucks
2-take turns
3-im only 16 and play all three editions...
4- you are using your bias to persuade people to believe your propaganda..
5- get him in here so we can hear what HE has to say
6- get over it, there are several people that you won't like but will have to put up with.
7-dm has final say
8-most people don't need their head stuck in a book all the time...
@ the OP: Feel free to ignore posts like this that offer no constructive advice.
The problem you are encountering has nothing to do with D&D. You have a social dilemma. A colleague of yours is performing poorly, and it is affecting you and your friends. If you wish to continue associating with this colleague, or attempt to become friends with him, you simply need to explain his mistakes to him. This is a very delicate maneuver since you are not yet friends. If you speak to him in the wrong manner or in a way he doesn't respond well to, you could easily offend him or hurt his feelings. Since I know neither of you, I can't give you advice on how such a conversation could be articulated. The only advice I can give is to be careful, and think how about how you will tell him. The what should come easy to you, as you've articulated it well here.
Good luck.
The main question that has been hinted at before is , Is he a bad DM, or just different from your groups style? Most of the time this is the situation. His other groups might like hi style of play.
Not having the books does not make someone a bad DM. Does he know the actual rules. IE does he know how combat is suppose to work? There is nothing wrong with him "changing" the stats for the monsters you are facing. Actually it helps to prevent meta-gaming.
If you do'nt like his play style thats fine. Nothing wrong with that. I have been told by players that they did not like my play style in 2nd ed. So I turned into a player and let one of the others run. It increased the enjoyability of the whole group. He was better than me at running.
As far as a way to handle the situation is simple. Talk to him. Tell him that his style does not work well with our style. Sincehe has never played with ya'll before offer to run a few games with him as a player. That way he gets sometime with the other players and can understand the type of game they are wanting to play.
Hope this helps.
Option 2: Co-DM a session or five with him. Walk him through the particulars your group is used to. Help him with rules questions and navigating the books. Once he gets more attuned with the rules and your group's dynamic, take the training wheels off and enjoy.
Option 3: Fork in the eye.
The main problem with that though, is he is running an ongoing campaign, and expects to continue it. I can't tell him they really wana play mine, cause im currently not running an ongoing one. If i wana DM I will have to start a new campaign, and he will be asking why we cant continue his. I will still need to give him a good reason. =[
Honestly if the group as a whole think he is lacking and its effecting the game negatively just tell the man. I would have everyone prepared to pick up a new game with you running. If he doesn't heed your advice and the group continues to hate it, pick up your books and run a new game. It may be the only way to get it through to him. Also, provide him the chance once everyone leaves to come and learn the game better but only after the game is ready to run. Other then that, Good luck is the only other thing I can tell you.
I want to tell him everything he did wrong, in a constructive criticism sort of way, so as not to hurt his feelings, and I want to be the DM next time, with him as a player.
Then freakin' tell him. Be upfront and tell him what you think he did wrong and offer solutions. Which is better--to be presented with facts and the truth or wonder why no one wants to play your game because no one is willing to say anything about how badly you run game? (I know it's not your game, but what if it was?)
Partial blindness?
If you are using the method then you know what your desired results are :D.
Tell you what. Invite him here. Let us hear his side, we'll give advice to both of you.
But I bet you won't. I double-dog-dare you.:P
Have you done this yet, kamiyoko?
Have you done this yet, kamiyoko?
Maybe he elected to go with the fork-in-the-eye method instead? :D
Oh and not to nitpick, but 3E came out more than 6 years ago, like 98 or 99 I think.
Run your own game, invite him as a player.
He might pick it up, he might not.
If he's in college now, there's no way he's been "Playing since 1e."
He might have played 1e, but it wasn't actively in print.
Sounds like he's rules loose, and without a book? seems like he likes the story, more than the crunch.
Idea just came to me...Hop onto Ebay, and buy a set of 1e, or 2e books fro him, as a gift, since you or most of your group already have 3.X, likely, yes?
Then he's got rules. His style is really a 1e style, fast and loose, lots of story, made up as you go, Not the kind that 3rd ed needs at all, with the stat blocks and whatnot.
Good luck, I think you might do well to do something along those lines, or mentor him on the side.