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Need some help...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
antisuperman
Sep 28, 2012 12:29:32 Howdy. Long time D&D player but just now getting into 4e (what can I say? I'm stubborn). I was extremely comfortable with 3.5, knew most of the ins and outs, and now everything is different. I know most people made the switch a while back, so I'm hoping for some help...

I'm trying to build a character for an upcoming campaign, but obviously things work a little different than I'm used to. I'm hoping to make a character who is extremely strong in social skills, able to talk his way out of almost anything...I'm leaning towards a bard (probably half-elf) as this seems the best choice for this type of character. My one fear is that being relatively unfamiliar with 4e, I'm going to seriously gimp his combat usefulness. Now I'm not saying I want a perfectly mix/max uber build or anything...Far from it. I like to build my character mechanically to jive with the RP of the character. I just don't want a character who's going to have to run and hide in a corner whenever there's a fight. I'm hoping someone can make some recommendations / suggestions.

Another thing I'm looking at and still a little confused by is multiclassing. Obviously they've changed multiclassing quite a bit...I'm thinking I'll probably want to multiclass my bard, as I want him to be a guy with a big bag of tricks, but again...I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the new multiclass system. A frank and unconfusing explanation would be appreciated. Again, also open to suggestions and advice here.

Thanks.
#2
Centauri
Sep 28, 2012 13:00:22
Howdy. Long time D&D player but just now getting into 4e (what can I say? I'm stubborn). I was extremely comfortable with 3.5, knew most of the ins and outs, and now everything is different. I know most people made the switch a while back, so I'm hoping for some help...

Welcome aboard. The pilots, engineers, and many of the passengers have abandoned ship, but some of us are still here.

I just don't want a character who's going to have to run and hide in a corner whenever there's a fight. I'm hoping someone can make some recommendations / suggestions.

4e recognized that this was an issue in past editions and was designed to avoid it. Strength and Dexterity are no longer the primary ways to deal damage with weapons. It's easy to find a class that deals damage based on any of the ability scores, though I think only Battleminds directly key off of Constitution. All classes and almost every possibly class-race combination will do at least passably well in combat, though bards are still not intended as frontliners or massive damage dealers.

I believe all your Bard powers use Charisma for their attack and damage bonuses. Depending on the powers you take, you'll also get some bonuses from other ability scores, such as Intelligence.

Another thing I'm looking at and still a little confused by is multiclassing. Obviously they've changed multiclassing quite a bit...I'm thinking I'll probably want to multiclass my bard, as I want him to be a guy with a big bag of tricks, but again...I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the new multiclass system. A frank and unconfusing explanation would be appreciated. Again, also open to suggestions and advice here.

First of all, you multiclass by taking feats. Usually you can only take multiclass feats from a single class, but bards get around that restriction.

Furthermore, half-elves automatically "multiclass" by getting a bonus power from another class.

In 4e multclassing, you don't automatically get everything the other class gets, but you generally get something that is reminiscent or iconic of that class. If you're a multiclass fighter, you get an occassional bonus to attack rolls. If you're a multiclass rogue, you can occassionally sneak attack. Some MC feats provide an extra power from another class. Almost all MC feats also provide training in a skill, but if you're already trained in that skill, it won't help.

You can also multiclass in classes that don't even exist, such as the Bravo or Poisoner, or as an expert in a certain weapon.

Apart from the benefits of the MC feats, taking the feats makes a character eligible to take additional feats that swap out powers from their original class for powers from the other class, making them more like that other class. Obviously, there's a cost in the form of the multiclass feat (they really should have provided some additional bonus) but it's assumed that if you're using the feat you're getting a power that makes the expense of a feat worth it. Multiclass feats and the powers associated with them can be freely retrained upon gaining a new level.

If you take enough multiclass feats soon enough, you can then paragon multiclass, which means that you continue taking powers from the other class, instead of gaining the benefits of a paragon path, and you get an at-will power from the new class. However, this comes with the cost of losing the benefits normally associated with a paragon path, such as the action point rider.

However, even if your character took only a single multiclass feat for that class, it's eligible to take paragon paths and epic destinies that have that class as a prerequisite, so even without paragon multiclassing the character can become more and more like the other class.

Finally, keep in mind that attack powers from other classes might key off of ability scores that your character doesn't have a focus in, so if you don't have a high Wisdom, you might not find much benefit from powers that use Wisdom for their attack and damage bonus, etc. However, plenty of other classes use Charisma, and utility powers still work just fine.
#3
salla
Sep 28, 2012 13:04:04
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Finally, keep in mind that attack powers from other classes might key off of ability scores that your character doesn't have a focus in, so if you don't have a high Wisdom, you might not find much benefit from powers that use Wisdom for their attack and damage bonus, etc. However, plenty of other classes use Charisma, and utility powers still work just fine.

There's a feat that lets you change those Multiclass-acquired powers to Charisma for the attack roll (Combat Virtuoso, Arcane Power).
#4
KColette
Sep 28, 2012 13:06:21 Head on over to the Character Optimization forum. The Char-Op guys will help you hammer out a character that does what you want while remaining effective, as long as you make it clear what you want.

Remember, Char-Ops isn't a board only for min-maxing, but also for also for creating builds that work within whatever boundaries or goals you have for it.
#5
Centauri
Sep 28, 2012 13:07:06
There's a feat that lets you change those Multiclass-acquired powers to Charisma for the attack roll (Combat Virtuoso, Arcane Power).

Good to know. Frees up the Bard, especially the half-elf bard. Antisuperman, note that it's attack roll only, not damage, though a bard can get by without doing a lot of damage.

Of course, it's also another "feat tax" but one assumes a player would only take it to make use of really good powers.

#6
antisuperman
Sep 28, 2012 13:47:56 Thanks to everyone getting back to me so quick. The multiclass stuff definitely makes more sense to me now. I'm curious...You said there are multiclass feats not associated with a class (IE Bravo and Poisoner)? Where could I find these? Having just gotten access to all the new source books it's a little overwhelming trying to pin everything down.

Also thanks for the recommendation for the character optimization forum...I'll check it out.
#7
Centauri
Sep 28, 2012 13:57:47
Thanks to everyone getting back to me so quick. The multiclass stuff definitely makes more sense to me now. I'm curious...You said there are multiclass feats not associated with a class (IE Bravo and Poisoner)? Where could I find these? Having just gotten access to all the new source books it's a little overwhelming trying to pin everything down.

They were made available in Dragon Magazine articles. Some were released in the so-called "Dragon Magazine Annual." Other than that, you'd need a D&D Insider account to see them in the Compendium or Character Builder.

4E multiclassing got such a bad reaction that it was moved away from, except to put out MC feats for every class. I thought it was extremely powerful, and kept hoping they'd do more with it. For instance, one could have a "Samurai" multiclass. Instead, this was accomplished with Themes, which didn't really come out until Dark Sun was released. Oh, well.

#8
Sea-Envy
Sep 29, 2012 15:53:54 And the themes in Dark Sun feel different from latter themes.
You should try to find info on themes and pick one for your character.
Some of them can seem very much like multiclassing.
Some of them use talking in combat to inspire friends or distract enemies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 antisuperman Sep 28, 2012 12:29:32	Howdy. Long time D&D player but just now getting into 4e (what can I say? I'm stubborn). I was extremely comfortable with 3.5, knew most of the ins and outs, and now everything is different. I know most people made the switch a while back, so I'm hoping for some help... I'm trying to build a character for an upcoming campaign, but obviously things work a little different than I'm used to. I'm hoping to make a character who is extremely strong in social skills, able to talk his way out of almost anything...I'm leaning towards a bard (probably half-elf) as this seems the best choice for this type of character. My one fear is that being relatively unfamiliar with 4e, I'm going to seriously gimp his combat usefulness. Now I'm not saying I want a perfectly mix/max uber build or anything...Far from it. I like to build my character mechanically to jive with the RP of the character. I just don't want a character who's going to have to run and hide in a corner whenever there's a fight. I'm hoping someone can make some recommendations / suggestions. Another thing I'm looking at and still a little confused by is multiclassing. Obviously they've changed multiclassing quite a bit...I'm thinking I'll probably want to multiclass my bard, as I want him to be a guy with a big bag of tricks, but again...I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the new multiclass system. A frank and unconfusing explanation would be appreciated. Again, also open to suggestions and advice here. Thanks.
#2 Centauri Sep 28, 2012 13:00:22	Howdy. Long time D&D player but just now getting into 4e (what can I say? I'm stubborn). I was extremely comfortable with 3.5, knew most of the ins and outs, and now everything is different. I know most people made the switch a while back, so I'm hoping for some help... Welcome aboard. The pilots, engineers, and many of the passengers have abandoned ship, but some of us are still here. I just don't want a character who's going to have to run and hide in a corner whenever there's a fight. I'm hoping someone can make some recommendations / suggestions. 4e recognized that this was an issue in past editions and was designed to avoid it. Strength and Dexterity are no longer the primary ways to deal damage with weapons. It's easy to find a class that deals damage based on any of the ability scores, though I think only Battleminds directly key off of Constitution. All classes and almost every possibly class-race combination will do at least passably well in combat, though bards are still not intended as frontliners or massive damage dealers. I believe all your Bard powers use Charisma for their attack and damage bonuses. Depending on the powers you take, you'll also get some bonuses from other ability scores, such as Intelligence. Another thing I'm looking at and still a little confused by is multiclassing. Obviously they've changed multiclassing quite a bit...I'm thinking I'll probably want to multiclass my bard, as I want him to be a guy with a big bag of tricks, but again...I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the new multiclass system. A frank and unconfusing explanation would be appreciated. Again, also open to suggestions and advice here. First of all, you multiclass by taking feats. Usually you can only take multiclass feats from a single class, but bards get around that restriction. Furthermore, half-elves automatically "multiclass" by getting a bonus power from another class. In 4e multclassing, you don't automatically get everything the other class gets, but you generally get something that is reminiscent or iconic of that class. If you're a multiclass fighter, you get an occassional bonus to attack rolls. If you're a multiclass rogue, you can occassionally sneak attack. Some MC feats provide an extra power from another class. Almost all MC feats also provide training in a skill, but if you're already trained in that skill, it won't help. You can also multiclass in classes that don't even exist, such as the Bravo or Poisoner, or as an expert in a certain weapon. Apart from the benefits of the MC feats, taking the feats makes a character eligible to take additional feats that swap out powers from their original class for powers from the other class, making them more like that other class. Obviously, there's a cost in the form of the multiclass feat (they really should have provided some additional bonus) but it's assumed that if you're using the feat you're getting a power that makes the expense of a feat worth it. Multiclass feats and the powers associated with them can be freely retrained upon gaining a new level. If you take enough multiclass feats soon enough, you can then paragon multiclass, which means that you continue taking powers from the other class, instead of gaining the benefits of a paragon path, and you get an at-will power from the new class. However, this comes with the cost of losing the benefits normally associated with a paragon path, such as the action point rider. However, even if your character took only a single multiclass feat for that class, it's eligible to take paragon paths and epic destinies that have that class as a prerequisite, so even without paragon multiclassing the character can become more and more like the other class. Finally, keep in mind that attack powers from other classes might key off of ability scores that your character doesn't have a focus in, so if you don't have a high Wisdom, you might not find much benefit from powers that use Wisdom for their attack and damage bonus, etc. However, plenty of other classes use Charisma, and utility powers still work just fine.
#3 salla Sep 28, 2012 13:04:04	..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Finally, keep in mind that attack powers from other classes might key off of ability scores that your character doesn't have a focus in, so if you don't have a high Wisdom, you might not find much benefit from powers that use Wisdom for their attack and damage bonus, etc. However, plenty of other classes use Charisma, and utility powers still work just fine. There's a feat that lets you change those Multiclass-acquired powers to Charisma for the attack roll (Combat Virtuoso, Arcane Power).
#4 KColette Sep 28, 2012 13:06:21	Head on over to the Character Optimization forum. The Char-Op guys will help you hammer out a character that does what you want while remaining effective, as long as you make it clear what you want. Remember, Char-Ops isn't a board only for min-maxing, but also for also for creating builds that work within whatever boundaries or goals you have for it.
#5 Centauri Sep 28, 2012 13:07:06	There's a feat that lets you change those Multiclass-acquired powers to Charisma for the attack roll (Combat Virtuoso, Arcane Power). Good to know. Frees up the Bard, especially the half-elf bard. Antisuperman, note that it's attack roll only, not damage, though a bard can get by without doing a lot of damage. Of course, it's also another "feat tax" but one assumes a player would only take it to make use of really good powers.
#6 antisuperman Sep 28, 2012 13:47:56	Thanks to everyone getting back to me so quick. The multiclass stuff definitely makes more sense to me now. I'm curious...You said there are multiclass feats not associated with a class (IE Bravo and Poisoner)? Where could I find these? Having just gotten access to all the new source books it's a little overwhelming trying to pin everything down. Also thanks for the recommendation for the character optimization forum...I'll check it out.
#7 Centauri Sep 28, 2012 13:57:47	Thanks to everyone getting back to me so quick. The multiclass stuff definitely makes more sense to me now. I'm curious...You said there are multiclass feats not associated with a class (IE Bravo and Poisoner)? Where could I find these? Having just gotten access to all the new source books it's a little overwhelming trying to pin everything down. They were made available in Dragon Magazine articles. Some were released in the so-called "Dragon Magazine Annual." Other than that, you'd need a D&D Insider account to see them in the Compendium or Character Builder. 4E multiclassing got such a bad reaction that it was moved away from, except to put out MC feats for every class. I thought it was extremely powerful, and kept hoping they'd do more with it. For instance, one could have a "Samurai" multiclass. Instead, this was accomplished with Themes, which didn't really come out until Dark Sun was released. Oh, well.
#8 Sea-Envy Sep 29, 2012 15:53:54	And the themes in Dark Sun feel different from latter themes. You should try to find info on themes and pick one for your character. Some of them can seem very much like multiclassing. Some of them use talking in combat to inspire friends or distract enemies.