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Need suggestions post-epic (3.5)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rass_frostwhisper
Sep 04, 2008 3:40:42 Alright, so... here's the deal. I'm currently playing an Incubus*12/Marshal 2/Fiend of Possession 4. (* Incubus- 'male' Succubus, but since they are freely interchangeable as the same creature, it's just a personal preference)

I planned to round out with FoP 6 the next two levels. Here's my snag- the campaign may or may not be going into epic play, 21+. I didn't plan for anything past 20. Where can I go from here? Currently my character fulfills the roles of face/information gatherer, somewhere in-between main/side meat-shield, and scout. Looking for things that will work well off of the high charisma synergy I've currently got going. I'm fairly sure it's too late to get any pure caster levels, waaay too far behind to catch up there. (Though I may be able to possess a full-strength caster, but that's probably dm fiat territory, and all-together an entirely different can of worms.) Was looking at the paladin, and it's variants, but Chaotic Neutral didn't lend itself to any of them. Hopefully there's something I over-looked that can be used, and I didn't pigeon-hole myself to be unusable in epic territory.

Also also, I hadn't considered this before, but the CO boards brought something up that I hadn't pondered before- having a vassal to inhabit for the brunt of combat. Their FoP in particular used a Nimblewright from MM2, which was alright, but curious if perhaps there could be anything to work with in the flavor of an effigy. Any thoughts from anyone?

Any and all help would be appreciated. If any further information is required, please speak up.
#2
Armisael
Sep 04, 2008 7:07:58 Become a diplomonkey. That way, you'll remain useful against any intelligent enemy.
#3
jasonorlandohawk
Sep 04, 2008 11:02:14 First and foremost, talk to your DM and find out how far this game may progress. Your choices will probably be quite different if you're progressing to level 22 than if you're progressing to level 40. For example, supplementary casting works well if you have a lot of levels to work with, but it becomes a waste of time if the game won't stretch that far.

That being said, one of my first suggestions is this...

Outsider HD & Templates.

Outsider HD

The Monster Manual notes that a Succubus can advance as far as 12 HD. Outsider HD are some of the most amazing monster levels in 3.5 D&D (second only to Dragons, IMO). They come with BAB/HD progression, all good saves, and 8 + Int. mod skill points/level. All of this will help offset the ECL + 6 that you've been dealing with for several levels.

That alone probably makes it worthwhile to take Outsider HD, but you may also be able to talk your DM into expanding the list of spell-like abilities you can access as the "class features" for those HD. It's not assured, but if you're headed to Epic Play, I don't the DM would object too strongly.

Templates

Another great way to eat up extra levels is Templates. Find a Template that appeals to you, and find a way to acquire it in game. Part of the problem will be finding a template that an outsider can select (I was going to recommend Monster of Legend... but it doesn't work), but a good Template can expand your abilities, and many offer stat bumps that can skyrocket your Charisma even higher.

Currently, the only one I can think of would be the Multi-Headed Template from Savage Species...

Still, you might be able to find something that suits your purposes.

Final Thoughts

Take a look at monstrous feats, such as Ability Focus, Improved Natural Armor, and the feats from the demons/devils supplements. Those should help you focus your character very neatly.

If you really have your heart set on 'class levels,' then ask your DM if your Charm Monster ability can serve as a replacement for the Charm Person prerequisite on the Mindbender PrC from Complete Arcane. Take a few levels in Sorcerer or Enchanter, then have fun sending your minions to do your bidding.
#4
CCS
Sep 04, 2008 13:24:00 Here's a silly question I bet you've put no thought into....

What type of advancement makes logical sense within the story your playing in?
Yes, I know the rules allow you to take levels of whatever. But this isn't a rules based question I'm asking.

If you can't answer this, or have a hard time doing so, then you don't actually have a character - just a page of stats/powers/etc.
#5
rass_frostwhisper
Sep 04, 2008 16:49:43 With the Marshal Aura to add Charisma modifier to Charisma based skill checks and items, my diplomacy is a 62. I've been adding a point to it as often as possible, but looking at the PHB, I cannot fail a diplomacy check, even taking into account that we do a 1 on a d20 = -10 to the check. That's still 52, which is 2 above the DC. If the case of a retry is allowed, I then can't fail the DC 50 check to make a helpful person fanatical.

Jason: That is something I hadn't considered, but seems highly appealing in all actuality. You note that Dragon is your preferred- would I be able to advance dragon HD with the half-dragon template? (Wild magic fluctuation of incredible strength caused this little mutation).

CCS: Epic Fiend of Possession. This however does not exist. Hence me asking for help.

I fill four roles in the party at any given time. Face, Shield, Scout, and 'dominator'. Spells are not really my cup of tea with this character, so becoming a spell-caster is not highly suiting.

Note: DM has stated that advancement is open for an indefinite amount of time, as represented by our ECL 32 (minimum) BBEG
#6
jasonorlandohawk
Sep 05, 2008 16:48:34 Well, I doubt you could actually take Dragon HD. Since the Half-Dragon Template doesn't have an "Advancement" section, there are no guidelines for determining how many levels you could take, or what powers you could acquire. Still, if your DM is open to the suggestion... d12 HD & all good saves are not to be scoffed at...

Additionally, you were originally an "outsider," and though your type changed to "dragon," you are probably still considered an "outsider." This is a bit of obscure-rules lawyering, but according to Savage Species, "outsider" is a higher trait than "dragon," so when the two types would apply, "outsider" is the more important qualifier. In other words, despite your scales and wings, you aren't from this plane, so you can't really advance by the same scale as creatures native to this plane.

As such, you're probably safer to utilize the Outsider Advancement rules.

I did manage to pull out my Epic Level Handbook recently...

If you're still looking for a PrC, the Epic Infiltrator (find the 3.5 update) might be a good suggestion, although I'd still recommend taking the Outsider HD first.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rass_frostwhisper Sep 04, 2008 3:40:42	Alright, so... here's the deal. I'm currently playing an Incubus12/Marshal 2/Fiend of Possession 4. ( Incubus- 'male' Succubus, but since they are freely interchangeable as the same creature, it's just a personal preference) I planned to round out with FoP 6 the next two levels. Here's my snag- the campaign may or may not be going into epic play, 21+. I didn't plan for anything past 20. Where can I go from here? Currently my character fulfills the roles of face/information gatherer, somewhere in-between main/side meat-shield, and scout. Looking for things that will work well off of the high charisma synergy I've currently got going. I'm fairly sure it's too late to get any pure caster levels, waaay too far behind to catch up there. (Though I may be able to possess a full-strength caster, but that's probably dm fiat territory, and all-together an entirely different can of worms.) Was looking at the paladin, and it's variants, but Chaotic Neutral didn't lend itself to any of them. Hopefully there's something I over-looked that can be used, and I didn't pigeon-hole myself to be unusable in epic territory. Also also, I hadn't considered this before, but the CO boards brought something up that I hadn't pondered before- having a vassal to inhabit for the brunt of combat. Their FoP in particular used a Nimblewright from MM2, which was alright, but curious if perhaps there could be anything to work with in the flavor of an effigy. Any thoughts from anyone? Any and all help would be appreciated. If any further information is required, please speak up.
#2 Armisael Sep 04, 2008 7:07:58	Become a diplomonkey. That way, you'll remain useful against any intelligent enemy.
#3 jasonorlandohawk Sep 04, 2008 11:02:14	First and foremost, talk to your DM and find out how far this game may progress. Your choices will probably be quite different if you're progressing to level 22 than if you're progressing to level 40. For example, supplementary casting works well if you have a lot of levels to work with, but it becomes a waste of time if the game won't stretch that far. That being said, one of my first suggestions is this... Outsider HD & Templates. Outsider HD The Monster Manual notes that a Succubus can advance as far as 12 HD. Outsider HD are some of the most amazing monster levels in 3.5 D&D (second only to Dragons, IMO). They come with BAB/HD progression, all good saves, and 8 + Int. mod skill points/level. All of this will help offset the ECL + 6 that you've been dealing with for several levels. That alone probably makes it worthwhile to take Outsider HD, but you may also be able to talk your DM into expanding the list of spell-like abilities you can access as the "class features" for those HD. It's not assured, but if you're headed to Epic Play, I don't the DM would object too strongly. Templates Another great way to eat up extra levels is Templates. Find a Template that appeals to you, and find a way to acquire it in game. Part of the problem will be finding a template that an outsider can select (I was going to recommend Monster of Legend... but it doesn't work), but a good Template can expand your abilities, and many offer stat bumps that can skyrocket your Charisma even higher. Currently, the only one I can think of would be the Multi-Headed Template from Savage Species... Still, you might be able to find something that suits your purposes. Final Thoughts Take a look at monstrous feats, such as Ability Focus, Improved Natural Armor, and the feats from the demons/devils supplements. Those should help you focus your character very neatly. If you really have your heart set on 'class levels,' then ask your DM if your Charm Monster ability can serve as a replacement for the Charm Person prerequisite on the Mindbender PrC from Complete Arcane. Take a few levels in Sorcerer or Enchanter, then have fun sending your minions to do your bidding.
#4 CCS Sep 04, 2008 13:24:00	Here's a silly question I bet you've put no thought into.... What type of advancement makes logical sense within the story your playing in? Yes, I know the rules allow you to take levels of whatever. But this isn't a rules based question I'm asking. If you can't answer this, or have a hard time doing so, then you don't actually have a character - just a page of stats/powers/etc.
#5 rass_frostwhisper Sep 04, 2008 16:49:43	With the Marshal Aura to add Charisma modifier to Charisma based skill checks and items, my diplomacy is a 62. I've been adding a point to it as often as possible, but looking at the PHB, I cannot fail a diplomacy check, even taking into account that we do a 1 on a d20 = -10 to the check. That's still 52, which is 2 above the DC. If the case of a retry is allowed, I then can't fail the DC 50 check to make a helpful person fanatical. Jason: That is something I hadn't considered, but seems highly appealing in all actuality. You note that Dragon is your preferred- would I be able to advance dragon HD with the half-dragon template? (Wild magic fluctuation of incredible strength caused this little mutation). CCS: Epic Fiend of Possession. This however does not exist. Hence me asking for help. I fill four roles in the party at any given time. Face, Shield, Scout, and 'dominator'. Spells are not really my cup of tea with this character, so becoming a spell-caster is not highly suiting. Note: DM has stated that advancement is open for an indefinite amount of time, as represented by our ECL 32 (minimum) BBEG
#6 jasonorlandohawk Sep 05, 2008 16:48:34	Well, I doubt you could actually take Dragon HD. Since the Half-Dragon Template doesn't have an "Advancement" section, there are no guidelines for determining how many levels you could take, or what powers you could acquire. Still, if your DM is open to the suggestion... d12 HD & all good saves are not to be scoffed at... Additionally, you were originally an "outsider," and though your type changed to "dragon," you are probably still considered an "outsider." This is a bit of obscure-rules lawyering, but according to Savage Species, "outsider" is a higher trait than "dragon," so when the two types would apply, "outsider" is the more important qualifier. In other words, despite your scales and wings, you aren't from this plane, so you can't really advance by the same scale as creatures native to this plane. As such, you're probably safer to utilize the Outsider Advancement rules. I did manage to pull out my Epic Level Handbook recently... If you're still looking for a PrC, the Epic Infiltrator (find the 3.5 update) might be a good suggestion, although I'd still recommend taking the Outsider HD first.