Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Davrix Aug 09, 2012 2:02:35	Maybe I’m being to nitpicky So once again I come here and ask the wise people of other games for their thoughts and views on this matter.  I’ll try not to make his long. Party NPC that’s been with us that we don’t really trust but need.  It’s a partnership of mutual benefit right now that’s all.  Basic gist is we get to a huge ancient magical gate that we have no idea how to operate but this NPC might be able to help us figure it out.  We get ambushed in the room and  sacked hard by several monsters.   Our barbarian got hit blooded in the first turn along with our monk.  I came up to apply some tankage. ( I rolled like crap on my int)  And our cleric was moving up to heal the barb and buff us next round.  We already had 5 creatures around the 4 of us.  One of them story related to our monk and he was totally focused on him.  I had 3 really heavy hitters on me then after a guardians counter to get the barbarian out of the way.  He was using second wind and our cleric was trying to give us some breathing room with a buff and he had his hands full with a lurker on his ass. There were 3 more guys sitting in the back that hadn’t moved at first.  On the 2nd round two of them blitzed by us and headed right for our NPC at the control panel to the gate.  I’m going **** got to save her but figured she could make it a one or two rounds with only 2 on her.  The third flanked the cleric, so yea total of 6 monsters with us right now none of them minions. Long story short by the end of the 3rd round she was already down and I’m going crap what the hell. (I might add that she was dead dead but we didn’t know this till the 5th round when our cleric was able to get there and try to heal.  They did so much dmg that they took her to neg bloody hp outright. So let me summarize this. We were all lv 4 (the Dm believes in keeping the NPC at party lv) Round 1 = party gets hit hard and surrounded Round 2 = 2 creatures blitz by us and flank the npc and one missed his attack. Round 3 = she was dead outright by going – bloodied. No way to operate the machine at this point and let’s just say me and the party were NOT HAPPY. A key factor to all of this was the NPC was at less than half health.  We had triggered a trap and he forgot to heal her from it or so he says.  Yet the rest of the party stopped and took a short rest to use healing surges  and she was there with us, so I call BS on this honestly for starters.  The second is he claims we shouldn’t let enemies outflank us.  And I argue (and why I gave the brief description above) Of how the hell we were supposed to prevent her from getting outflanked when they blitzed by us in one round and had her dead on the 3rd round.  She has a character sheet btw he does them for npcs with party based states for his bigger  more impotent npcs that interact often with the party when we have them around.  She has defenses HP and healing surges.  She never moved all fight from the station. (According to him she was studying the controls for the first 2 rounds and he forgot to take her action on her third turn when he might of used a 2nd wind before they attacked) She died not saying a word for help IC, never tried to move or heal herself and yet we are told it’s our fault for letting her get hit the way she did.  I really cry foul in this and feel more like our DM slapped us more than anything else. Am I being to prickly by this or should I feel cheated honestly?  Is it our fault she died because we didn’t throw ourselves in front of her or all take OA the moment she was in danger to rush to her aid?
#2 mellored Aug 09, 2012 8:32:55	I see no reason to feel cheated.
#3 CorranHornIsAwesome Aug 09, 2012 8:51:26	Maybe I’m being to nitpicky So once again I come here and ask the wise people of other games for their thoughts and views on this matter.  I’ll try not to make his long. Party NPC that’s been with us that we don’t really trust but need.  It’s a partnership of mutual benefit right now that’s all.  Basic gist is we get to a huge ancient magical gate that we have no idea how to operate but this NPC might be able to help us figure it out.  We get ambushed in the room and  sacked hard by several monsters.   Our barbarian got hit blooded in the first turn along with our monk.  I came up to apply some tankage. ( I rolled like crap on my int)  And our cleric was moving up to heal the barb and buff us next round.  We already had 5 creatures around the 4 of us.  One of them story related to our monk and he was totally focused on him.  I had 3 really heavy hitters on me then after a guardians counter to get the barbarian out of the way.  He was using second wind and our cleric was trying to give us some breathing room with a buff and he had his hands full with a lurker on his ass. There were 3 more guys sitting in the back that hadn’t moved at first.  On the 2nd round two of them blitzed by us and headed right for our NPC at the control panel to the gate.  I’m going **** got to save her but figured she could make it a one or two rounds with only 2 on her.  The third flanked the cleric, so yea total of 6 monsters with us right now none of them minions. Long story short by the end of the 3rd round she was already down and I’m going crap what the hell. (I might add that she was dead dead but we didn’t know this till the 5th round when our cleric was able to get there and try to heal.  They did so much dmg that they took her to neg bloody hp outright. So let me summarize this. We were all lv 4 (the Dm believes in keeping the NPC at party lv) Round 1 = party gets hit hard and surrounded Round 2 = 2 creatures blitz by us and flank the npc and one missed his attack. Round 3 = she was dead outright by going – bloodied. No way to operate the machine at this point and let’s just say me and the party were NOT HAPPY. A key factor to all of this was the NPC was at less than half health.  We had triggered a trap and he forgot to heal her from it or so he says.  Yet the rest of the party stopped and took a short rest to use healing surges  and she was there with us, so I call BS on this honestly for starters.  The second is he claims we shouldn’t let enemies outflank us.  And I argue (and why I gave the brief description above) Of how the hell we were supposed to prevent her from getting outflanked when they blitzed by us in one round and had her dead on the 3rd round.  She has a character sheet btw he does them for npcs with party based states for his bigger  more impotent npcs that interact often with the party when we have them around.  She has defenses HP and healing surges.  She never moved all fight from the station. (According to him she was studying the controls for the first 2 rounds and he forgot to take her action on her third turn when he might of used a 2nd wind before they attacked) She died not saying a word for help IC, never tried to move or heal herself and yet we are told it’s our fault for letting her get hit the way she did.  I really cry foul in this and feel more like our DM slapped us more than anything else. Am I being to prickly by this or should I feel cheated honestly?  Is it our fault she died because we didn’t throw ourselves in front of her or all take OA the moment she was in danger to rush to her aid? First of all, it's not DM vs Players, you don't get cheated. If the DM wanted to kill her that bad, he could just roll a d6 and claim she fell off somewhere. You should be trying to figure out who ele can help you open the gate now.
#4 TheeEnthusiast Aug 09, 2012 10:59:18	I agree with the others. Despite not trusting the NPC, it seems protecting her was definitely in the mindset of the party beforehand, so perhaps the DM felt since she was vulnerable the monsters took their chance? I don't see it being the end of the world, now you're simply tasked with finding another way to open the magic gate. I do this with NPC's all the time, perhaps not always in an encounter setting, but say my party has to go into a cave to clear out some monsters, meanwhile an important npc mentions about something suspicious in the woods to the east. Long story short, the party decides not to bother with that at that moment, and go into the gave. next session they learned that important npc went into the woods alone and went missing for good. The party wasn't happy about it but they knew their choices were responsible.
#5 DoctorBadWolf Aug 09, 2012 11:26:08	If the DM normally avoids fudging things, then you absolutely should call him on this. Don't be rude about it, just be like "come on, man. You know she should have been at full health from spending surges in that short rest. If you wanted to kill her for the story, just do that, don't pretend she died from a terminal case of clerical error." Seriously, the DM has to answer to the players just as much as they have to abide by the DM's rulings, no matter what DM philosophy your group practices.
#6 salla Aug 09, 2012 15:07:35	NPCs live or die by the needs of the plot, no matter what their stats are.  If NPC Bob the Farmer throws his pitchfork and Growf The Ancient Red Dragon, and the DM wants Growf to die, he dies.
#7 Davrix Aug 09, 2012 15:24:52	First of all, it's not DM vs Players, you don't get cheated. If the DM wanted to kill her that bad, he could justy roll a d6 and claim she fell off somewhere. You should be trying to figure out who ele can help you open the gate now. This was my biggest issue.  The gate was supposed to be a impossible puzzle to be solved without the npc but he hadn’t really given that impression to much at the table.  He let the table sit there for over 2 hours banging our heads on it.  Our cleric rolled 3 nat 20's (over several attempts) On his arcane / history and int check's.  (In game time) we spent nearly a day there with no luck.  Finally after 2 and a half hours when he realized we wern’t moving on this and a 4th nat 20 by our barbarian on his history check he finally let us half ass open the thing up.  (I learned later he wanted us to be forced down into a cave network that led out of the temple we were in.  And I want to point out this is a Dm that has done nothing but tell me he wants to give us open choices and not railroad us down any path from the start of this campaign) I'll add one other bit of info.  We’re trying to save a city from a ritual that is on a timer.  I know our DM all too well and while I can understand him putting delays up in our way to eat time.  The gate was a way for us to shave a week’s travel off our timetable.  I can understand if the npc dies to something we did stupidly but this feeling of being cheated comes from not that she died but how she died.  There’s a big difference in my mind of the party does something stupid to screw up and not feeling like you had any chance to prevent the screw up. If the DM normally avoids fudging things, then you absolutely should call him on this. Don't be rude about it, just be like "come on, man. You know she should have been at full health from spending surges in that short rest. If you wanted to kill her for the story, just do that, don't pretend she died from a terminal case of clerical error." Seriously, the DM has to answer to the players just as much as they have to abide by the DM's rulings, no matter what DM philosophy your group practices. He fudges dice rolls I know this for a fact.  He rolls like crap, he's admitted it as much and shows us.  I’ve never seen someone roll so many times and never hit a number over 6 most times.  He rolls low and he's told us more than once he's had to fudge hits to make fights at least interesting so that its not all just misses.   It's why I've cried out foul in all of this, She should of been full HP and she should of been able to use her second wind if nothing else.  Had she died I would not of said a word.  It was the lack of effort on his part to keep her alive  right at the gate that’s annoyed the hell out of me.  There have been billions of other ways he could of taken her out that would not of felt like she was yanked away because we were beating his time table.
#8 CorranHornIsAwesome Aug 09, 2012 19:31:40	First of all, it's not DM vs Players, you don't get cheated. If the DM wanted to kill her that bad, he could justy roll a d6 and claim she fell off somewhere. You should be trying to figure out who ele can help you open the gate now. This was my biggest issue.  The gate was supposed to be a impossible puzzle to be solved without the npc but he hadn’t really given that impression to much at the table.  He let the table sit there for over 2 hours banging our heads on it.  Our cleric rolled 3 nat 20's (over several attempts) On his arcane / history and int check's.  (In game time) we spent nearly a day there with no luck.  Finally after 2 and a half hours when he realized we wern’t moving on this and a 4th nat 20 by our barbarian on his history check he finally let us half ass open the thing up.  (I learned later he wanted us to be forced down into a cave network that led out of the temple we were in.  And I want to point out this is a Dm that has done nothing but tell me he wants to give us open choices and not railroad us down any path from the start of this campaign) I'll add one other bit of info.  We’re trying to save a city from a ritual that is on a timer.  I know our DM all too well and while I can understand him putting delays up in our way to eat time.  The gate was a way for us to shave a week’s travel off our timetable.  I can understand if the npc dies to something we did stupidly but this feeling of being cheated comes from not that she died but how she died.  There’s a big difference in my mind of the party does something stupid to screw up and not feeling like you had any chance to prevent the screw up.   Not to be an ass, but find another way to deal with the issue, or don't. You lose a timetable benefit. instead of wasting time trying to solve it now, roll with it and work fast.
#9 CURBSTOMP Aug 10, 2012 2:04:00	Well... an npc died... and you needed her... raise her from the dead or if 4.0 has anything like speak with dead use that to get your puzzle answer. Alternatively if the puzzle is too hard find another way around it.  (Like break through the wall next to the door or what have you)  But it sounds like you are in a railroad campaign, so either enjoy the ride, or find something else for your characters to do like joining the bad guys (that should throw your DM a curveball) or going on a quest of your own devising, like the quest to slay a red dragon and steal its hoard.  Remember, you CAN walk away from a frustrating adventure without neccessarily ending the campaign. But to answer your original question, no you were not cheated.  NPC's are DM's tools not yours, with the possible exception of cohorts/followers.
#10 salla Aug 10, 2012 2:53:38	..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">Party NPC that’s been with us that we don’t really trust but need. I think this may be the pivotal point right here.  Were you relying on the NPC, having her do things you just didn't want to do, maybe not trying to pick up on clues that the DM was dropping so you could get to the next plot point without her?  If so, he might have killed her off so you weren't using her as a crutch.
#11 Davrix Aug 11, 2012 0:42:58	I think people have missed the reason I’m ticked over this whole thing.  I'm not mad that the NPC died.  I'm annoyed by how she died.  She has a character sheet, she's been in a few fights with us (same lv as party), used powers and has a HP and def like any other person.  She wasn't at full HP like the rest of the party even though we all had just short rested before this, she never did anything to try and save herself, never 2nd winded, call out for help or moved on the battlefield.  That’s why I feel cheated.  She might as well have taken an arrow to the face at the start of the fight.  I agree npc's are a Dm's tool to use and discard as he or she sees fit but I would like to think that if she had stats and defs and power because she was a more important NPC that those should be accounted for rather than knowing oh I forgot to heal like everyone else on the sheet too bad for her and you guys.
#12 DoctorBadWolf Aug 11, 2012 2:14:42	Yeah, that sort of blatant fudging because the DM doesn't feel like adapting to what the players have accomplished is pretty immersion breaking, not to mention just annoying.
#13 CorranHornIsAwesome Aug 11, 2012 10:04:55	I think people have missed the reason I’m ticked over this whole thing.  I'm not mad that the NPC died.  I'm annoyed by how she died.  She has a character sheet, she's been in a few fights with us (same lv as party), used powers and has a HP and def like any other person.  She wasn't at full HP like the rest of the party even though we all had just short rested before this, she never did anything to try and save herself, never 2nd winded, call out for help or moved on the battlefield.  That’s why I feel cheated.  She might as well have taken an arrow to the face at the start of the fight.  I agree npc's are a Dm's tool to use and discard as he or she sees fit but I would like to think that if she had stats and defs and power because she was a more important NPC that those should be accounted for rather than knowing oh I forgot to heal like everyone else on the sheet too bad for her and you guys.    That's true, but the DM may have wanted to kill her for the plot and that's a helluva lot better then "Orcs raided your camp in the night, she's dead." There are certainly better ways to accomplish it though.
#14 Davrix Aug 12, 2012 2:00:52	That's true, but the DM may have wanted to kill her for the plot and that's a helluva lot better then "Orcs raided your camp in the night, she's dead." There are certainly better ways to accomplish it though.  Not to go into a big mess of detail but trust me on this after several conversations with him. Her death was not meant to be a part of the plot.  But rather she was supposed to be a rather central NPC once this first big section of the campaign was over.  (basically she was supposed to be one of those big info sources we could go to with a fast travel system with the gates) So yea he forgot to update her HP when we all took the short rest and wouldn’t put it back to full, he then claimed she was working on the gate the first 2 rounds of combat, though he didn't really say this to any of us at the time and when her third turn came he forgot to take it and during the 4th round he didn't feel like he should go back and use her 2nd wind so she wound up dead because of these factors.  That’s why I Really feel cheated in this whole scene.  This all comes from the fact he didn't feel like bending the rules as he saw them for his npc because he didn't want to seem like he was catering to his "special" Character.
#15 mastercliff Aug 12, 2012 12:10:43	You are still being too nitpicky.  She died.  Npcs die, it's their job.  It's going to make the game a whole lot more interesting without her in the game now.
#16 Baphogoat Aug 13, 2012 14:08:34	I sympathize with the OP here.  The DM put an NPC in the plot that he made clear was necessary to move the game forward and then non-chalantly killed her off, and only did so because he refused to correct errors that he had made - the NPC not taking a short rest with the rest of the party?  Not using a second wind when close to death?  and not to mention not even communicating with the party when she was that close to death. If the DM thought it was important for the party to bust ass to save the NPC he should have been more vocal about the situtation the NPS was in, making it more clear to the players that she was in danger of dying - If the players did not realalize the NPC was in that much danger how would they know they need to risk the OAs to try and save the NPC? I would not be happy with the DM here either, not because the NPC died but because it made the game very uninteresting and undid all the work the party did to get to this gate. it sounds like this DM has made this game a PC vs DM one in which he does not want the PCs to succeed and makes ridiculous decisions to stop the PCs from achieving the success they were expecting.  Why even let the characters make a skill check if rolling even a nat 20 is not going to have any effect, not to mention 4 nat 20s?  I call BS on the DM and the OP should feel angered at the DM and rightly so.
#17 salla Aug 13, 2012 14:11:54	I sympathize with the OP here.  The DM put an NPC in the plot that he made clear was necessary to move the game forward To me, this is where the mistake was made.  The game should never have hinged solely on the NPC.  He needed a backup plan.
#18 Baphogoat Aug 13, 2012 15:00:25	I sympathize with the OP here.  The DM put an NPC in the plot that he made clear was necessary to move the game forward To me, this is where the mistake was made.  The game should never have hinged solely on the NPC.  He needed a backup plan. And that is the DM's call, not the players'... Hence, the anger the OP feels.
#19 merb101 Aug 13, 2012 15:33:31	It sounds to me like this NPC fell more into the "Companion Character" slot than just an NPC. In which case I do understand the OP's frustration. If the players had been allowed to control her actions, she likely would still be alive. But the DM controlled her and basically had her stand still for two rounds so she could be killed. I would call foul on that. Also, the "forgot to heal her." In 4E the DM is specifically told to rule in favor of the players. I've had players at the table say "Crap, I forgot to mark that guy?" and I as the DM say "No problem, your guy wouldn't have forgotten something like that. Just put your mark on him now." To me capitalizing on the fact that she was wounded also points to the DM metagaming. Listen to some of the Penny Arcade D&D podcasts, and you'll hear the DM forgive minor mistakes. He still kills a character, but that was due to the player's actions, not the DM setting that character up to be killed.
#20 Baphogoat Aug 13, 2012 16:03:38	It sounds to me like this NPC fell more into the "Companion Character" slot than just an NPC. In which case I do understand the OP's frustration. If the players had been allowed to control her actions, she likely would still be alive. But the DM controlled her and basically had her stand still for two rounds so she could be killed. I would call foul on that. Also, the "forgot to heal her." In 4E the DM is specifically told to rule in favor of the players. I've had players at the table say "Crap, I forgot to mark that guy?" and I as the DM say "No problem, your guy wouldn't have forgotten something like that. Just put your mark on him now." To me capitalizing on the fact that she was wounded also points to the DM metagaming. Listen to some of the Penny Arcade D&D podcasts, and you'll hear the DM forgive minor mistakes. He still kills a character, but that was due to the player's actions, not the DM setting that character up to be killed. +1
#21 Pheralan_Pathfinder Aug 13, 2012 23:50:36	The DM messed up.  When confronted, the DM did not correct the mistake.  That is very frustrating for players. LET IT GO! Hopefully this does not become a habit.  I also understand the railroad campaign versus the open campaign.  Open campaigns are difficult to manage, and for inexperienced DMs and those with certain personality types, it can be almost impossible.  IMO this is not the sword to fall on.  Let this one go, and try to be more proactive in having the players bring plot story ideas to the DM for the next story arc, after this part of the campaign has ended.  I suspect this DM prepares many encounters far in advance, and with considerable detail.  That makes for great individual game sessions, but it severely limits player options.  This also tends to happen with modules, where certain parts of the story must occur for the rest of the module to progress.
#22 Davrix Aug 14, 2012 2:37:32	The plan is to let it go at this point.  I said my peace to him and I've not really harped on it to much unless he's brought the subject back up to me first asking questions. I was mainly venting and seeing what others thought if I was being too anal or not on the matter mainly.  It can be really frustrating to feel like you don’t have a choice in the matter. Also someone mentioned in one of the posts that the DMG had a written part about ruling for the players when it came to missed actions.  Can anyone tell me the page or sections it’s under.  I would like to read that part for myself for future reference material.
#23 svendj Aug 15, 2012 2:31:31	Your DM made a mistake. As a result, an NPC died. Unfortunate, but it's not like you TPK'd or anything. Now either collectively decide to rewind the clock or accept it and continue your story from here. Treat it as a learning experience for both you and your DM. Sh*t happens, mistakes are made, now try to prevent them in the future.