I was answering a post in another thread just now, and it hit me that I have -never- played a character past 9th level. Even that happened only one time, when 2nd edition was the thing. Other then that I think I have gotten maybe 1 or 2 characters to level 6 or so.
Our gaming group tends to fluctuate a bit, but we have been playing together for going on 15 years now really. Since high school. It always seems that we are making new characters, starting over at level 1, and getting to level 5 or so before the adventure is over.
Case in point, we are now nearing the end of our current adventure. We just hit level 5. We are going to fight a black dragon (and probably die) and that will be the end of this adventure. Now I know we can just keep playing another adventure with the same guys if they live. But by chance I am taking over as DM now, after our current DM has done so for the past 5 years at least. Needless to say a pretty monumental change.
I have decided to "spare no expense" as the old man from Jurassic Park would say. I have bought every 4th edition book there is. I am a subscriber to this site, have downloaded map tools, even hand painted the world map on an actual to goodness canvas painting and framed it to hang on the wall in my now rearranged living room that is being set up specifically to play this campaign. Lighting, sound effects, music, catering, projectors, basically everything you could think of. I have been working on the campaign for over six months now. The goal is to go from level 1 to level 30. One character, one campaign. I want this to be the campaign that all others will be compared to until the day we die. Money, Time, Enthusiasm, there is no obstacle too daunting.
The purpose of telling you all of this is two fold. First, Having never played a character past 9th level (remember reading that all the way back up there?) I have no idea what we are in for. So, as I enter into writing that part of the campaign, what can you Epic level nerds tell me about what its like up there? is slogging through fire giants the same as kobolds? cuz damn i've killed alot of kobolds. We were always afraid of high levels before because of how unbalanced spell casters got at higher levels. it all seemed overwhelming.
Second, What do you guys think is "the sweet spot" of levels? I would like the story to be most exciting about level 15-20. The Epic tier will mostly be after the main story arc is over, and the party will be rampaging around the planes at that point just for lolz.
So any advice to help make this an epic campaign and maybe relate about why you do or don't play at lower or higher levels. I am curious if I am alone in always being a lowbie.
So, as I enter into writing that part of the campaign, what can you Epic level nerds tell me about what its like up there? is slogging through fire giants the same as kobolds?
One of the beautiful things I have found in 4e is that the answer is finally yes. Fighting 4e fire giants is like fighting 4e kobolds.
Sure, there are more powers and options. But the rules don't change midstream. And if you've played the characters through from low levels, you get to learn the curve as it increases, so there isn't a "deep end" requirement.
One of the beautiful things I have found in 4e is that the answer is finally yes. Fighting 4e fire giants is like fighting 4e kobolds.
Sure, there are more powers and options. But the rules don't change midstream. And if you've played the characters through from low levels, you get to learn the curve as it increases, so there isn't a "deep end" requirement.
The only thing that concerns me as my party is closing in on the paragon tier is the damage to hit point ratio. Curious to see how "drawn out" some of the fights may get. Other then that (which has not been a huge issue yet), I'm really liking the flow of the game and like Seeker said, the rules don't change midstream. It's the same game, same rules, same concepts you've been building on since 1st level. And all the characters remain viable. No super-wizards or mega druids that overshadow the lowly fighter (indeed, the fighter remains a force to be reckoned with!).
But I like low leveled play so that doesn't bug me much.
From the monsters I've looked at and the 4e oneshots we've run, no the game doesn't break at higher levels, the game remains fundamentally the same.
I've only played above 10th level as one shots really, never anything ongoing.
But I like low leveled play so that doesn't bug me much.
From the monsters I've looked at and the 4e oneshots we've run, no the game doesn't break at higher levels, the game remains fundamentally the same.
The decisionmaking is much more intense at higher levels.
I think THIS is the only element of similarity with the MMO structure. Low level combat can be quite complex and entertaining, but with so few options the style is closer to "tank and spank".
Go up in levels and things become sustantially more intricated. You don't really down Orcus without a battleplan, and the entire gameplay feels more complete.
As for in previous editions? We never had any problems in my groups.
But then we also weren't solely concerned with breaking the system AND we had good DMs who knew how to both A) handle stuff, B) just say NO as needed.
I'm led to believe that we're in the minority....
Sorry, I can't really tell you how high end 4e plays. Yet.
As for in previous editions? We never had any problems in my groups.
But then we also weren't solely concerned with breaking the system AND we had good DMs who knew how to both A) handle stuff, B) just say NO as needed.
I'm led to believe that we're in the minority....
Yes...
Yes I'd say you are.
For the OP:
One of the great joys of 4e is that it pretty much balances itself out. Yes, you'd have problems with the number and combo of abilities out there, but as long as you put limits on things (like limited # of action points spent in one turn, using the Blade Cascade errata etc etc) its very hard to "break" the system. A simple thing like "No matter how many action points you have, you can only spend 3 in a turn." stops a lot of the game breaking "Infinite damage" routines you can find on the optimization forums.
As for what happens at high level... you get to have a crap-ton of more options, status effects start rearing their heads and then become the "norm" of higher level play, and if you can't save, you're in trouble once you fight some of the more "control"
oriented baddies in the 1st MM. Your characters will feel much more powerful
, but at the same time, they'll be facing things that have advanced in power just as much as they have 
, and encounters that use the proper xp budget (explained in the DMG) and are of comparable level will still be wonderful.Just make sure all your pc's are on an even playing field (ie, no one with straight 20's
and no one with straight 10's 
). Then, after they have an extensive background, incorporate those backgrounds into your storyline. Doing that usually helps players keep their characters around well after you'd normally drop them. I was in a group that re-made characters just about every week for a year or so, then did somthing similar to what you've just done only with GURPS instead. They still talk about going back to the "Belladonna" game from time to time. If done right, doing a full epic ark will be wonderful, and honestly, I wish I could join you.
What playing at the epic level gives you, especially as the DM, is a much larger playing field for your imagination. Simple analogy: levels are like crayons. The more levels you got, the more colors you can play with. How well you paint? It's up to you and the players.
If you're going for a solid 1-30 campaign, I'd bang out the major players, plot arcs, themes, and conflicts first. I'd highly recommend using a campaign wiki, something like Obsidian Portal - or better yet, something like MonkeyPirate TiddlyWiki (MPTW). I've used both, and I just switched over to MPTW. You can check out my < 2 weeks progress in the link in my sig.
Good luck!
Anyhow, in 4e, I haven't been past 7th level yet, but I am starting a summer campaign with my two oldest sons, we're going to play 3 nights a week all summer starting in July. We're going to use the dungeon delve books and I'll tie them all together using an ongoing theme (which I wont say here yet because my oldest son reads these), but the idea is we'll be leveling up after each nightly session (play delve #1 at level 1, then up to level 2 and continue, etc).
I like you idea of really getting ready for your campaign and hope it goes well, it sounds like you are planning it out nicely. I'm doing the same, but more in 'fast forward' on how you are doing it.
D.