Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fallmore Nov 12, 2009 13:25:45	My play group is about to start a 4th edition campain that picked up from a 3.5 one. Some of the players are expirenced and played for a long time, while others (like myself) have not much expirence prior to 4th edition.  The main thing I am concerned about is the lack of a leader in the party. the roster should look like this lv 10  Elf Ardent Paladin- focused on just doing dammage and murder. Does NOT have lay on hands lv 10 Half Elf Paladin/ Avenger-another character focused on doing dammage, using a surge engine lv 10 Minitar Barbarian-  need not say more lv 10 dragon born fighter-polearm who is basically a controler with his attacks lv 10 dragonborn (the player wants to re make his dragonshammon from 3.5, and i think it will end     upbeing a hybrid warlord/sorrcer, or multiclass) lv 10 Drow sorcer-wild magic. - just standard with +19 to dammage, thats all i can do My character was the drow in this, so it seems to be a primary thing of having dammage dealers. as the defenders dont have sheilds or anything focused on defending. I do belive the hybrid paladin does have lay on hands instead of oath.  As for the possible on the warloard,  if the character is made through hybrid that will give it a heal one per ecounter. Also i dont have much confidence of the player being present all the time nor in  his making good character skills. I also made a Cleric to maybe play instead of the Drow if it seems we really did need healers, naturally he was a lv 10 Kalashtar cleric focused on healing.  So my question is given these details do you think it is needed to have a healer in the party? or will it be fine without one. In our curent campaign we have a healer who isnt fouced on healing but he is a cleric, we have always had a healer and it seemed that we would have had some character deaths if not for it. Thoughts?
#2 RUMPLESTIX Nov 12, 2009 14:24:32	My play group is about to start a 4th edition campain that picked up from a 3.5 one. Some of the players are expirenced and played for a long time, while others (like myself) have not much expirence prior to 4th edition.  The main thing I am concerned about is the lack of a leader in the party. the roster should look like this lv 10  Elf Ardent Paladin- focused on just doing dammage and murder lv 10 Half Elf Paladin/ Invoker-another character focused on doing dammage lv 10 Minitar Barbarian-  need not say more lv 10 Warforged fighter (i do belive) lv 10 dragonborn (the player wants to re make his dragonshammon from 3.5, and i think it will end     upbeing a hybrid warlord/sorrcer, or multiclass) lv 10 Drow sorcer-wild magic. My character was the drow in this, so it seems to be a primary thing of having dammage dealers. as the defenders dont have sheilds or anything focused on defending. I do belive the hybrid paladin does have lay on hands instead of oath.  As for the possible on the warloard,  if the character is made through hybrid that will give it a heal one per ecounter. Also i dont have much confidence of the player being present all the time nor in  his making good character skills. I also made a Cleric to maybe play instead of the Drow if it seems we really did need healers, naturally he was a lv 10 Kalashtar cleric focused on healing.  So my question is given these details do you think it is needed to have a healer in the party? or will it be fine without one. In our curent campaign we have a healer who isnt fouced on healing but he is a cleric, we have always had a healer and it seemed that we would have had some character deaths if not for it. Thoughts? I think it can be made to work unless the DM just doesn't want it to work. But, I think you should look at what the leaders normally do: gives buffs to attacks, buffs to saves, give healing (allow to use surges in particular), and give extra saves and give save bonuses. So, can the party fill in for those powers? 1. A factor here might be whether or not he would choose to include availability of healing potions which would not count in the normal treasure parcels. Healing potions allow the trade of healing surges for a set amount of healing. Not a good trade, IMO, unless of course you need to use one in a combat and do not have a healer...There might be some items that will offer healing. It would be best to look for those or purchase them. What type of fighter is the warforged? Battlerager could really add to the extra hitpoints which could be real important without a leader. How high a con have the characters chosen? That will determine the number of surges and it might be advisable to fill up on hitpoints between encounters even if one has taken less than a surge in damage. You could burn through them that way.   2. Bonus attacks and buffs to attacks. That can be wroked on through proper character placement to gain combat advantage and choosing proper feats. Off the top of my head there is one that allows gained CA at range and one that grants combat advantage to the party if the character with the feat flanks another or something like that. I don't remember which are heroic and which are paragon. An important item for this is the something or other of tactical positioning. It has an encounter power that makes an extra spot count as an ally for flanking as a minor action. Also, how high is the wisdom of the warforged. I think that the fighter is the best chance for getting extra attacks and the wisdom bonus would help hit. Off the top of my head that is about it.
#3 phytoon Nov 12, 2009 18:00:04	My main concern with this party is the shortage of controllers. You have one paladin mc invoker, but I'm sure he'll be too busy tanking to throw some spells around. IMO controllers are as integral a component as leaders, since they can dissuade enemies from trying to flank you. Also, nothing really says hello like a blast of fire to start the encounter. I say you should consider what type of terrain you are anticipating in this campaign. If you're going to be in the open, you're pretty well screwed, but if it's going to be more of a dungeon setting, with narrow corridors, you could manage as you are.
#4 fallmore Nov 12, 2009 18:20:30	We never are allowed to have potions or a house ruled item for healing in this campaign. In terms oc terrian there is sometimes when we are in side and others when we are out. nothing ever too drastic and nothing really do strange with the monsters either.   The fighter has a polearm and is a great weapon fighter in plate, the barbarian also has plate.  The DM does good with the monsters enough, but i will say this amount the players there is NO teamwork, ocasional flanking is all we ever get.
#5 phytoon Nov 12, 2009 18:47:01	We never are allowed to have potions or a house ruled item for healing in this campaign. In terms oc terrian there is sometimes when we are in side and others when we are out. nothing ever too drastic and nothing really do strange with the monsters either.   The fighter has a polearm and is a great weapon fighter in plate, the barbarian also has plate.  The DM does good with the monsters enough, but i will say this amount the players there is NO teamwork, ocasional flanking is all we ever get. Well, then I would say your biggest problem is the team dynamic. Of course, if you can get past that, then you don't really need a leader or a controller. However, I will offer you this bit of insight into how 4e differs from 3.5, which is pretty critical to your understanding of how you might perform. In 3.5, the DM rolls dice to determine the hit points of the monsters (not sure if you knew that, but you said you had no experience before 4e), whereas in 4e the monsters all have set hp. There will be no "easy" encounters because the DM had bad luck with the dice rolls. So work on your teamwork, which shouldn't be too hard, and try to focus on sorc powers that really mess up your enemies, kinda similarly to a controller, but still dealing decent damage. Again, this shouldn't be hard. I believe the dark sorc had some powers that made enemies blind. Or was that fey pact?
#6 fallmore Nov 12, 2009 19:31:51	i played 3.5 for a while, an to an extent pathfinder so im not just a 4E type person.  Many of our party members i belive have moves that have affects such as slow or -5 to attack rolls while still doing damage. so some underlining controler type going there.  so without any heals you think it would be possible to get around and survive fine?  Assuming proper team work
#7 phytoon Nov 12, 2009 19:44:51	Yeah, usually with my group, we end up unable to heal during combat (I'm the only one with a cleric, but I play my rogue, my friend has a bard, but ends up just giving us temp hp when we kill stuff), so when combat's over, we're using probably 4 surges. However, we're playing the published campaigns, so they're designed to be evil. Also, you have lots of people with high AC, so hopefully you guys won't be taking too many hits along the way. The thing with my cleric is that I play her whenever we're short a person. If you end up getting owned by everything, you should probably ask your DM if you could play two characters, and make a cleric or something to fill the void. But first, try to see how you do without a leader.
#8 FitzNighteyes Nov 12, 2009 19:45:58	IMX the key to surviving without leaders is to be able to deal out LOTS of damage, so you take down the opponents as fast as possible.  Looks like you have that covered.  Control is also nice, even if its single target control that's secondary to damage within your powers.  Your party will want to sprinkle some self healing powers, and the pallies may want to make sure they have Lay on Hands available.  Also, it's only one feat for each player to get a Healing Word or Inspiring Word once per day (assuming they aren't MCing already into another class).
#9 kamikazegerbil Nov 12, 2009 20:06:21	The party I run for consists of a Battlerage Fighter, Assault Swordmage, Rageblood Barbarian, Storm Sorcerer and a Feylock. They're currently level 5 and doing fine (although they tend to go through surges quickly). I've eased things a little by handing out Healing Potions (I understand no house ruled items but why won't your GM let you have healing potions?) a little more often. I do sometime have to reduce monster damage a little but not as much as I thought I'd need to. You just need to work together and bring enemies down fast.
#10 Neutronium_Dragon Nov 13, 2009 7:58:05	> We never are allowed to have potions Why not? As for the party dynamic: the dragon shaman could easily be converted to a dragonborn warlord. They're very similar in terms of their role and outlook, and the warlord's powers can easily be renamed and have their description changed to match the dragon theme. Dragonborn also make excellent inspiring warlords since they have a boost to both relevant stats.
#11 fallmore Nov 13, 2009 18:13:43	well with the majoity of the party ( the paladin, paladin/avenger, fighter, barbaian) in plate they should have an AC of 25 with nads  a little below that.  My sorccer has ac of 22 and low defenses all around. like i mentioned before there is pratically no teamwork just everyone attack something, usualy not one on one though.  No potions or food or any houseruled items. With pratically no way of in battle healing aside from second wind (that can be a minor actoin without the +2) if we all just shoot our super dammage at a monster  then we should be fine is what im hearing so far. though perhaps my questoin was a bit missleading as i am debating weather to play the cleric or the sorrcer. As if i play the sorrcer then there is no healing in battle, but the cleric does less dammage. as the sorrcer gets +19 to dammage, vs the clerics + 10
#12 luneth_hireydin Dec 19, 2009 9:22:40	Ahem Gale is a Paladin MC *AVENGER*! Our Polearm Fighter is sorta like a controller, he'll soon push everyone around and prone them with everyone attack. I'm built around a healing surge engine and force of arms, lolz. As far as teamwork goes, we'll probably be decent enough, dunno. I posted this for no reason. Oh yea and I'm trying not to be a tank. I wanted to be a divine striker, but also to wear plate. I have a houserule to lose divine challenge and gain ardent vow, so I have it AND LoH. Decent enough, I prolly suck. dood
#13 tiornys Dec 20, 2009 1:22:29	If you're not going to have fun with this, just play the Sorcerer, but I have to say that party looks amazing for a pacifist Cleric build.  Pacifist Clerics have more than enough healing to manage 5-6 other PC's, and their debuff powers are great for enabling the rest of the group to do damage (not so incidentally this should improve teamwork as your debuffs are strong incentives for the rest of the party to focus fire).  With 4-5 allies who are focused on teh 733+ damages, your debuffs will act like point and click explosions of gore. t~
#14 shane_gocke Dec 20, 2009 13:16:50	the thing about dnd that isnt like wow is you dont need the healer tank dps setup you can run adventures with 5 strikers and if u play smart it will work in my opinion you dont have to have one of any type of class
#15 zakmonster Dec 20, 2009 22:17:31	Don't worry about not having teamwork. The combat in 4e naturally makes a team work together, just by having a grid and forced movement. Sooner or later, your party will start to work and complement each other better. Happened to my party and we were horribly disparate.
#16 fallmore Dec 20, 2009 22:42:34	I think playing a dammage dealer would be more fun then using astral seal every turn. His personality is not as cool as the cleric, which is why i wanted to play the cerlic.  So far the deal works like this, we are unsure if the dragon shamman will even appear in the party or someone else altogeher. I will being playing as the sorrcer, and if we get beat up every battle then i will make a switch to the cleric. In our current campaign battles ussualy work like this an enimy is attacking you, no matter what your AC is, "you are hit, and take 30 points of dammage and are proned" maybe we are proned about half the time but i figured a striker with 22 ac and 70 hp will can only take a few of those 27 damage hits, and then i would be dead ;( we shall see