The new guy is pretty new to 4th. He has been playing with us for a couple of months now so he hads the basic rules down.
I missed the first session last weekend because of my honeymoon.
The players started out at level 3 and by the end of session they were level 4. This concerns me a bit. I really don't like fast leveling.
A player that was involved said they blew through everything. I asked how you don't have a healer? Did the DM use the Xp budget.
He had not so all the encounters where way underpowered.
Since all the players had hit level 4 I started making a level 4 pc.
I was told I would have to start at level 3. This is another thing I hate having in a group. Players of differnt levels can really mess with a game.
The DM also wanted a background and would award 500 bonus exp. I hate writing backgrounds because DMs never use them in story. It's a big waste of time. I would love to have it used in game but haven't found a DM I have played with use them.
My wife is playing and she doesn't like getting to involeded in making her PC. She likes to get there play, socialize and have fun. Now she is being punished for not having a background. She will be lagging far behind other players. We could end up with 1 player at level 3, 1 player at level 4, and a couple of players at level 5.
I am going to play but going in with a mindset I am not going to like it. Trying to figure out what to do
The DM also wanted a background and would award 500 bonus exp. I hate writing backgrounds because DMs never use them in story. It's a big waste of time. I would love to have it used in game but haven't found a DM I have played with use them.
Let the DM know that if they don't use the background you've painstakingly provided, you'll award yourself 500 bonus XP.
I missed the first session last weekend because of my honeymoon.
First the joke - you are obviously not dedicated enough to D&D. hehe.
The DM also wanted a background and would award 500 bonus exp. I hate writing backgrounds because DMs never use them in story. It's a big waste of time. I would love to have it used in game but haven't found a DM I have played with use them.
My wife is playing and she doesn't like getting to involeded in making her PC. She likes to get there play, socialize and have fun. Now she is being punished for not having a background. She will be lagging far behind other players. We could end up with 1 player at level 3, 1 player at level 4, and a couple of players at level 5.
I am going to play but going in with a mindset I am not going to like it. Trying to figure out what to do
Now the real advice. It seems you have a problem here. I see that you are a tactical player with little concern for the "Role Playing" elements of the game. This is fine for you. This is not fine for the game you are joining because this DM takes the "Role Playing" elements like character personality, character motivation, and character background as important enough elements that he is willing to reward you for producing them. It seems your wife has a similar problem to yours.
This is not to say that there is any inherent superiority to Tactical Playing or Role Playing. It is really just a matter of taste. The problem here is a difference in tastes.
Frankly there is one thing you can change here though - your attitude. If you go into a game planning not to like it, then you have just created a self fullfilling prophesy for yourself. I can pretty much guarantee you won't have fun, and you will blame someone else for it. To me personally this seems like a pretty silly way to spend your time. I generally don't play things, watch things, or otherwise spend my personal time in unenjoyable ways unless their is some clear upside to the effort (like affection from my wife).
I ask you this - What is the upside to going in to the game with the attitude you won't like it?
Your reasonable choices are as follows:
1) change the game. Pick up the reigns as DM and run the kind of game you like.
2) change the game #2. Join a different gaming group.
3) change your attitude. Try to honestly give Role Playing a chance here.
It is not a reasonable choice to go to this game with a chip on your shoulder, and a determination to not enjoy yourself. That will certainly spoil your own fun, and risks making you seem like a mopey ass to the rest of the group while potentially spoiling their fun as well.
I hope this helps.
...
I ask you this - What is the upside to going in to the game with the attitude you won't like it?
Your reasonable choices are as follows:
1) change the game. Pick up the reigns as DM and run the kind of game you like.
2) change the game #2. Join a different gaming group.
3) change your attitude. Try to honestly give Role Playing a chance here.
It is not a reasonable choice to go to this game with a chip on your shoulder, and a determination to not enjoy yourself. That will certainly spoil your own fun, and risks making you seem like a mopey ass to the rest of the group while potentially spoiling their fun as well.
I hope this helps.
^^^This.^^^
- - -
I missed the first session last weekend because of my honeymoon.
First the joke - you are obviously not dedicated enough to D&D. hehe.
The DM also wanted a background and would award 500 bonus exp. I hate writing backgrounds because DMs never use them in story. It's a big waste of time. I would love to have it used in game but haven't found a DM I have played with use them.
My wife is playing and she doesn't like getting to involeded in making her PC. She likes to get there play, socialize and have fun. Now she is being punished for not having a background. She will be lagging far behind other players. We could end up with 1 player at level 3, 1 player at level 4, and a couple of players at level 5.
I am going to play but going in with a mindset I am not going to like it. Trying to figure out what to do
Now the real advice. It seems you have a problem here. I see that you are a tactical player with little concern for the "Role Playing" elements of the game. This is fine for you. This is not fine for the game you are joining because this DM takes the "Role Playing" elements like character personality, character motivation, and character background as important enough elements that he is willing to reward you for producing them. It seems your wife has a similar problem to yours.
This is not to say that there is any inherent superiority to Tactical Playing or Role Playing. It is really just a matter of taste. The problem here is a difference in tastes.
Frankly there is one thing you can change here though - your attitude. If you go into a game planning not to like it, then you have just created a self fullfilling prophesy for yourself. I can pretty much guarantee you won't have fun, and you will blame someone else for it. To me personally this seems like a pretty silly way to spend your time. I generally don't play things, watch things, or otherwise spend my personal time in unenjoyable ways unless their is some clear upside to the effort (like affection from my wife).
I ask you this - What is the upside to going in to the game with the attitude you won't like it?
Your reasonable choices are as follows:
1) change the game. Pick up the reigns as DM and run the kind of game you like.
2) change the game #2. Join a different gaming group.
3) change your attitude. Try to honestly give Role Playing a chance here.
It is not a reasonable choice to go to this game with a chip on your shoulder, and a determination to not enjoy yourself. That will certainly spoil your own fun, and risks making you seem like a mopey ass to the rest of the group while potentially spoiling their fun as well.
I hope this helps.
This would all be true if I didn't roleplay. Luckily I do roleplay a lot. I develop my PC through out the game. I give him a attitude, a small background that develops as the game moves on. I have spent to much time writing backgrounds for my PCs to have the PC die two sessions later.
I did state I hate writing back grounds because I have yet to see a DM invole it in the game. It becomes a waste of time if the DM never uses it or only punishes players that don't want to roleplay as much
I have DMned for this group before. We have rotating DMs. This DM is new and new to 4th. I don't think anyone has shown him anything. Like I said he didn't know about the exp budget.
Me and my friend who have both DM for this group find it so much better if everyone is the same level or only few exps points difference. What problems differnt leveled pc bring is for another thread.
It's a bit harder because I can't talk to the DM in question till the day of the game
I don't doubt that this DM has some issues which could be improved upon. I do not question your evaluation that he is unfamiliar with 4E and that miss matched character levels could cause some in game difficulties. However, these are things which are not within your power to immediately change. I could sympathise and agree with you all day long that your situation sucks, but your situation will still suck when I am done.
The point I am making is that one aspect of your situation is directly under your control. How you respond to it. If you are determined to make yourself unhappy about it, then guess what, you will be unhappy. The first step to improving any situation is to take positive steps which are in your control. You control your attitude. Come into this bad situation with a better attitude, and you will see at least one improvement in the situation. Don't be determined to have a bad time due to what is happening, be determined to have a good time in spite of it.
I hope this helps.
If you do think you aren't going to enjoy it, you probably wont, and to be honest it would probably be better for you to not go, since if you are not enjoying it you're probably going to impact negatively on everyone elses enjoyment as well...
If he's rewarding character backgrounds he may be very likely to weave them into the story. On the other hand, fi you give him a short background with no plot hooks he's probably not going to put in the effort to flesh out your background, add plot hooks and merge it with the story. I'd say write a background with some plot hooks, perhaps even mention when you send it to him that you'd like to see the drow tribe who murdered your father due to a family vendetta explored a little. It might work out well for you. If you feel the encounters are too easy and you say he's new to 4th ed, perhaps mention at the end of the session that you feel all the encounters have been too easy so far, and, for example, you found that a good mix of soldiers and brutes worked well for you, and if you take two giant apes and two temple guardians you can fill the XP budget as well.
If you do think you aren't going to enjoy it, you probably wont, and to be honest it would probably be better for you to not go, since if you are not enjoying it you're probably going to impact negatively on everyone elses enjoyment as well...
I have never met a DM who used backgrounds so I am not thinking this one will.
I am going to go and play I just have the feeling i am not going to like it.
This is evident I think in the background story for my current character and game posted here community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758....
As a player I always view a background story as a chance to create role play opportunities. Done right it inspires the DM and even the other players to role play more, and worry about combat resolution/loot gathering a touch less.
As a writer I view each character background as necessary practice in creating characterizations for my novels. This character and setting will eventually end up as a tertiary character in my third novel. It also features as secondary characters two key figures from my first novel. When I think of background stories, all I see are opportunities to learn and grow.
I hope you can also envision the potential opportunities you are tossing away by rejecting the concept of character background stories as worth the effort. I've written likely hundreds of them over the years, and never thought one of them was a waste of my time.
I hope this helps.
If he's rewarding character backgrounds he may be very likely to weave them into the story. On the other hand, fi you give him a short background with no plot hooks he's probably not going to put in the effort to flesh out your background, add plot hooks and merge it with the story. I'd say write a background with some plot hooks, perhaps even mention when you send it to him that you'd like to see the drow tribe who murdered your father due to a family vendetta explored a little. It might work out well for you. If you feel the encounters are too easy and you say he's new to 4th ed, perhaps mention at the end of the session that you feel all the encounters have been too easy so far, and, for example, you found that a good mix of soldiers and brutes worked well for you, and if you take two giant apes and two temple guardians you can fill the XP budget as well.
If you do think you aren't going to enjoy it, you probably wont, and to be honest it would probably be better for you to not go, since if you are not enjoying it you're probably going to impact negatively on everyone elses enjoyment as well...
I have never met a DM who used backgrounds so I am not thinking this one will.
I am going to go and play I just have the feeling i am not going to like it.
Congratulations! You just did. *shakes your hand*
Heck in one of our playgroups the DM fell in love with my character so much that his plot became a subplot and my backstory became the main plot of the campaign. Just keep roleplaying until the DM gives in.
I'm glad to hear it.
This is the kind of inspiration for DMs and other players I am talking about. When your back story is interesting and compelling then the DM sees plenty of good plot hooks and character motivations they can integrate into their own campaign. Among the most compelling GMs I have ever played with is one from my college days in the late 1980's who limited each game to 2-3 hours, and then spent at least 1-2 hours after game talking with their players about their impressions of the session and their character motivations and goals moving forward. He never failed to focus his game on presenting the charcters with compelling stories related to their personal goals and objectives. He also knew to end each game in a compelling cliffhanger moment which drove player anticipation for the next game through the roof.
We had entire game sessions where the dice were never needed, and all the players always had a blast. This has been my holy grail of gaming ever since that time. I don't complain when other GMs fall short of this mark, but I do try to inspire them to reach for it. Creating a charcter with a compelling background is one way to inspire your DM to up his own game.
I hope this helps.
I don't award XP bonuses anymore for the exact reason you mentioned - it creates a disparity that penalizes everyone instead of rewarding some. If you end up with some characters at level 4 and others at level 3, that means the party as a whole is less effective. Plus, the players who DID create a background don't get a very concrete reward for their actions.
Honestly, it will matter less and less over time, but tell the DM (privately, perhaps) that you are worried that XP bonuses might create an unfun disparity between characters. Suggest alternate rewards. In my game I considered awarding one-time use action points. I ended up making some tarot cards, along the lines of GameMastery's Plot Twist cards - each card could be spent either for a beneficial game effect, or for an opportunity to nudge the storyline a little.
As for fast leveling, it's a pain because you have to update your character more often and you get less chances to use your powers before they change...but I'm having a hard time seeing how this happened. If you know how it happened, you can suggest an adjustment to keep it from happening again. If all the encounters were underpowered, how the hell did everyone accumulate enough XP to level in one session? It takes 8-10 level-appropriate encounters to level, right? If the encounters were underlevel, I don't see how they would have bumped everyone up unless the DM was futzing with XP values or handing out story XP like candy.
Talking to the DM and the players about your concerns non-confrontationally is a good way to handle problems. Be open-minded and non-judgemental. The DM isn't the only one responsible for making the game experience fun for everyone. Players have to help out too.
It's a bit harder because I can't talk to the DM in question till the day of the game
Well, Rian, that means you've got until then to figure out how you wanna say what you wanna say. If he's not really a bad guy, just running a game you're not happy with, be nice about it and bring up your concerns. If you game at his house, show up a few minutes early to talk, if not, try to grab him after the game. He's new to the DMing, try to get him to read the DMG.
I think DMPCs in NPC mode are a feasible method of providing party assistance in a game. As Sean-crees has said they have to hover in the background, not make party decisions, take party guidance on tactical behavior, and fill in for weaknesses in party composition to help balance out combat encounters. They should never be allowed to overshadow the players with their abilities. My frequent use is the pacifist "medic" style npc who shows up when a party is taking an unexpected and unplanned beating from a series of innopportune dice roll results. They won't win an encounter for the party as they don't fight, but they will keep the party just healthy enough to survive it on their own.
The other kind of DMPCs are not properly DM characters, but the characters used by "irregular" players. The DM holds the PC "hovering" in the background to occasionaly perform their role to assist the party when the irregular player is gone. If the irregular player makes a session, then they run the DM PC for that game. If they want a "full time" character with rights of decision making on advancement choices/rights to pick on loot drops, then they need to up their game attendance.
I hope this helps.
I used to do this, but I have given up on it.
Usually, if the PC's survive because an NPC jumped in to help them, the players don't like it.
Personally, I'd rather have my PC die if we screw things up. You can always use raise dead.
I suspect that the reason why people don't like this kind of help is that they want to make it on their own. They don't find their limits if they always get a boost when things look bad.
For the same reason, I have switched from rolling in secret and occasionally fudging dice, to rolling in the open and going with what comes up. The tension level is higher and I have no problem with changing the flow of the game if someone dies. It is my job as a DM to create encounters that don't cause TPK situations - sure you can have a string of bad rolls, but TPK's are unlikely still.
Plot related help is ok occasionally, at least for me.
I don't doubt that your experience varies by party and the player's view of what they want from a game. If you have a group of players who are perfectly fine with TPKs, then as a DM I wouldn't bother sending a DMPC in NPC mode to help them out in a tight spot. If you have a party of players who are very persona invested in their characters, and don't mind the occasional bit of NPC assistance, then that is the route I would take. It really is a matter of knowing your player preferences, and running the game in a manner that causes the most fun for the group.
I find it hard to say that one way or another way is the only way to do it in a rule system. It really is a situational condition which depends on player game expectations. Most times (knowing my players) that I've ever had a medic NPC drop into the end of a near TPK situation to bail out the characters the players have been appreciative of it. I've never had them cussing me out or calling me a bad DM about not letting them all die. That is just my experience, and your experience/preferences may vary.
Personally as a player I put quite a bit of thought into my character concept, and while I don't want "Hero" NPCs leading the charge every time and blasting their way through opposition as the player characters sit on the sidelines, I also don't mind if a series of crappy roll results get moderated by some pitched in NPC assistance.
One of my favorite quotes ever from a convention game was: "We're going to need all the squirrels we can get!" This happened as a combat was turning rough for our "sans-medic" party (it was a pick-up game with a group of strangers, and none of the players had a cleric ready to play) The DM took mercy on us, and had his story NPC Druid send a squirrel with a healing spell to get us through the fight.
Nothing says that the player party has to be the only set of adventurers in the world, and at nearly any place it should be conceivable to bump into a different adventurer (perhaps one separated from their own party who went to investigate the sounds of combat hoping to find them again). If the NPC is bailing out the party combat after combat I would certainly agree with your assessment. If it happens once or twice in an entire campaign, then as a player I would appreciate it more than think the DM had stolen our thunder.
I hope this helps.
Sure, experiences vary. I was not trying to convey the idea that what I do is the only way to go (I don't say that often, if ever).
I just meant that DMPC's should be handled with care and you should be able to tell if the players like it or not. You can even ask them about it after the session and decide if you will continue to run with one or not.
I also think that I personally enjoy NPC assistance the most if the encounter already takes that into account somehow. We have had encounters where someone helped the PC's but the number of enemies was more than we could have handled otherwise.
I've met DMs who use backgrounds, and those who don't. I've never seen one demand a background if he wasn't going to use it though. Personally, I don't require backgrounds but I love getting them and will incorporate them heavily.
Most DM's who want background have the intent of using them, but never do.
I've met DMs who use backgrounds, and those who don't. I've never seen one demand a background if he wasn't going to use it though. Personally, I don't require backgrounds but I love getting them and will incorporate them heavily.
Most DM's who want background have the intent of using them, but never do.
I would suggest one slight modification to your sentence, and I would agree with you completely.
"Most DM's in my experience who want background have the intent of using them, but never do."
This is a point many of us have been trying to make. It is possibly a mistake to generalize all DMs from your own personal experience in this arena.
I've met DMs who use backgrounds, and those who don't. I've never seen one demand a background if he wasn't going to use it though. Personally, I don't require backgrounds but I love getting them and will incorporate them heavily.
Most DM's who want background have the intent of using them, but never do.
I would suggest one slight modification to your sentence, and I would agree with you completely."Most DM's in my experience who want background have the intent of using them, but never do."
This is a point many of us have been trying to make. It is possibly a mistake to generalize all DMs from your own personal experience in this arena.
Generalatzion is being used if people think that most DMs use backgrounds.
I have been gaming over 20 years played since AD&D and have had many differnt DMs on the east coast. I would hate to say it's just my bad luck that every DM I have player with in over the last 20 years have never used backgrounds in game.
I have been gaming since 1978 pre-AD&D and in my experience many, (if not absolutely most) DMs do take a well prepared character background into consideration in their campaigns. My current DM has now three times in game used specific elements in my character background in his game (over 6 sessions since the campaign reboot to level 1 characters, thus half the game sessions so far has an element of my character background appear). He has e-mailed me for guidance on integrating other elements in his game just this week. (Our current group games over computers using RP Tools Maptool and Skype as we are in 3 different time zones). My experience has been pretty good on that scale, and I am sorry to hear about your current 20 year string of DMs who don't understand the importance of it to players.
I include an excerpt from the e-mail series below:
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Ken wrote:I agree 100 percent. Hopefully breaking up our jaunts into the scar will spur everyone's imagination. I'll send you a calendar later today so you can see what you can do with it.
Sent from my iPhone
----------------------
On Sep 30, 2010, at 6:15 PM, Kelly wrote:
Ken,
I don't have acrobat, however, I do have Adobe InDesign CS5 which is much more fully featured anyway. I haven't tried editing some other .pdf with it, but it certainly can generate .pdf files. We should talk via phone or skype so I can get a better grasp about what your ideas about calendar management would entail/require.
Presuming typical 4E cosmology works for the Forgotten Realms (which it should based on the Neverwinter Nights series of video games) Thin spots between the realm of shadow and the prime material are almost always going to be associated with any temples of a death god or goddess (it makes the peforming the rights to effectuate spirit transfer as part of funeral ceremonies easier). However, these don't need to be currently used temples. Otherwise other thin zones will exist in randomish locations which are harder to predict. If you like, one of Brinders ring functions (as per my character background story) lets him tune in on any nearby thin spots or new shadow gateways which may exist, thus he can use it like a homing beacon to discover "unmarked" thin spots. The other function is it allows a mental communication link to Balinac when the connection is clear enough. Unknown to Brinder, Balinac's link to him is always able to follow what he is doing/saying, and Balinac will always know his current status/job assignment performance. In the Meta-game sense Balinac is a pan-dimensional hyper inteligent being which using the ring (a non-physical object made of concentrated spiritual/primal energy directly from Balinac) can piggy back on his senses, but it can not read his unprojected thoughts or his projected thoughts away from a thin spot. Brinder's mind just isn't powerful enough in the primal energy spectrum to broadcast conscious thoughts through the normal "gap" between planes. Presumably a "primal power" based character would not have that limitation, but since they are not shadow based like Brinder, then Balinac (the proverbial source of shadow) would not likely find an affinity with them or use for them. Per my story Thomas the Poisoner (not properly D&D cannon by any measure) Balinac can now only physically manifest on most of the Prime where it's prime material avatar "The Shinigami" is present.
Brinder is also only one of Balinac's many pans in the fire (the majority of which are not in Faerun), and ultimately a lone disposable asset at risk at this juncture. Brinder is well aware of his disposable asset nature, and he understands that great honor and reward for him and his people awaits in the afterlife with the Raven Queen (whom he knows as the White Raven) if he provides honest good sevice to Balinac's cause.
So outside of Chaos Scar in larger communities where more "varieties" of temples exist, Brinder has an easy job getting/sending messages by simply getting near the location, and acting like a supplicant in prayer. Here near Chaos Scar I suggest either a secluded cave, or any other exceptionally shaded spot such as down in a deep ravine which doesn't frequently see full sunlight for example. Another interesting alternative could be the bottom of a dry well (shades of the movie "the Ring" there). As Brinder has decent athletics and theiving skills, reaching these locations through climbing shouldn't be exceptionally difficult especially with his shadow "teleporting" capabilities. In game it could be interesting if he is followed, and someone sees him "fade" into his shadow near one of these spots, not quite grasping to where he has "faded". Especially if they wait and see him appear rising from the shadow of the well later. He does have long black hair, and a palid greyish complexion. It certainly could cause someone who's seen "The Ring" to have some second thoughts about him. I'm liking the dry well idea more and more, hehe. I'll leave the location of said well up to you, and it seems a more likely spot than a cave as it's less likely to have residents inside. (Unless you plan to have a creepy dark haired pale skinned girl waiting by it one day for Brinder's arrival.)
In regards to puting some non-published material in front of us soon, I do like my Role Play portions of the game. I'm trying to encourage the others to join in that aspect. I've been lurking and posting on the Wizards D&D forums (as zmortis) quite a bit lately putting in my two cents about Roll and Role play in 4E. Since most of the people seem to focus on the mechanics of combat resolution and encounter balancing, they seem to miss out that 4E is still perfectly suitable for Role Playing activites if the players can unclench their race/class optimizing spincters enough to recognize the opportunities to step away from the combat mechanics long enough to do some Role Playing. I don't know how many times I've read a thread where one player complains another player in their group "failed" to put together the optimal build for their character, and now the party was "gimped" by their having sub-optimal character with only a 15AC instead of the optimal 17AC with heavier armor in spite of skill check penalties (which obviously don't matter because it doesn't impact combat). I just shake my head, and hope at least some DMs understand how to not kill an entire party over something so foolishly trivial as a 2 point difference from optimal max AC on one character.I'll catch you soon.
Kelly
----------------------From: Ken
To: Kelly
Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 4:59:58 PM
Subject: Keeper of the CalendarI want to start keeping a calendar for the campaign. I figure it would be a good thing the two of us could work on. I'm trying to work out the best way to do it. Do you have access to Adobe Acrobat? I was thinking of using the Wizards Forgotten Realms Calendar tool and just putting out monthly calendars to as a PDF. I can add notes to it. If you can make modifications to a PDF then I can repost it for the other guys to see. Otherwise I'm thinking of coming up with something both of us could access and modify on a web page.
Also, I want to develop where you're disappearing to when you communicate with Balinac. Restwell Keep is way out in the boonies so it would be impractical for you to travel to another town or city to get to a temple. Could it be an old ruined temple perhaps? One that still has the a connection to the pathway you need? We could come up with something like that a days ride away or so.
I let the guys know we're going to leave the published adventure path for a little bit after the current adventure to develop some home-brew stuff I'm developing out of the Restwell Keep information. Might be a couple of nights with a bit less swordplay coming up.
Ken
I suggest you take it into consideration if you DM your own games, and learn from it.
I hope it helps.
We still haven't sent a hint of a background yet. I have accepted that once again the backgrounds were a waste of time. I have moved on.
Now what is getting me is almost every encounter seems to easy.
I even asked once what level where the monster's level we were fighting. They all were one level below us, but felt like there where 3 levels below us.
I finally brought it to the DM's attention that I thought most of the encounters were to easy. Most of the battles I didn't feel threatened( come to find out most of the group felt this way)
He almost got mad that I said this. I wasn't trying to insult his dming style, I think he took it as a personel attack. I assume most new DMs feel that way. He stated about the first battle of the day was hard. I said it wasn't hard...just long. Yeah someone went unconscious but that was it.
To put in shorter terms I don't feel that there is a chance we could lose a fight. There is nothing exicted no cliff hanging..with most of them.
The one before the last one was awesome and felt like that. A couple of guys where daze/stunned. Some were just proned. We were not getting thrown around like rag dolls, but I finally felt like this was a fight worth fighting.
Seems to be going well after that.
Oh yeah one last thing he doesn't award exp if you don't show up which is fine, but one guy hasn't been able to show up for two weeks in a row and is almost 2 levels behind(we almost leveled when he left 2 weeks ago and we are going to level this week). I want to see how this DM handles this situation
I think in your OP you pretty much said he was new to 4e, and you also implied later that he doesn't own any of the DMGs.
All that being considered, I think you're just going to have to let the game run its course. As someone who's been an inexperienced DM, if he doesn't solicit your opinions, he's more likely to be offended by them being offered. He's got to come into his own, on his own terms. I was a terrible DM once, and I didn't realize it until years later. Now, I'm getting another shot at it, and so far my group is having a lot of fun (I'm actually the 3rd DM for the group, as we've been doing a sort of Round Robin).
I know that's sucky advice, because it doesn't really solve your problem, but you're making the most of the situation, which is good, and it sounds like you're able to salvage the experience and actually enjoy it, which is even better. Many are not so lucky.
Best advice I can give is just keep talking to your friend that works with him. Maybe the friend will talk more to the DM (especially if the friend has any experience DMing), and maybe he'll work some things in, give the guy some tips, and maybe the guy will develop his skills as a DM. It does kind of suck being player for a learning DM, but think of it as giving back to the community ;)
Best of luck. It may also help to get him on these boards. They've helped me a ton.
We still haven't sent a hint of a background yet. I have accepted that once again the backgrounds were a waste of time. I have moved on.
I don't want to sound crass, but, if you had spent a fraction of the effort you had put into this thread on writing a background, it would be done.
Hope the campaign works out.
We are at game session 5..maybe 6 i don't remember now.
We still haven't sent a hint of a background yet. I have accepted that once again the backgrounds were a waste of time. I have moved on.
Now what is getting me is almost every encounter seems to easy.
I even asked once what level where the monster's level we were fighting. They all were one level below us, but felt like there where 3 levels below us.
I finally brought it to the DM's attention that I thought most of the encounters were to easy. Most of the battles I didn't feel threatened( come to find out most of the group felt this way)
He almost got mad that I said this. I wasn't trying to insult his dming style, I think he took it as a personel attack. I assume most new DMs feel that way. He stated about the first battle of the day was hard. I said it wasn't hard...just long. Yeah someone went unconscious but that was it.
To put in shorter terms I don't feel that there is a chance we could lose a fight. There is nothing exicted no cliff hanging..with most of them.
The one before the last one was awesome and felt like that. A couple of guys where daze/stunned. Some were just proned. We were not getting thrown around like rag dolls, but I finally felt like this was a fight worth fighting.
Seems to be going well after that.
Oh yeah one last thing he doesn't award exp if you don't show up which is fine, but one guy hasn't been able to show up for two weeks in a row and is almost 2 levels behind(we almost leveled when he left 2 weeks ago and we are going to level this week). I want to see how this DM handles this situation
Regarding the "no XP if you don't show up" issue, I would discuss with him.
A group/team oriented game is better if everyone actually is on the same level. I feel like penalizing for not showing up is not a good way to go. If someone is seldom free to play, they will show up even less often if they fall behind and thus the game will not be as interesting. Either keep those players in, and let them level with the others, or find some other solution.
The main point is that for a player to show up, the main reward is getting to actually play the game.
We did have similar issues with 2nd edition years ago, but somehow my perspective has changed on this over the years. This is a purely "gamist" issue in my opinion. The story should not matter for the leveling because the leveling issue is more profoundly going to affect the enjoyment of the game for the players lagging behind. The damage done by leveling up a PC even if he is not "active" is much less than the damage done to the players enjoyment of the game.
Obviously, in some (rare) games, the story is about the individuals much more than the party. In those games, I would probably just not play if someone crucial cannot show up. Or run an off-session short game for them to see what their PC did during his absence.
We still haven't sent a hint of a background yet. I have accepted that once again the backgrounds were a waste of time. I have moved on.
I don't want to sound crass, but, if you had spent a fraction of the effort you had put into this thread on writing a background, it would be done.
Hope the campaign works out.
I will point out I have said that I can do it I just hate it because it's not used in game...ever. So why force it upon someone
We still haven't sent a hint of a background yet. I have accepted that once again the backgrounds were a waste of time. I have moved on.
I don't want to sound crass, but, if you had spent a fraction of the effort you had put into this thread on writing a background, it would be done.
Hope the campaign works out.
I will point out I have said that I can do it I just hate it because it's not used in game...ever. So why force it upon someone
He's taking the time to put an adventure together and run it. You can right a short background. If you're not going to play with a positive attitude and put some effort into helping the DM and the group...don't play with him!
Just read what you wanted and not the whole thing.
The group has been helping him. I have made suggestions. I voiced some concerens. Currently my only concenerc is the huge level differnce between us and one player.
I did write a short background, but like I have said I haven't seen anyones background come into play yet. This is why I don't write backgrounds.
I really hope he makes the encounters a bit harder because most have been a cake walk.
The players made it through the first 5 encounters with no healer or extended rest, and then made it through another 5 encounters with no exteneded rest.
In total where 10 encounters with no extended rest...
So you've talked to him. If it hasn't improved and you've decided not to enjoy yourself. Quit playing
"...decided not to enjoy yourself"? What are you even talking about?
Have you read the OPs follow-ups, like, even a little? He is making efforts to enjoy the game, and he's having success with that. He is having some fun, but not as much as he would like to. Just because someone is enjoying themselves to a degree does not mean that all sources of frustration and concern completely and totally disappear forever.
I don't know why I'm wasting my time, you didn't read the part when he plainly said he made a background. You didn't read the part where he said he's trying to keep a positive attitude, where he said he's trying to be helpful.
I really wish people would work on the whole, "Have fun or quit" mentality. That's really not a successful attitude toward anything in life. Do you quit everything that's not immediately up to your standards of success? How's that working out for you?
If the player isn't having as much fun as he would like, he needs to think on why, and then he needs to talk to the rest of the group.
If one of my players came up to me and said, "Dude, I'm quitting. I'm just not having fun." I'd be pretty upset that he didn't bother to give me a chance to try to help improve his experience, and I'd feel more than a little betrayed by a friend.
One thing I like to do when I DM is to have the PC develop their backstories together. Too often each player creates and envisions their PC in a vacuum and I find this a helpful way to avoid this. I don't mean they all have identical backstories, but this allows them to weave their stories together and develop overlaps and points of contact between them. I also require every PC, unless there's a good character-based reason otherwise, to have a pre-existing connection to at least one other PC as a way of creating a network of relationships that coheres the party regardless of conflicts or frictions that may occur.
One flaw I sometimes find is that players put too much effort into their backgrounds, trying to detail every relationship and every event of their previous lives. I prefer when it is more of a skeletal structure with importn events and people filled in but with room to develop the other areas as the PC grows and experiences the world and as the game develops. This allows the background to develop to better fit the PC, campaign and setting without needing extensive retconning.
On a related note to player/DM communication, during play I find it a good idea to not only tell the DM what you are doing but why you are doing it, what you are hoping to accomplish with an action. This is especially true for social interactions where the outcome can be highly variable. While the hoped for outcome might seem an obvious one to you when you declare your course of action it might not even have occurred to the DM, thus making it impossible for it to happen. If you tell the DM what you are hoping to accomplish it still may not work out the way you wish, but at least the possibility exists.
Have you read the OPs follow-ups, like, even a little?
I clearly skimmed the follow ups too quickly, apologies to all!
Boraxe has excellent points all around. If I agree'd any harder I'd have to copy/paste it and pretend I said it.
Rian_king, I'm glad you've made progress and are at least enjoying yourself somewhat. The key, as has been pointed out, is communication. Keep at it, keep it friendly and you can influence the game and the DM. It may never fully live up to your expectations but perhaps you can volunteer to run the next game and demonstrate how to incorporate backgrounds and keep encounters challenging.
One of the problems with PC backgrounds in regards to being used by the DM is that the player and the DM may have a very different idea of what makes a good plot-hook. As always, this can be remedied by more effective communication. Instead of just handing over you backstory to the DM actually sit down with him and go over it, discuss the things in it you'd like to explore. Not all of them may fit the campaign arch, but at least it makes sure you and the DM are on the same page.
I agree that the backstory should involve DM input regarding their campaign setting. However, it is still contingent on the player to give hints as to the personality of the character they desire to portray. I also agree that there should be some personal elements to a back story which have no direct relevance to the current course of the campaign (a fondly remembered childhood sweetheart for example) but which add a touch of reality to the character's prior life.
One thing I like to do when I DM is to have the PC develop their backstories together. Too often each player creates and envisions their PC in a vacuum and I find this a helpful way to avoid this. I don't mean they all have identical backstories, but this allows them to weave their stories together and develop overlaps and points of contact between them. I also require every PC, unless there's a good character-based reason otherwise, to have a pre-existing connection to at least one other PC as a way of creating a network of relationships that coheres the party regardless of conflicts or frictions that may occur.
I think I agree that a player who has a problem understanding how to create hooks, and campaign relevant aspects to a backstory should get assistance from the DM and other players. I also agree that it is way cool when one or more PCs have interesting and coordinated interweaving backstories. However, as a DM I don't require all players to be linked to another player's past. I do require their backstory give a reason for them to be an adventurer (a tragic event, a life calling, an economic choice of job, thrill seeker, etc.), and a reason why they will cooperate with the majority of the party with which they are adventuring (and party goals). If the backstory is written such that they will attempt to justify undermining the party and their goals, I'll turn it back over to them with an instruction to creatively "rewrite" it to be cooperative.
One flaw I sometimes find is that players put too much effort into their backgrounds, trying to detail every relationship and every event of their previous lives. I prefer when it is more of a skeletal structure with importn events and people filled in but with room to develop the other areas as the PC grows and experiences the world and as the game develops. This allows the background to develop to better fit the PC, campaign and setting without needing extensive retconning.
I agree that I don't need a character backstory which includes a family history going back 6 generations of family members, but I find it fair for a character backstory to include mentions of immediate relatives, important formative life events, and any close friends which are important to the character. Each of these things can provide a potential hook to create character involvement in the future campaign. Personally in each backstory I write I mention who mentored the character into the adventuring lifestyle. This is a good source of future instruction/interaction as the campaign progresses. However, I also tend to write an actual story as a backstory first, and then work out with the DM how that story will interact and inform my character within the context of their campaign. I've been known to write 10-20 page stories as if they were the first chapter of a book detailing the early life of the character. Then the campaign become the "rest" of the character story as it progresses. I have yet to have one of my DMs complain the story was too involved, or not directly intertwined to their campaign setting in an intimate manner. (An example of my most recent character backstory is posted across multiple entries in this thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758.... )
On a related note to player/DM communication, during play I find it a good idea to not only tell the DM what you are doing but why you are doing it, what you are hoping to accomplish with an action. This is especially true for social interactions where the outcome can be highly variable. While the hoped for outcome might seem an obvious one to you when you declare your course of action it might not even have occurred to the DM, thus making it impossible for it to happen. If you tell the DM what you are hoping to accomplish it still may not work out the way you wish, but at least the possibility exists.
I also agree that communication is highly desireable. I frequently e-mail my DM after our sessions to explain rational/character motivation for recent actions and future driving motivations.
I have also given my character a backstory driven motivation for "adventuring" with the group, and outside of the story portion of the backstory detailed in discussion with the DM how my bounty hunter (assassin) has a desire to be party leader, but not the knack for politically communicating direction to fellow party members (he's way too condescending of contrary ideas). I specifically mentioned to the DM that following all of my character's dubious leadership should become disasterous for the party. Although he will actually have the occasional good idea, right now he's overly rash and impetuous. As a trained assassin he's a touch aloof and standoffish, but as a young adventurer also quite naive and overly trusting of people in authority. His life experience hasn't led him to understand that all authority figures are not equal in trustworthiness yet although he's had his first hint in his character background story.
As a case example as the "stealthy" one in the party he's frequently "on point" to survey the situation ahead. Twice now (thanks to failed stealth checks) he's come running back to the party with the opposition in "hot pursuit". It is a prime example where from a role play perspective a failed check ends up with a more fun result than a success would have been. I'm hoping the party will figure out that letting me lead on point is going to backfire frequently for now (since I'm only level two, and I while I do have a decent stealth check score, I also suffer very mixed luck on rolls).
Ultimately it is both these "meta" roleplay notes and the "story" portion of the backstory which help the DM link a backstory into their campaign. I did this without directly linking my backstory with another player's character, but by defining my character as needing the party to help achieve his own personal objectives. While he may disagree with them on occasion, his character concept is defined as always fairly quickly folding to the party and going with the consensus opinion when any minor disagreement arises. His mentor has said "play nice and fit in" so simply put he's going to do so. Thus you have a neutral (semi-amoral) assassin playing with a primarily good party without conflict. The trick is not defining the character as selfish, mercenary, or bloodthirsty, but instead as a mission goal oriented team player. The twist is for him the "team" isn't the party, but his set of mentors. If one of his "bounty" goals ends up in the path of the party, then they just happen to go down as well in the chaos of the frey, hehe.
By the way, the DM has exclusive control to set the current "bounty" for the character. The backstory and accessory information only gives the DM the guidlines on what the "bounty" really represents. That is firmly handing the DM an adventure hook to direct the character anywhere they need them, and it only requires trusting the DM will not steer you in a direction which isn't interesting.
I hope this helps.
The Only problem was, like many new DMs, he put a solo fight at the end. The solo had no other monters so we just had to punch through the mass amount of HPs he had. After the monster ran out of action points it was done.
I told him solos shouldn't go out by themselves because this would happen. I suggest just a few minons.
don't suggest too much or he'll think he's doing a bad job
If we didn't say anything he wouldn't know there was a problem.
Like I posted I said the encounters were to easy. So he made them hard enough to challenge us. If we didn't say anything he woudln't know.
The same thing with the solo. He said wow you guys really kick his ass. If didn't say solos really are not solos and need support
Yes, but you're not looking at it from his perspective.
From his perspective, he corrected one concern of yours, only to get another one. It becomes easier for him to come to the assumption (wrongly) that you're just going to complain no matter what he does, or that he's just not a very good DM, and should just give up.
Let him come to you. If he doesn't ask, don't tell. Sometimes he'll want to feel like he did an awesome job, sometimes he'll want to feel like he did good but could do better.
Also, kudos to the DM to reacting positively to this stuff and making serious improvements, it's surprisingly easy to just scream NO I'M DM DM IS ALWAYS RIGHT GO'WAY (or similar), especially when you're new and especially vulnerable/sensitive to criticism, or to 'bear the issues raised in mind' without ever acting on them.
On backgrounds - be proactive! Present the DM with a plothook, don't just wait for him to add it in. For example, my character was raised by dragons, so when we did a dragon-related campaign and we were stuck on a certain part - so I asked if I could ritually communciate with my adoptive mother. It didn't have to work, and it wasn't the solution the DM had written, but he rolled with it, went to visit Mummy, found a side quest, solved the part we were stuck on and had a whale of a time. Another never knew he was a half-elf as his ears had been mutilated, eventually another character 'accidentally' found out, and this again had massive bearing on the quest because the DM went, cool, I'll take the hint. If yours doesn't, then he doesn't. Maybe try again further in when he's more experienced.