In July my 3.5 group broke up when three of my five players left. Two finally graduated college and moved back to their home states, and the other made some bad decisions and ended up in jail. I guess I had a good run, though. I was DM for the past three years. Even though I was sad to see things come to an end, I decided to look at it as finally having time to really get into 4E, where finally I got to be a player again, rather than a DM.
At the end of August the group I was playing 4E with broke up when the DM had an unexpected death in the family which made it necessary to move out of state. Since his wife and son were two of our four players, there wasn't really any way to keep things going.
No D&D for me for 3 weeks!
I was talking to a work friend and mentioned that I was looking for a game. Imagine my surprise when he told me that his next door neighbors play, and were always on the lookout for new members.
The first night, before I had even had a chance to be introduced, the DM had to leave for a personal emergency. The other players insisted that I stay, since why waste the chance to get acquainted. The motley crew consisted of Grandma, her grandson, and the grandson's boyfriend. All of them are new to the game and don't have much experience with it, so I asked if I could see their character sheets. They seemed puzzled, so I pulled out one of mine and showed it to them.
"Oh, we don't have these. We just each have a spiral notebook and write all our stuff down in it. But where did you get it? It looks so organized!"
I was somewhat taken aback, but I pointed out that it was just a photocopy of the one from the back of the Player's Guide. It turns out that the only one who had a copy of the Player's Guide was the DM. Okay. Not everyone can drop the cash on the book. Fine. So since I had some extra copies of the sheet, I offered them around. As I helped them fill out their shiny new character sheets, I began to notice some problems. Like, for example, Grandma's eladrin wizard seemed to have close to 90 hp. At level 5. Grandson's tiefling rogue had the same problem. Boyfriend's human warlock did too, in addition to a nonproficiency penalty (!) for his rapier. It turns out that they'd been adding their Constitution score to their hp at every level, because (surprise!) that's the way the DM showed them to do it.
After helping them fill out their character sheets, we spent an enjoyable couple hours while we played question and answer, and I let them go through my Player's Guide and my copy of Adventurers' Vault.
Fast forward a week to Episode Two: The Phantom DM.
The DM ended up being about an hour late. No big deal. Stuff happens. We ended up just hanging out and discussing what type of character I should play. When the DM finally got there, I started off asking him about his experience as a DM. He admitted that this group was his first time, but told me that he had played a lot of 3.5, and 4E 'just wasn't that different.' I took the opportunity to gently point out some of the errors and misconceptions that had shown up, and he seemed to genuinely appreciate the help. Especially when it turned out that he wasn't even using any of the errata for the books!
After about a half hour, the DM gets a phone call. Personal emergency! See you next week!
Well, I certainly wasn't ready to go home yet- Grandma makes the best homemade brownies I have ever tasted and there were still some left- so I offered to run a timefiller minigame oneshot that my previous DM had introduced me to. Everyone jumped on the idea, but it soon became apparent that no one was really any good at combat. No one seemed to understand initiative, or minor/move/standard actions. They kept trying to use healing surges at random. Everyone kept making melee basic and basic attacks, rather than using their at wills. When I asked about it, Grandma told me that they were saving their at wills. "Um, saving them for what?" I asked. "You all do realize that your at wills are AT WILL, right? They don't run out!" Looked like the DM didn't really understand combat, either.
Fast forward to Episode Three: The DM Strikes Back
So finally we get to yesterday. Third time with this group and finally the DM is on time. He watched me make up a new character (elven cleric, because these guys look like they need all the healing they can get), and FINALLY I get to play. I decided that I would just deal with any problems as they arose, and arise they did. Things started off just fine. The DM was pleasantly surprised at how much smoother combat was going, until someone mentioned that I had given them some pointers and run a one shot for them. After that, things just went downhill. Every time someone made a roll, or attempted a skill check, or used a power, the DM would glare at me and make snide comments such as "Are we doing it right?" or "Let's ask the D&D expert"
After a short and very uncomfortable session, I took the opportunity to talk with the DM. The problem seems to be that he thinks I am trying to take over his game. He seemed to believe me when I denied it, but sternly warned me that if I kept disrupting his game that I wouldn't be welcome anymore.
Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with this situation? The group is tons of fun to be around, and I don't mind helping new players learn the game (or even a new DM). I just don't know whether or not it's going to be worth dealing with this DM, just for the sake of playing.
Thanks for putting up with my ranting!
You can play with me! You just have to move to Lewiston, ID.
Hmm, well, if you don't want to DM, just explain that you are only trying to help. I know how awkward a new DM feels (that's me!) If the DM cant DM and doesn't want to give up the reigns quit.
You can play with me! You just have to move to Lewiston, ID.
It wasn't that long ago that I was a newbie DM, and I can still remember how it felt. That's why I tried to go out of my way not to be a jerk when I corrected him, and not to nitpick. I just don't feel like he really understands the game.
And, actually, all the other players have asked me if I wanted to take over as DM, since this one has a punctuality problem.
And thanks for the offer, but maybe it would be better if you moved to Boise to play with me!
And thanks for the offer, but maybe it would be better if you moved to Boise to play with me!
See, that's the problem right there. You are playing with city boys. :P Well, maybe if your still down there when I go to college I can play with you. Mind if I add you as a buddy so I can keep in contact with you?
Maybe, it will have fixed itself when by the next session or maybe if it hasn't and there is another 'personal emergency' then you could talk to the others and tell them that the DM wasn't too happy with you even though you don't want to DM and were just trying to help. However, this could go either way. If they start defending you to him then he could get angry because now there all on your side even more or he could realise that you were just helping. It all depends on what kind of guy he is and what he's going through at the moment and what his relationship with the other people playing is like. Proceed with caution =)
It's hard to believe they got it so wrong, why will he not let the others read the PHB. It's obvious he doesn't have much time to spend so surely he would want the others to learn themselves rather than having to teach them everything.
Good luck.
If this group doesn't work out the good thing is that there are at least a few more people playing dnd.
...and the other made some bad decisions and ended up in jail. ...!
Whoa... That comment alone freaked me out. I hope the guy gets his life back on track.
The only advice I can give is this DM seems like a semi-control freak. And within three or four weeks he sees a new guy show up and threaten everything.
To me this group of yours is about 92% social and 8% D&D. I'd not fight it and I'd try not to snatch the group away.
BUT if this guy is being a PUNK, you might have to did deep and deal... Always be the nice guy and maybe this guy will mess up so much that the group will send him on his way.
Seems like the players are nice enough, albeit a little ignorant, but that's not really their fault. DM just probably feels like the players are going to start looking to you for answers rather than him. He may also be a little insecure - which he apparently should be since he's been teaching them things all wrong.
If you're willing to put up with all this and roll with the punches, it may work out - and you may get a few more killer brownies to sweeten the deal.
I recently moved, and attended a Meetup to try to hook up with players in my area, to rejoin a group. The one guy who volunteered to DM seemed very anti-4e. Which was cool, I guess, I've still got my 3.5 stuff, and could whip out a character pretty quick, especially at level 1.
It started off really fast and loose compared to the structured play I'd been used to, but I try to be adaptable. As we got involved in a combat, it became apparent that they weren't too up on the rules. I had downed a weakling enemy, and went to threaten another one. "Wait, you can't attack and move!" he and the other players protested, and wouldn't let me do it. We had similar disagreements over simple skill checks, feats, and spells. And I was using PHB core-only too. No wonder they didn't like 4e, 4e has rules, and they don't seem to like learning and following rules.
The motley crew consisted of Grandma, her grandson, and the grandson's boyfriend.
What is the DM's relationship to the players?
TS
It was the group that got me into the game. This was in the earlier days of 3.0, and while I started knowing nothing about the game at all beyond a peripheral interest in it (though I was not without gaming/hobby experience; I'd been a Warhammer player for some years by that point), I quickly found that I was making more of an attempt to learn the rules than any of the others had. Thus, it came down to a couple of months in, I still with the least experience of the lot but holding a more complete understanding of the game's rules as they existed at the time, that the "newbie" of the group was correcting others and spending more time teaching the game to a group that had supposedly been playing since the middling days of 2nd edition.
I do admit that, upon reflection of the 3.0 PHB, it was a rather poorly written affair, and had not, even to my then-untrained eyes, received enough attention from an editor. It is with that note that it was watching the combat logs in Neverwinter Nights that truly granted me an understanding of the rules in play, not simply a knowledge of them. But I digress.
I started DMing not long after that, on the thought that I could do a better job than the DM I joined under. This was my mistake -I've racked up hundreds of hours of D&D since then, but probably less than a tenth of that as a player.
Whatever the case, sometimes usurping control of the group for the sake of teaching all of them a few things about play isn't a bad thing. If the current DM rails against that, then it might be necessary to simply cut him out of the loop. You said the rest of the players expressed interest -tell them that you're starting up a game, and that they're all (including the current DM) invited. If the current DM doesn't show, that's on him, not you.
What is the DM's relationship to the players?
He's someone they know from church. Apparently they go to a small church where everyone knows everyone else.
Whoa... That comment alone freaked me out. I hope the guy gets his life back on track.
Well, I think that he learned one of life's most important lessons. No matter how drunk you are, if you try to grope the female officer that's arresting you it's considered assault and resisting arrest.
Well, I think that he learned one of life's most important lessons. No matter how drunk you are, if you try to grope the female officer that's arresting you it's considered assault and resisting arrest.
Anyway.
Your DM seems a bit insecure. Play along, quietly look for another game, try not to get too fat from the brownies.
Frankly, the snide comments are out of line, regardless of what he thinks you are trying to take over. He should know that, the rest of the group should know that.
If the other players asked you to be DM, then you clearly are welcome. I would... accept their offer. Who wants to play under a spiteful douchebag of a DM?
Everyone is still interested in continuing, though, so I've decided to take dirtyfrank's advice and put together some premade encounters so the others can get a feel for what's involved in running the game. And if all else fails, then I have no problem with taking over as DM. And if the Phantom DM decides that he wants to play with us, then of course he's welcome. :P
I just find the whole situation a little pathetic.
My main reason for the suggesting of the taking turns of DMing is that it helps give people an appreciation for the how hard it can be trying to run a game. It also helps teach a person how to improvise and how to ask for advice from those around the game table. Also it helps people learn the rules of the game sense they are having to manage and keep track of everything.
I am glad to hear that you are using my suggestion. Another thing I may suggest is possibly not have all the encounters be combat encounters. Maybe have one be a skills challenge that includes some role playing.
Well, good luck.
The D&D group I was once part of used to have a few different campaigns each run by a different DM, and the campaigns would rotate each week. It gave DMs more time to prepare, and lets people take turns as both players and DMs. So I think this will work out very well.
(insert sarcasm)Nummmmm Browniesssss :D
I would DM if I were you, of course you might put on a couple of pounds.
Some people get very defensive when they are dealing with a subject they know nothing about, but are expected to manage.
It sounds like your ex-DM was one of these people. I'd say don't be too harsh on him in your thoughts about him, and give the same advice to everyone else.
It is very un-nerving for some to be in a position of power and be expected to control a completely alien concept. It sounds like they made characters pretty much the same day he got the PHB, and as such he made a few errors that in my opinion if you have only read the PHB once or twice are going to happen.
Even if he acknowledges and knows he made these errors himself he has an elderly lady, and two young men who both expect him to be the man in charge and fair and correct, and to hold up his hands and say "I messed up big time and we need to start again."
With you coming in and using the correct rules, which to me it sounds like he knows but doesn't want to use because thats not how he started it, he sees it as you telling the rest of the group what an idiot he was for making mistakes, and this upsets him.
It is a problem with certain people, and infact with most people at some point in their life if they think about it, I know I am guilty of it at times.
It is good the DM stepped down, he obviously wasn't 'ready' to DM, good luck with the group.
He wanted to be DM because he wanted control. The other players didn't have PHBs, and didn't even know what a character sheet was, they were basically taking him at his word on everything, and were being forced to wait on his every beck and call, proven when he bailed twice. He got angry with you not because he felt like you were trying to take over, but because you were, in fact, taking away his power. He wanted to hoard the knowledge, and you shared it with the others, which took from him the ability to have them asking him their questions.
This is classic scenario. If he does join the group, you can be sure he's going to be disruptive in game, especially if you make a mistake, and he'll be gossipy out of game, and will try to win back the other gamers. This will likely lead to ostracism and his involvement will be short lived.
Incidentally, how's the game been running since then?
I am now the proud new DM of a group of complete noobs. It's actually pretty good, though, because they're all REALLY into role playing. Sometimes their enthusiasm shames me :P It is, however, really hilarious to watch a 62 year old lady bouncing in her seat shrieking, "Kill it with fire!!" when she makes a successful monster knowledge check. And the lance of faith/magic missile combo is now affectionately known as the Enterprise Gambit. (Phazers firing, photon torpedoes away!)
They're all having tons of fun, and so am I. My other 4e group (I was player, not DM) was so mired in 3e, that sometimes out of combat situations were more about 'Can I do X?' rather than 'I want to...'
The only problem, so far, is that I have an incipient powergamer. Luckily there is always the charop board, so I know what to look out for!
I'm glad to hear that everything has been going well.