New to 4.0, what should I do? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

New to 4.0, what should I do?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Moonflower_Seed
Dec 28, 2009 3:24:15 I'll keep it short. I've played 3.5 for a long time and don't really want to invest that much time in learning a new edition. Does 4E take long to pick up?
#2
kouk
Dec 28, 2009 3:39:43 What's taking "a long time"?

You run into lots of trouble if you just make assumptions based on 3.5 rules rather than carefully reading and rereading the rule book. Just assume that none of your preexisting assumptions held over from 3.5 will be anywhere near the same as how it is in 4th, except by coincidence.

Different game, similar themes. A kobold is not a "kobold." (EDIT: 24+ hit points and the determination and means to kill you.)

Depending on how open minded you enter into it and how easily you can think about it as a completely different game, you may pick most of it up after a few hours with some help from people who know the rules -- or you may never fully understand it ever. It's a lot bigger change than 3.0 to 3.5 was.

Anecdotally, it probably took a couple of months of playing for me to push aside many of my holdover thoughts, but the mechanics of it was mostly the first readthrough. Then I read the PHB again to make sure, which was a good idea since my brain was reading things incorrectly based on assumptions ("Oh, opportunity attack, I get it." -- not quite).

EDIT: The biggest thing I think you can do to sour yourself on it in advance though, is to treat it as an "upgrade" to 3.5. It's a different game. Also, if you primarily played casters in 3.5 ... don't start with a caster in 4th edition. Quite a lot of shell shock is possible.
#3
guang
Dec 28, 2009 3:58:14 I'd say an emphasis on Kouk's careful reading. Some of it took me quite awhile to really wrap my head around.
#4
Moonflower_Seed
Dec 28, 2009 4:35:55 Then how many books do I need to buy? I heard they don't even have all the classes in one Player's Hand Book.
#5
pluisjen
Dec 28, 2009 4:42:44 There's the "Essentials", which are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual.

Those three will keep you playing for a long time; they contain all the most important rules.

Everything else is optional; if you really like to play a Druid, you can pick up Players Handbook II, or if you really want to build a Bravura Warlord, you pick up Martial Power, but you don't need either of them to play a lot of different, interesting characters.

Also, since Prestige Classes no longer exist (they are now Paragon Paths) and more focus is put on your actual class, the number of Base Classes has really grown (there must be 20 of them now, I think? and more come out all the time) so they wouldn't fit in a single book anyway.

The Players Handbook contains a lot of the Archetypes, and the Players Handbook II fills it out so you have everything you had in the 3.5e PHB I and more.

But a lot of the classes have changed, so don't play a Fighter because you used to be a Fighter; it might very well be your old character concept works better in 4e if you use the Ranger class, or the Warlord.
#6
guang
Dec 28, 2009 5:41:15 might be worth signing up for insider for a month instead of buying the books....access to the character creator and other tools would cover most basic needs.
#7
kharmin
Dec 28, 2009 10:43:29 Starting out, the CB is a free download for level 1-3 and should get you started. Don't start with something overly complex; KISS and learn with the help of other players.

I am a long time 2ed DM/player and it took me a while to wrap my head around 4e... what did it for me was to completely ignore previous editions and concepts and take 4e at face value. If you try to have 4e make sense by comparing it to other editions it will take you longer to pick it up.

or not

whatever

/me shrugs @'s
#8
gargs454
Dec 28, 2009 11:21:44 The rules themselves seem pretty user-friendly to me. Essentially, in most (though not every) cases, the powers speak for themselves. (i.e. most everything you need to know is written into the powers, just factor in feats, etc. and you're good to go).

Where the learning curve comes in is realizing that its a completely new game which requires different approaches to combat. The biggest thing is that its almost essential that the party work together. Gone are the days where each character can more or less pick a target a have a series of 1 on 1 fights. Additionally, there are generally a lot more monsters in a combat than there used to be, and this really affects things on both sides of the screen. As a general rule, one standard monster (even if its several levels higher than the party) doesn't pose much of a threat to the party, but a "standard" group of monsters a couple levels higher than the party can tear the party to shreds.

This latter point has proven a tricky issue for the DM in one of the games I'm in. He sees our level 7 party take out a level 14 brute and assumes we'll have no problems with 4 level 10 critters. The first encounter was easy, the second we barely survived.

So long story short, learning the rules is not difficult per se, but learning and understanding the system takes a bit more time.
#9
misterarcane
Dec 28, 2009 13:17:53 Indeed, it's faster for a somewhat clever person with no previous DnD experiance to pick up the game then it is for a 3.5 player trying to draw parellels... but the basics take very little time to master, less then a day for the basics, naturally you still want your book around for those 'what does dazed do again?' questions. The basics that you need as a player is all in the PHB(Although there is some errata.) Later books add more options and sometimes new rules to go with those options, you "Need" PHB to play as a player, and you "Need" DMG and a MM in addition to the PHB as a DM.((Although I personaly prefer the way they're handling monsters in later releases rather then the MM1, MM1 tended to give mobs too much HP and too little damage.)) All the other books are expanding options.
#10
brassbaboon
Dec 28, 2009 13:21:21 To move from 3.5e to 4.0e is not moving from one version of a game to an upgraded version of the same game. You really need to approach it as an entirely new game. ENTIRELY new game. Some of the same terms are used and some of the basic concepts are similar, but there is very little that you've learned in 3.5e that carries over to 4e.

You will probably need to buy at least four books if you intend to run a campaign. The DMG, PHB and MM are required. To expand your class options at least the PHB2 is required. It is no coincidence that buying more books and add-ons is encouraged by the game design.

My experience has been that 4e is far more tactically focused than previous versions of D&D. Movement, placement and choice of attacks is very important in 4e. In my case battles seem to take about twice as long as in 3.5e, so learning how to manage your character's resources is very important. There are about a dozen common character-impacting effects that you will need to keep track of. On occasion you will probably have five or more effects on a single character during a fight. We use colored foam circles to keep track of them. Effects include the following: marked, quarried, dazed, immobilized, stunned, bloodied, blinded, cursed etc. At first this can be a bit overwhelming to a 3.5e player.

Among the most obvious differences in 4e and earlier versions of D&D is that the discrepancy between casters and melee fighters has been more or less done away with. Casters no longer suffer from running out of spells at low levels and no longer benefit from becoming god-like at high level. Teamwork tends to be much more important in 4e than in previous versions. Monsters tend to have more hit points and have special powers of their own (goblins, for example, can shift as a minor action, which is an extremely powerful ability in a straight melee fight).

So, read the three main books. Then remind yourself to stop thinking like a 3.5e person and reread them.

I would recommend that you get into a game with some experienced 4e players if possible. That will accelerate your learning considerably.
#11
jetshield
Dec 28, 2009 14:02:38 I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV.

Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times.
#12
kharmin
Dec 28, 2009 14:49:24
I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV.

Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times.

It's a feeling shared by many. I even blogged about it here, if you're curious about my take.

or not

whatever

me shrugs @'s
#13
GelatinousOctahedron
Dec 28, 2009 15:02:20

I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times.

The game plays a lot better than it reads. If you have not actually played it yet, you might want to reserve judgment. Please lets not start another edition war.

To the OP, your group needs 1 copy of the DMG and monster manual. The group needs a couple of copies of the PHB. In our group the DM read the rules sections of the PHB and DMG and some of the the players read through the PHB rules and character creation sections. I had barely skimmed any books since I had not bought any books yet and just picked out dwarf and cleric since no one else had picked the leader role and that looked fun. Pick out a race and class and then go through the sample adventure in the back of the DMG. We all were experienced 3.5 players, with most of playing since basic or 1st ed and by the end of that adventure we had all learned the system well enough to go on without much trouble.

You can also download a sample adventure from the WOTC website for free.
#14
gargs454
Dec 28, 2009 15:14:19
I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV.

Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times.

I had very much the same feeling when reading the 4th Ed books. I kind of thought that they brought in a bulldozer to remove an anthill in many respects.

However, I have to say that after having both played and DM'd it a fair amount now, I do actually like the system. Naturally, there are aspects that I don't like but others that I really like.

As for 4.0 vs. 3.x, I like them both and can't really say that one is better than the other (though 4.0 is easier from a DM's perspective).
#15
kouk
Dec 28, 2009 19:52:58 Nitpick: Kobolds are the ones that have the Shift at will. Goblins only Shift as a reaction when they're missed in melee.

I wouldn't get hung up on "not even all the classes in the PHB1" idea. No edition had "all" the classes and options in a single book, because they came out over time, and that would be a very large book indeed. I do think many of us 3.5 veterans were initially put off by the "lack of options" at release, but there's more there than it seems like and at this point over a year later, there isn't much of a "lack" of content. Going from 80 available books to the first 3 was a bit of a shock, but with joining now you at least would know that there are more options out there.

They made some choices on what to include and what not to include with the PHB1. "New" additions to the PHB 1 are Tieflings, Dragonborn, Eladrin, and the classes Warlock and Warlord.

Each class has a lot more written about it also, in the form of powers. Fluff is sparse though, so add your own.

The PHB1 also includes the magic items this time, and "prestige classes" (Paragon Paths are not the same thing, but similar idea) which takes a chunk of page real estate as well instead of that stuff being in the DMG.

And frankly, they were for the most part not satisfied with the other "omissions" at the time of printing, in terms of mechanics and fluff, but they had enough for the book to get people started.

It's an ongoing game (design) just like every other edition was, so there's no perfection to be had; and supplementary publications always change things.

EDIT: As I recall, the content of classes and races from 2nd edition PHB1 and 3.5 PHB1 was also different, with certain things having been from supplements.

#16
rian_king
Dec 29, 2009 13:52:49
I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV.

Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times.

Have you actually played a game of 4th yet. That could be the first problem. I have been playing 4th since it has come out and it feels like D&D just like 3.5 did, just like 3.0 did, just like AD&D did. The list could go on.

#17
mbelcher
Dec 29, 2009 15:02:18 Really it can easily be played either way. I've been in 3.5 games that felt like a WoW dungeoncrawl, and some that were, well, real D&D. It really depends on how the DM and players make the game run.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Moonflower_Seed Dec 28, 2009 3:24:15	I'll keep it short. I've played 3.5 for a long time and don't really want to invest that much time in learning a new edition. Does 4E take long to pick up?
#2 kouk Dec 28, 2009 3:39:43	What's taking "a long time"? You run into lots of trouble if you just make assumptions based on 3.5 rules rather than carefully reading and rereading the rule book. Just assume that none of your preexisting assumptions held over from 3.5 will be anywhere near the same as how it is in 4th, except by coincidence. Different game, similar themes. A kobold is not a "kobold." (EDIT: 24+ hit points and the determination and means to kill you.) Depending on how open minded you enter into it and how easily you can think about it as a completely different game, you may pick most of it up after a few hours with some help from people who know the rules -- or you may never fully understand it ever. It's a lot bigger change than 3.0 to 3.5 was. Anecdotally, it probably took a couple of months of playing for me to push aside many of my holdover thoughts, but the mechanics of it was mostly the first readthrough. Then I read the PHB again to make sure, which was a good idea since my brain was reading things incorrectly based on assumptions ("Oh, opportunity attack, I get it." -- not quite). EDIT: The biggest thing I think you can do to sour yourself on it in advance though, is to treat it as an "upgrade" to 3.5. It's a different game. Also, if you primarily played casters in 3.5 ... don't start with a caster in 4th edition. Quite a lot of shell shock is possible.
#3 guang Dec 28, 2009 3:58:14	I'd say an emphasis on Kouk's careful reading. Some of it took me quite awhile to really wrap my head around.
#4 Moonflower_Seed Dec 28, 2009 4:35:55	Then how many books do I need to buy? I heard they don't even have all the classes in one Player's Hand Book.
#5 pluisjen Dec 28, 2009 4:42:44	There's the "Essentials", which are the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. Those three will keep you playing for a long time; they contain all the most important rules. Everything else is optional; if you really like to play a Druid, you can pick up Players Handbook II, or if you really want to build a Bravura Warlord, you pick up Martial Power, but you don't need either of them to play a lot of different, interesting characters. Also, since Prestige Classes no longer exist (they are now Paragon Paths) and more focus is put on your actual class, the number of Base Classes has really grown (there must be 20 of them now, I think? and more come out all the time) so they wouldn't fit in a single book anyway. The Players Handbook contains a lot of the Archetypes, and the Players Handbook II fills it out so you have everything you had in the 3.5e PHB I and more. But a lot of the classes have changed, so don't play a Fighter because you used to be a Fighter; it might very well be your old character concept works better in 4e if you use the Ranger class, or the Warlord.
#6 guang Dec 28, 2009 5:41:15	might be worth signing up for insider for a month instead of buying the books....access to the character creator and other tools would cover most basic needs.
#7 kharmin Dec 28, 2009 10:43:29	Starting out, the CB is a free download for level 1-3 and should get you started. Don't start with something overly complex; KISS and learn with the help of other players. I am a long time 2ed DM/player and it took me a while to wrap my head around 4e... what did it for me was to completely ignore previous editions and concepts and take 4e at face value. If you try to have 4e make sense by comparing it to other editions it will take you longer to pick it up. or not whatever /me shrugs @'s
#8 gargs454 Dec 28, 2009 11:21:44	The rules themselves seem pretty user-friendly to me. Essentially, in most (though not every) cases, the powers speak for themselves. (i.e. most everything you need to know is written into the powers, just factor in feats, etc. and you're good to go). Where the learning curve comes in is realizing that its a completely new game which requires different approaches to combat. The biggest thing is that its almost essential that the party work together. Gone are the days where each character can more or less pick a target a have a series of 1 on 1 fights. Additionally, there are generally a lot more monsters in a combat than there used to be, and this really affects things on both sides of the screen. As a general rule, one standard monster (even if its several levels higher than the party) doesn't pose much of a threat to the party, but a "standard" group of monsters a couple levels higher than the party can tear the party to shreds. This latter point has proven a tricky issue for the DM in one of the games I'm in. He sees our level 7 party take out a level 14 brute and assumes we'll have no problems with 4 level 10 critters. The first encounter was easy, the second we barely survived. So long story short, learning the rules is not difficult per se, but learning and understanding the system takes a bit more time.
#9 misterarcane Dec 28, 2009 13:17:53	Indeed, it's faster for a somewhat clever person with no previous DnD experiance to pick up the game then it is for a 3.5 player trying to draw parellels... but the basics take very little time to master, less then a day for the basics, naturally you still want your book around for those 'what does dazed do again?' questions. The basics that you need as a player is all in the PHB(Although there is some errata.) Later books add more options and sometimes new rules to go with those options, you "Need" PHB to play as a player, and you "Need" DMG and a MM in addition to the PHB as a DM.((Although I personaly prefer the way they're handling monsters in later releases rather then the MM1, MM1 tended to give mobs too much HP and too little damage.)) All the other books are expanding options.
#10 brassbaboon Dec 28, 2009 13:21:21	To move from 3.5e to 4.0e is not moving from one version of a game to an upgraded version of the same game. You really need to approach it as an entirely new game. ENTIRELY new game. Some of the same terms are used and some of the basic concepts are similar, but there is very little that you've learned in 3.5e that carries over to 4e. You will probably need to buy at least four books if you intend to run a campaign. The DMG, PHB and MM are required. To expand your class options at least the PHB2 is required. It is no coincidence that buying more books and add-ons is encouraged by the game design. My experience has been that 4e is far more tactically focused than previous versions of D&D. Movement, placement and choice of attacks is very important in 4e. In my case battles seem to take about twice as long as in 3.5e, so learning how to manage your character's resources is very important. There are about a dozen common character-impacting effects that you will need to keep track of. On occasion you will probably have five or more effects on a single character during a fight. We use colored foam circles to keep track of them. Effects include the following: marked, quarried, dazed, immobilized, stunned, bloodied, blinded, cursed etc. At first this can be a bit overwhelming to a 3.5e player. Among the most obvious differences in 4e and earlier versions of D&D is that the discrepancy between casters and melee fighters has been more or less done away with. Casters no longer suffer from running out of spells at low levels and no longer benefit from becoming god-like at high level. Teamwork tends to be much more important in 4e than in previous versions. Monsters tend to have more hit points and have special powers of their own (goblins, for example, can shift as a minor action, which is an extremely powerful ability in a straight melee fight). So, read the three main books. Then remind yourself to stop thinking like a 3.5e person and reread them. I would recommend that you get into a game with some experienced 4e players if possible. That will accelerate your learning considerably.
#11 jetshield Dec 28, 2009 14:02:38	I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV. Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times.
#12 kharmin Dec 28, 2009 14:49:24	I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV. Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times. It's a feeling shared by many. I even blogged about it here, if you're curious about my take. or not whatever me shrugs @'s
#13 GelatinousOctahedron Dec 28, 2009 15:02:20	I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times. The game plays a lot better than it reads. If you have not actually played it yet, you might want to reserve judgment. Please lets not start another edition war. To the OP, your group needs 1 copy of the DMG and monster manual. The group needs a couple of copies of the PHB. In our group the DM read the rules sections of the PHB and DMG and some of the the players read through the PHB rules and character creation sections. I had barely skimmed any books since I had not bought any books yet and just picked out dwarf and cleric since no one else had picked the leader role and that looked fun. Pick out a race and class and then go through the sample adventure in the back of the DMG. We all were experienced 3.5 players, with most of playing since basic or 1st ed and by the end of that adventure we had all learned the system well enough to go on without much trouble. You can also download a sample adventure from the WOTC website for free.
#14 gargs454 Dec 28, 2009 15:14:19	I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV. Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times. I had very much the same feeling when reading the 4th Ed books. I kind of thought that they brought in a bulldozer to remove an anthill in many respects. However, I have to say that after having both played and DM'd it a fair amount now, I do actually like the system. Naturally, there are aspects that I don't like but others that I really like. As for 4.0 vs. 3.x, I like them both and can't really say that one is better than the other (though 4.0 is easier from a DM's perspective).
#15 kouk Dec 28, 2009 19:52:58	Nitpick: Kobolds are the ones that have the Shift at will. Goblins only Shift as a reaction when they're missed in melee. I wouldn't get hung up on "not even all the classes in the PHB1" idea. No edition had "all" the classes and options in a single book, because they came out over time, and that would be a very large book indeed. I do think many of us 3.5 veterans were initially put off by the "lack of options" at release, but there's more there than it seems like and at this point over a year later, there isn't much of a "lack" of content. Going from 80 available books to the first 3 was a bit of a shock, but with joining now you at least would know that there are more options out there. They made some choices on what to include and what not to include with the PHB1. "New" additions to the PHB 1 are Tieflings, Dragonborn, Eladrin, and the classes Warlock and Warlord. Each class has a lot more written about it also, in the form of powers. Fluff is sparse though, so add your own. The PHB1 also includes the magic items this time, and "prestige classes" (Paragon Paths are not the same thing, but similar idea) which takes a chunk of page real estate as well instead of that stuff being in the DMG. And frankly, they were for the most part not satisfied with the other "omissions" at the time of printing, in terms of mechanics and fluff, but they had enough for the book to get people started. It's an ongoing game (design) just like every other edition was, so there's no perfection to be had; and supplementary publications always change things. EDIT: As I recall, the content of classes and races from 2nd edition PHB1 and 3.5 PHB1 was also different, with certain things having been from supplements.
#16 rian_king Dec 29, 2009 13:52:49	I'm grinding through the 4e books now. I find it helpful to think of it less like D&D and more like "tabletop WoW dungeoncrawling". YMMV. Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm not terribly impressed with 4e. Admittedly, it seems to address some issues, but it feels too much like a whole new game to have the D&D title. I won't make a final decision until I've played it a few times. Have you actually played a game of 4th yet. That could be the first problem. I have been playing 4th since it has come out and it feels like D&D just like 3.5 did, just like 3.0 did, just like AD&D did. The list could go on.
#17 mbelcher Dec 29, 2009 15:02:18	Really it can easily be played either way. I've been in 3.5 games that felt like a WoW dungeoncrawl, and some that were, well, real D&D. It really depends on how the DM and players make the game run.