Question 1
My main complaint (and one other person in the group that plays) is that the DM plays his character (same level as the PC's), as well as another character that is ~ 3 levels higher than all the PC's. He constantly has the 2nd character that he plays doing absurd killing blows and such ( killing a manticore in one shot by pushing a piller on him). Also it seems that a lot of the RP in centered around his character and the 2nd one he started playing (a NPC that we rescued from a dungeon - that was a former love interest of his).
Is this normal? Does the DM even play a character most of the time? ( I was under the impression that the DM may play a character from time to time if a spot neede to be filled, but normally he just did everything else during the campaign)
Question 2
How often should we as PC's be getting gear / new weapons? We got some weapons / armor at level 3, we are now level 9 and have not gotten anything else other than 2 to 3 magical items each.
Question 3
In your average campain / dnd session, what is the usual ratio of RP to Action? We play one night a week for 3 to 4 hours, and have literally gone 12 hours with nothing but RP (except for 5 minutes of fighting, that involved killing one wolf in the forest).
* i'm sure this is not something that can be easily answered since the way things are played probly don't have many guidelines.
*** on an average night where we meet for 3.5 hours, we will spend 2.5 hours of rp and 1 hour of actually fighting / walking around doing stuff
Question 4
After 3 months of playing, should we only be level 9?
~ 15 sessions, roughly 45 hours of time playing
Q2. Depends on the game. Provided its fun to play, and you hit and can get hit on reasonable numbers (4e D&D that would be between 8 and 12 on a D20), then this doesn't have to be an issue. It's more of a style thing.
Q3. Depends on the game. Some people like lots of RP, some prefer only 10 minutes of it between each battle.
Q4. In 4E, if this was all combat, and you managed to complete ~40 encounters in this time (which would be practical), then you would have gained ~ 5 levels. So it seems reasonable. But, guess what? It depends on the game.
Item 1 is a problem for a lot of players to deal with.
Other than that, It looks to me like you have gained enough experience with the game that you know better what ind of game you would prefer. Time to start looking round for other groups - perhaps there's a local club you could go to?
Q1, no its not normal, and when you see vitriol poured onto "DMPCs" on these forums, it's this kind of DM-as-favoured-player-character that's being referred to.
Q2. Depends on the game. Provided its fun to play, and you hit and can get hit on reasonable numbers (4e D&D that would be between 8 and 12 on a D20), then this doesn't have to be an issue. It's more of a style thing.
Q3. Depends on the game. Some people like lots of RP, some prefer only 10 minutes of it between each battle.
Q4. In 4E, if this was all combat, and you managed to complete ~40 encounters in this time (which would be practical), then you would have gained ~ 5 levels. So it seems reasonable. But, guess what? It depends on the game.
Item 1 is a problem for a lot of players to deal with.
Other than that, It looks to me like you have gained enough experience with the game that you know better what ind of game you would prefer. Time to start looking round for other groups - perhaps there's a local club you could go to?
In response to slobo:
Q1: thanks, i wanted to make sure that it wasn't just me getting annoyed at the way he was doing things, that i would have some sort of legit complaint. (its quite annoying for each person to take ~ 2 - 3 minutes per round of combat - 5 pc's, then have the dm take 2 - 3 for his character, then 2 - 3 for his character #2, then mobs....)
Q2: Thanks for explaining that, it definately makes more sense to me know. I'd say to hit we as PC's are needing in the 10 - 12 range vs normally on minions, and 12 - 14 hitting bosses.
Q3: yeah, seems just me and 1 other of the 5 pc's arent as big of a fan of random RP... ie: we go to an inn to eat food, it can literally take 45 minutes of time b/c of the RP that happens while in there (and its not even involved in our campaign.) 45 minutes out of 3 to 3.5 hour session on imaginary characters just eating seems odd to me...... LOL
Q4: ty for the info, i guess it just depends on the game and the DM like you said!
Q1: DMs typically play the supporting cast of the game, but not a central character the way the Players do. Some DMs can pull off playing a PC in his own game without causing problems, but DMPC's in the hands of many DMs are a recipe for disaster.
Q2: In general, I like to give out some sort of cool loot for every character at least once per level, if not every session. But, I guess it depends on the DM and the game.
Q3: Depends on the group and the style of story... I tend to favor RP over combat myself, but even then, I think that providing something for the players to throw their dice at helps to keep things exciting, even if it's Skill rolls or challenges, rather than combat. And, even combat has it's place in games heavy on role-play. 45 minutes of eating food can be fun if something interesting happens and everyone is having fun.
For what it's worth, one of the more fun game sessions I was ever in spent about two hours of game time on the first day of the campaign on lunch. It was a game loosely based on the story/movie Starship Troopers with a cast of about 20 colonial marine PCs. During that meal, the PCs got into a spontaneous food-fight; the DM didn't expect it, but just let everyone roll with it for a while, and it gave everyone a chance to establish their characters and how they interact with each other. It was followed up with a rather dramatic moment of mood whiplash where the commanding officer entered the cafeteria, ordered everyone to attention, and then debriefed them on their suicide mission; I think everyone involved had fun, and the scene seemed to work. Role-playing lunch could be a couple hours of fun, or it could be 45 minutes of boredom, depending on the group and the DM.
Q4: Depends, but Level 9 after about 15 sessions actually sounds reasonable, possibly even a little fast, to me.
From what you described, this could be fun in the hands of a skilled DM, but is probably going to be an exercise in tedium as you are stuck being a captive audience to a lot of exciting things happening to the DMPC, while his PC side-kicks get to eat dinner. Yikes - good luck with that!
Question 1
Is this normal? Does the DM even play a character most of the time? ( I was under the impression that the DM may play a character from time to time if a spot neede to be filled, but normally he just did everything else during the campaign)
Normal, no. Good, no. Advisable, no. Relatively common among bad GMs? Yes.
It's called a "DMPC" - an NPC that the DM had made the grievous error of treating like a protagonist. It's a sign that the DM is incompetent and the game isn't worth playing in.
Q2- You should get a new magic item of the approperiate level, every single level. Nothing new for 6 levels is very unusual and something to mention to the DM.
Q3- This depends on the group. It is also a personal preference thing. Try asking the DM for more or less to suite your taste.
Q4- Sure. There is really no real time to out of game timeframe that depends on the group. If you would prefer to level faster, ask the DM.
Q2- You should get a new magic item of the approperiate level, every single level. Nothing new for 6 levels is very unusual and something to mention to the DM.
"Should" is relative - and the standard parcels give out one item less than the number of party members, so that a party of 5 will get 4 items each in five levels.
But yeah.
"Should" is relative - and the standard parcels give out one item less than the number of party members, so that a party of 5 will get 4 items each in five levels.
For the record this is the actual rule. It is also super unfun to be the only guy who doesn't get a magic item that level while everyone else has some cool new toy. So my post is really more of a "Should" than a "the rules say", even though I wrote it with the "the rules say" tone.
"Should" is relative - and the standard parcels give out one item less than the number of party members, so that a party of 5 will get 4 items each in five levels.
For the record this is the actual rule. It is also super unfun to be the only guy who doesn't get a magic item that level while everyone else has some cool new toy. So my post is really more of a "Should" than a "the rules say", even though I wrote it with the "the rules say" tone.
There's also the other treasure - in practice, after the first few levels, I've found that almost everyone gets something they want almost every time - and when they don't, it's because there's nothing they want.
In general though, especially with new DMs, this will not work out in a way the players find fun. It's okay for the DM to want to have fun too, but there are other ways to do it.
2) Depends on the game. If you're all alley-dwelling rogues plotting on a big score while trying to defend your territory from other gangs, you're not likely to come across many magic items at all. Putting them in anyway will look weird. If you're all the king's men, sent on an important mission to rescue the princess then, hey, maybe the king will spend a lot of his resources on making sure you succeed and you'll be fully decked out in completely level-inappropriate gear by the time you hit second level.
In my opinion though, however many items you guys acquire, it should be (roughly) equal for each player. If the DMPCs are getting more, or one player is getting more, this is something to talk to the DM about.
3) Again, depends on the game. Sounds like your DM really likes his RP.
The solution to this is NOT to sabotage his ****. Don't go "well my character starts throwing food" or "my character sits in complete silence throughout the meal" or "my character refuses to enter the inn."
The proper solution is to talk to the DM. Maybe after the session he might want feedback (I know I do), this would be a good time to bring it up. "Well I thought that inn scene was rather boring. It didn't seem to move the plot forward and I didn't have fun, so what was the reason for it?"
He might realise that the reason for it was to have character exposition on his DMPCs, or to fill time because he didn't write the rest of the adventure yet. Who knows?
4) This seems fine. It all depends on your combat vs RP ratio, since you might get some xp for RP, but it's usually not as much as an encounter. So if you spend 90% of your time RPing, you're not going to level as quickly. It still seems like a fine progression rate to me. A campaign can take years, even if you play every week, and still have characters at level 20 or so.
1 ) DMPCs are no fun. The only time I've seen it handled correctly was when the DMPC was temporary, the captain of a ship, so when combat broke out he had to drive the ship and couldn't move from his spot or cast/do stuff.
... that's pretty much the OPPOSITE of a DMPC. He didn't do things the PCs do, and left the PCs to hold the spotlight?
That's an NPC, even if he was a recurring and/or long-running one.
However, if the DM isn't finding ways to keep the spotlight on the Players' characters even when his own characters are involved in the scene, then DMPC-style problems are sure to follow.
For what it's worth, cut from nearly the same evil cloth as DMPCs are PCs in positions of authority that provide long-winded exposition to PCs who didn't ask for information and have no choice but to listen, villains that provide Hannibal Lectures to captive-audience PCs, and the sort of exotic and arty campaign settings that require more than a couple paragraphs to explain....
Q2- You should get a new magic item of the approperiate level, every single level. Nothing new for 6 levels is very unusual and something to mention to the DM.
Not quite. If the Dm is following the treasure guidleines, any PC should gett a new item ALMOST every level. A party of five PCs should reeive four items in the course of a level.
Though Nothing for six levels is indeed quite weird.
Question 1
My main complaint (and one other person in the group that plays) is that the DM plays his character (same level as the PC's), as well as another character that is ~ 3 levels higher than all the PC's. He constantly has the 2nd character that he plays doing absurd killing blows and such ( killing a manticore in one shot by pushing a piller on him). Also it seems that a lot of the RP in centered around his character and the 2nd one he started playing (a NPC that we rescued from a dungeon - that was a former love interest of his).
Is this normal? Does the DM even play a character most of the time? ( I was under the impression that the DM may play a character from time to time if a spot neede to be filled, but normally he just did everything else during the campaign)
No. The DM should be handling NPCs, not PCs. If your party is short and needs a boost, use companion characters (see DMG2) or just adjust encounters accordingly (I've run plenty of games with only 2 players before, it's not that hard). Any NPCs should be with the party only temporarily and should not be taking the spotlight except when the story dictates.
What you described are the exact reasons most people hate DMPCs. The only time I have used a DMPC was during a campaign when we switched DMs mid-game (and later switched back), so the entire party, including my PC was moved into the new game. However, I tried to keep the PC in the background. He helped during combat, but at other times he generally only responded when directly asked for input by a player, when the party was stuck and needed something to move the game along, or for specific plot points. In fact, I even had him break away from the party for periods of time and conduct "background" quests that would effect the campaign, but not take away from what the PCs were doing.
Question 2
How often should we as PC's be getting gear / new weapons? We got some weapons / armor at level 3, we are now level 9 and have not gotten anything else other than 2 to 3 magical items each.
I believe the DMG has the guidelines for what gear you should have at what levels (I'll give you a hint, 2-3 items at level 9 is too low). This is not a strict requirement and is subject to DM discretion, but the game balance is based on the PCs having that gear. If that gear is not being provided, it should either have been made clear that the game is going to be deliberately more difficult than normal or he should be using inherent bonuses and boons (which I doubt from the sounds of it) to make up for the shortfall.
Question 3
In your average campain / dnd session, what is the usual ratio of RP to Action? We play one night a week for 3 to 4 hours, and have literally gone 12 hours with nothing but RP (except for 5 minutes of fighting, that involved killing one wolf in the forest).
* i'm sure this is not something that can be easily answered since the way things are played probly don't have many guidelines.
*** on an average night where we meet for 3.5 hours, we will spend 2.5 hours of rp and 1 hour of actually fighting / walking around doing stuff
That depends entirely on the group. I've had entire game sessions of pure RP go on that were entirely player-driven. I've also had players say "I want to roll dice, when do we get to kill something?". The ultimate goal is to have fun. If fun is not being had, make it known. I've had to adjust games based on the players before. There's only so far a DM can go without compromising the campaign, but there should be some happy medium that everyone is at least comfortable with.
Question 4
After 3 months of playing, should we only be level 9?
~ 15 sessions, roughly 45 hours of time playing
Again, that is entirely dependent on the group. If you are facing one encounter after another, you'll level up fast. If you are doing lots of RP, maybe not. Personally, I like to hand out XP awards for good RP, especially when the RP overcomes a challenge or conflict, but maybe this DM is different. If you want to advance faster, take it up with the DM. It could be that he's not giving you level-appropriate encounters, not giving you enough encounters, doesn't understand proper XP awards, the DMPC is hogging some of that XP, or maybe he is deliberately slowing advancement down.
I agree with everyone else though, except in very rare circumstances the DM should not being playing as a PC let alone 2.
Q3: yeah, seems just me and 1 other of the 5 pc's arent as big of a fan of random RP... ie: we go to an inn to eat food, it can literally take 45 minutes of time b/c of the RP that happens while in there (and its not even involved in our campaign.) 45 minutes out of 3 to 3.5 hour session on imaginary characters just eating seems odd to me...... LOL
I'm going to draw some lines through this...
There should not be that big a chunk of *random* RP in the game - if it's there, there should be some reason for it. (Which will be something that happened while you were eating - not the fact that you were eating, unless there was an attempt to poison you or something like that.) But that reason might not be part of the main plotline, and might not become apparent to the players for some time.
With a good DM, the reason might not even be apparent to the DM at the time the chunk of RP occurs - but there WILL be a reason, eventually.
With a good DM that buys into the 'shared narrative' notion of game play - as someone else put it, "As DM I am not the only storyteller at the table, I'm just the one with the falling rocks" - the players could later invent overheard stuff and retroactively insert it into the time at the restaurant. 'That temple - the one with the red door - didn't we overhear something last night, while we were at dinner, about a meeting with a priest at the Red Door?'
All that said... from what you say about your game, I seriously doubt your DM is good enough to make this sort of thing work.
I am also new to d&d. My party and the dm are very experienced. We are playing in a world that was created from our dm with a huge made by hand map of all the kingdoms and tons of historical facts. The world is amazing but with a small problem. The gold is little and magic items are REALLY difficult to find. I would love to have a magic ring of anything but raising 10.000 gold pieces for it is just a dream for me. I read in books all the magic items available for a wizard and almost cry!
So remember,when you think you don't have enough money or items...it could be worse!
Anesidora the wizard with 58 gold coins in her pocket.
In terms of leveling, that's a pretty good pace. Our game has been running for two years (with plenty of breaks) but we just hit level 12 two sessions ago. Also your party is very light on magic items; the game assumes you at least have a decent magic weapon and armor roughly equivalent to your level/tier. Having few magic items isn't an issue if your DM consciously takes this to mind when designing encounters, though. So it isn't an issue unless your party is having some serious problems overcoming a fight.
12 hours with nothing but roleplay seems a little off, but isn't unheard. Do you mean there's been no dice rolls at all, or challenging social, or non-combat events? Spending so much time on inconsequential "fluff" rp seems a little odd to me, especially with such regularity.
I have to agree with most people's opinions regarding the DM. He comes across as a novice that's more interested in telling his story, than engaging the party in fun adventures where they're the heroes.