Just looking for some thoughts and opinions regarding a game Im about to be in. We were supposed to be doing a low level capaign but at the last minute two of the players convinced the DM to do a high level one. And I've never really started out at lvl 25 before.
So, I'm struggling to create a level 25 character that fits in with the group. The game is taking place in Rokugan from L5R and so far we have a wizard, a psionic, two monks, and a scout. Basically any 3.5 books are allowed, and any race as long as I can come up with fitting backstories and make the character work...
I was orginally making a Gith Ninja, but my computer crashed and I lost the PDF charactersheet.
Thoughts? Comments? Recommendations on making a high level character? I'm not out to be the most badass person to ever walk the world , just want a solid character that still fits.
Thanks for input.
But I dont know much about the classes up at that level. Or much about multiclassing with that much to work with.
Also, the gulf between tiers only gets wider at epic levels. A fifth-tier class like the ninja is going to have a hard time having as much fun as something higher-tier like a spellcaster, manifester, or martial adept. Sure, you'll be awesomely sneaky, but it's easy enough to make a psion or sorcerer or something that duplicates a ninja's shtick and does a lot more besides.
Multiclassing is therefore a really good idea. You could take 17-20 levels of a spellcasting class, like a wizard or something, and then 5-8 levels of dips into other classes with interesting abilities--rogue for the huge skill points at level 1, fighter for BAB and high-level bonus feats, some kind of martial adept for powerful maneuvers, factotum for whatever it does, and so on. Your spellcasting will be comparable to a single-classed caster's, but you'll also have a bunch of tasty miscellaneous abilities that they don't.
An even stronger trick would be to make use of hybrid prestige classes, like the Mystic Theurge (arcane/divine), Cerebremancer (arcane/psionic), Jade Phoenix Mage (arcane/martial), Anima Mage (arcane/pact magic), etc. Normally they're a little lackluster because you end up a full spell level behind a single-classed caster, but at epic levels that doesn't matter any more. If you take five levels of each base class and fifteen levels of the hybrid prestige class (you can advance prestige classes past level 10 once you hit epic), you'll end up with 20 levels of spellcasting from each base class. You'll have a harder time getting spell slots of level 10+, but those aren't terribly necessary anyway.
In any case, you can improve on that even more by taking a combination that has multiple hybrid classes (druid/any arcane with Arcane Hierophant and Mystic Theurge) or cares more about caster level than class level (incarnum, pact, and martial classes, plus psionics to some degree). The faster you can get level 9 spells/powers/vestiges/maneuvers/etc., the more space you have to do neat things with your build.
For instance, a fun ninja-ish build might be:
Rogue 1 / Cleric 7 / Swordsage 2 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 13 / anything 2
It features level 9 martial maneuvers and cleric spells; solid attacks, saves, and skills; Sneak Attack; and the ability to trade uses of Turn Undead for various interesting benefits. The Shadow Hand discipline can do everything a ninja does, only better, and the cleric spells give you a ton of extra utility.
The build also has a lot of room for customization: you can replace some of those cleric levels with any prestige class that advances divine casting, and you've got two more free levels at the end that you can use for anything. I like three levels of Shadowbane Stalker, an extra level of Rogue, and maybe one of Master of Nine or Agent Retriever.
The only requirements are that you must worship Wee Jas the Rokugan equivalent of Wee Jas, and you have to have a stance and a strike from the Devoted Spirit discipline before you take Ruby Knight Vindicator. I'd recommend the feat Martial Stance (thicket of blades) at level 9 for the stance, and a Novice Devoted Spirit Amulet for the strike.
you do have enough extra levels to make mystic thuerge usable, but I'd personally go for classes/prestige classes that give you mettle(4ish level dip in hexmage or paladin) and evasion (from all kinds of sources)
I've really only seen 3 builds work at epic (i'd be worried about your monks) 20+caster level caster, a charger barbarian with deathless rage, and a mostly non damage heavy skill monkey (you should be able to get some skills between +40 and +60 at 25).
and i'm sure i'll get a ton of responses on how other builds work fine... but thats all i've ever personally seen work.
Also any clerics or paladins will have to have an extensive back story explianing their devotion to their chosen diety.
Well I'm kind of new to the whole caster thing. But on another note... the DM is a stickler for Roleplaying over Rollplaying. So all characters will have to have a good backstory as to why they have each of their classes etc.
The problem with that is the structure breaks down at epic levels. You have characters in the same party same level that will automatically hit/succeed on anything other than a 1, and characters that can't succeed unless they roll a natural 20, so the only way be sure you aren't useless is to have one or two things you autohit (spells with no SR and high dcs, or very high base attack, or very very high skill checks)
The only way around that is to have your dm have a different dc for each character instead of having a fixed stat. (ie the wizard needs to roll a 15 on the die of his tumble check because hes not physical, while the rouge needs to roll a 8 or 9 because he is physical, ignoring the fact that the wizard has a total of +2 and the rogue has a +23)
3.x diverges too much, and the only way not have a hard time with everything, is become very very specialized, or house rule around it.
As I hinted at the begining I'm not looking to be the guy in the party that throws out the most damage or even to be the most optimized version of whatever class I'm playing. The DMs not really a combat person, on to top it off the other 5 members of the party already have their characters made and are extremely powerful.
I was just looking for opinions on stuff thats decent to play around that level but would still plausibly fit into the setting. I 've never really played much over level 15, since I'm military by the time a game gets up and going I move, then at my next base I have to scrounge a group together and basically knock the dust off everyone by starting back at lower levels. (Or for example the DM wants to play Pathfinder or some weird house rules so we all have to adapt)
Please tell me you're playing as the Fortunes or the Nine Kami or something.
Nothing good can come of this. The best advice I can give is to get out while you still can. And smack the players responsible for this. AND the GM who listened to them.
If you insist on going through with it, go have a look at the old 3.5 CO boards and find something incalculably broken from there that you can use to instantly win the campaign so that you can put this foolishness behind you and get back to a real game.
Your party's scout might have good skills, sure, but there are spells that duplicate and improve upon just about any skill you can name. Even if you don't optimize, casters are just better.
By 'caster', I mean, of course, anything that has spells, powers, invocations, soulmelds, vestiges, maneuvers, mysteries, etc. As long as it's got nine levels (or sometimes four tiers), it's good. And because of good old Stormwind, you can be sure that any class can be reflavored to work in any setting, and with many concepts.
If you're new to casters, you might prefer a spontaneous-casting sort of class, like a sorcerer, psion, shugenja, or martial adept. You can pick out a bunch of spells you like at character creation, and then not worry about it ever again. Add something with combat and skillmonkey abilities to that, and you'll have a very flexible gish that has something fun to do in pretty much every situation.
There's just so much that you can do that it's kind of hard to give you specific suggestions. Do you have any ideas about the sort of character you'd like to play beyond "maybe ranged" and "maybe talky"? Are you thinking "wizened sage" or "ascended spirit" or "laser samurai" or what?
Wait wait wait... you're running a 3.5 Epic-level game in Rokugan? That's got to be the worst... I, this.... I don't even...
Please tell me you're playing as the Fortunes or the Nine Kami or something.
Nothing good can come of this. The best advice I can give is to get out while you still can. And smack the players responsible for this. AND the GM who listened to them.
If you insist on going through with it, go have a look at the old 3.5 CO boards and find something incalculably broken from there that you can use to instantly win the campaign so that you can put this foolishness behind you and get back to a real game.
Yeah my point exactly ... and why I'm more or less being stubborn in the character creation...
Actually each player is either the leader of one of the clans, or was chosen by him to represent the clan or something I kinda zoned out after the one guy argued his way into getting to play a mindflayer in Rokugan...
I just wanted to casually play some DnD cause I havent in years due to a tour in Afghanistan, and now being in Korea. So when some people I knew mentioned a group I was like cool ...then when I got there they changed to this campaign instead of the DM using a campaign world he's had put together for like... 8 years.
I mean its cool that the DM got lucky and Japan's his next duty station ... and its cool that some people get extremely into the Fuedal Japan lore ...I know most of it myself ...But trying to force the 3.5 ruleset and classes with some house rules into L5R Rokugan ... I mean technically we should all be humans then...but here we are with a Gith Scout, a Mindflayer, and a Storm Giant monk...
*Le Sigh*
Yeah my point exactly ... and why I'm more or less being stubborn in the character creation...
Wise of you.
Actually each player is either the leader of one of the clans, or was chosen by him to represent the clan or something
So I was close with the Kami thing. Still a horrible, horrible, horrible idea.
I kinda zoned out after the one guy argued his way into getting to play a mindflayer in Rokugan...
Run while you can. This only ends in misery and despair.
I just wanted to casually play some DnD cause I havent in years due to a tour in Afghanistan, and now being in Korea.
This is not the game you're looking for. < /obiwan >
So when some people I knew mentioned a group I was like cool ...then when I got there they changed to this campaign instead of the DM using a campaign world he's had put together for like... 8 years.
That's not a group, it's a bunch of drunken frat boys. So far what you're describing is basically the archetypcal dysfunctional gaming group doomed to failure.
I mean its cool that the DM got lucky and Japan's his next duty station ... and its cool that some people get extremely into the Fuedal Japan lore ...I know most of it myself
Trust me when I say that this has nothing do to with L5R.
...But trying to force the 3.5 ruleset and classes with some house rules into L5R Rokugan
No, that actually works fine. In point of fact, WotC owned the rights to L5R for a little while and the old 3.0 Oriental Adventures book was based loosely on Rokugan.
... I mean technically we should all be humans then...but here we are with a Gith Scout, a Mindflayer, and a Storm Giant monk...
This game is doomed...
*Le Sigh*
...and it sounds like you know it.
...But trying to force the 3.5 ruleset and classes with some house rules into L5R Rokugan
No, that actually works fine. In point of fact, WotC owned the rights to L5R for a little while and the old 3.0 Oriental Adventures book was based loosely on Rokugan.
Allow me to clarify on the only point you disputed:
I know Oriental Adventures is based on L5R and that WotC bought it and then it was bought back off them.
But without going into detials, let me assure you the house rules and adaptations made to allow "everyone to play the character they want" distorts it to the point its not really fitting..... refer to the gith / storm giants / mindflayers etc etc.
But I was more or less here to learn a little more about higher level characters from people, rather than just reading books etc.... Not to just complain that this game is going to ....
Yeah.
I'm not too familiar with L5R; what's so horrible about this game the OP's getting into?
There's nothing from the official setting that will fit with the characters and challenge level.
That shouldn't be a major problem. D&D 3.x at levels above 20 is not a roll game, the mechanics break down (similar to, and about as unavoidable as time and space breaking down in the vicinity of a black hole). If you can extract some fun from other parts of the game, than all is good.
I admit, one of my favorite DMing moments was when I ran The Quicksilver Hourglass for the last RL group that I had. (It remains, to my knowledge, the only published 3.x epic-level adventure to appear in Dungeon, being designed for L30 characters.) The gravity room with Katamari ball was brutal and killed most of the party. I dimly recall the dragon demigoddess burning one of its wishes to conjure popcorn to enjoy the spectacle.
Feats: 1 - Point Blank Shot, 3 - Precise Shot, 6 - Swift Hunter, 9 - Improved Skirmish, 12 - Greater Manyshot, 15 - True Believer (Ehlonna or the equivalent for the campaign), 18 - Quick Reconnoiter, 21 - Bane of Enemies, 24 - Uncanny Accuracy
Skills: Max out Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Survival, Knowledge (nature), and (assuming you have at least a 12 int base) Knowledge (dungeoneering); all these skills are very useful to a party that doesn't have a martial skill monkey.
Favored Enemies: Giant +4, Abberration +4, Lawful Outsider +4, *Undead +6, Humanoid (human) +4, Fey +2 (bold = potential pc v pc boost)
Alternate Class Feature: Give up your worthless animal companion, and take Solitary Hunter instead; this lets you add your favored enemy bonus to your attack rolls against favored enemies in addition to the normal bonuses.
Required Equipment:
1st- combine a Quiver of Eholonna with Quiver of Energy 4 times, as well as adding the magic of Quiver of Anariel to it for infinite adamantine arrows that add 1d6 fire, cold, electricity, and acid damage when they hit; and give you basically a bag of holding for your bow(s) and other tools and weapons. The cost for doing this follows this formula: Most Expensive Item + 1.5x the cost of everything else; since its an epic campaign you should be starting with a ton of gold.
2nd- buy about 8 Raptor Arrows; the very reason you took the True Believer feat. Each arrow is 6,006gp each, but I would ask how much for cold-iron versions. These arrows, because of your feat, gain the Bane quality against every enemy you shoot them at, so that means you now have bane against everything, not just favored enemies.
3rd- buy a Composite Longbow (with your strength mod including a strength boosting item) +5, of Splitting and Exit Wound. Splitting can be found in Champion's of Ruin, Exit Wound is in the Complete Warrior.
4th- +5 dex tome
5th- belt of magnificence +6, 200,000gp; Miniatures Handbook, +6 enhancement to all attributes.
6th- 5x5 or 5x10 flying carpet, trust me.
7th- Bracers of Armor +8 combined with Bracers of Greater Archery.
8th and beyond- pretty much whatever else you want.
This character, on average, does over 40 damage with each arrow strike... and splitting simply doubles the number of strikes you get, plus they all require an attack roll so they all add your skirmish damage, favored enemy damage, and all of them can crit. Swift Hunter feat lets you add skirmish damage against favored enemies that are immune to crits. The flying carpet lets you move up to 40 feet with a free action command, triggering your Improved Skirmish damage on your full attack with rapid shot, or your Greater Manyshot.
This build is basically the bowmaster. Flavor it however you want, it is basic.