Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 negzero Jul 22, 2009 22:26:23	So me and 4 others have gotten together to start a campaign. We all selected our classes and even when suggested, we are still defenderless. Giving us a group make up of: Taclord Cleric Wizard Sorcerer Ranger And as can be expected we have problems with damage done to so many people, till the point we have full HP characters being one-shoot into negatives and this is just our first quest (Barrow of the Ogre King). Our DM feels like 6 members will be to hard for him to deal with (he not very good at organizing) so thats option is out. Leaving me to wonder if theres some hope for the group to pull this out without a character dying/leaving and being replaced Note: Everyone in this group is fairly new to 4E
#2 corvusdrake Jul 22, 2009 22:30:38	You will rarely find me saying what I'm about to say. Wait for it....wait for it.... This is entirely, 100% the DM's fault Cut and paste it people, it's a historic day. Really, ANY party construct can function just fine if the DM knows how to angle the game to work with the party's composition. Your DM being disorganized is the big problem; if the DM can't organize, they can't leave room for their own improv work. In other words, a disorganized DM can't do their job properly.
#3 negzero Jul 22, 2009 22:34:01	Well the DM is trying to get better at organizing (the group is made of several programmers, so we will be having computer running the DM job basically) Edit: Also 2 guys made there classes at the last second so the DM can't really be blame for not having the quest set up for our make-up.
#4 vebrandsson Jul 22, 2009 22:47:08	First off I assume you mean ranger not hunter. I must ask what build is the ranger, because if its bow the leaders may be your only melee, that'll work so long as the wizard and sorcerer can keep them out of their blasts. Two leaders can give you the healing resources to keep up with out a defender but managing melee with this group may prove difficult, consult your DM and make sure he knows to design the encounters around the party, that's how 4e is supposed to work anyway.
#5 negzero Jul 22, 2009 22:55:42	Yes it suppose to mean ranger (I don't believe that a ranger should have a melee build you know the whole RANGE being part of your name in all, also WoW screwed up my mind (you know its just like heroin ;) )). Ranger should be 2blader since he tends to be in melee for the most part.
#6 dark_harrier Jul 22, 2009 23:06:42	Ouch, people getting one-shotted? That's a bit of a mess. Five people, but no defender should be doable. Can I ask how many of your characters are front-liners? Wizard summons can give defender presence, and zones like cloud of daggers should cut off paths for enemies, either making the enemies easy pickings for aoes, or keeping them from coming all at once, your Sorcerer and Ranger should have a couple of ways of getting out of nasty messes. With 2 leaders, things shouldn't be a problem, but it sounds like you are getting really big, really bad things thrown at you, but that makes a lot of healing rather important. As another note, if the taclord is the only melee character, things could get problematic. Mobility seems like it's going to be key for this group a lot more than others.
#7 negzero Jul 22, 2009 23:29:38	Front liners are Warlord,Ranger and sometimes the Cleric. Wizard am pretty sure he doesn't have summon Fire Warrior in fact(now that I think of it he didn't selected build because of how late he was on it) hes the last second so am not really sure what he is. And the DM make sure the enemies are glued to either me or ranger when there in a group to make the Sorcerer fairly useless without killing one of us.
#8 negzero Jul 23, 2009 0:25:10	Side note: Am close to leveling up and thinking of either taking Toughness, or defender multiclass feat to help out my party, or some other feat that would help me be a pseudo-defender and switching out my Furious Smash to some other at will
#9 Arcane_Guyver Jul 23, 2009 2:12:58	How did Mr. Slavicsek put it? "If no one chooses to be a defender, the monsters will choose for you." This is entirely, 100% the DM's fault Gotta love this. It's the DM's fault that the party is getting chewed up by a premade adventure, eh? I think this has more to do with players still working on that learning curve. IMX, 4e can be kind of brutal early on when people are still figuring things out. ... More constructively, beef up your defenses (taking armor Proficiency feats), have some characters try the Toughness feat, and have the leaders focus more on healing & temp hp powers. Clerics and warlords can both be pretty tough in melee, they just can't [Mark] targets to keep them from bashing the wizard's face in.
#10 DevoDog Jul 23, 2009 7:44:34	To the OP, there really shouldn't be a problem with your party makeup OR the DM not tailoring the encounters to your party makeup. I'm also trying to decipher your comment about full HP and 1-shotted to negative HP. Were you saying that your players ARE getting 1-shotted? I'm wondering then if you've calculated HP wrong (adding your CON modifier instead of your CON SCORE). A party can function without a Defender, especially when you have 2 Leaders like your group.
#11 Wyrd_One Jul 23, 2009 8:26:00	I will add to the voices saying the party make up can be worked around. In my group there is just the DM and two of us, and we each play 2 characters. I play a Psion and an Avenger, while the other player has a Cleric and a Sorceress. So we have 2 strikers, a controller, and a leader. The Avenger tends to be the default Defender as the only melee character. I took the Leather armor feat for her and she has a 23 AC and does alright. My psion took the leather armor feat too and actually has a 22 AC, so he can sub in and take a few swings if the Avenger needs to stop and get some quick healing.
#12 corvusdrake Jul 23, 2009 20:28:21	How did Mr. Slavicsek put it? "If no one chooses to be a defender, the monsters will choose for you." Gotta love this. It's the DM's fault that the party is getting chewed up by a premade adventure, eh? I think this has more to do with players still working on that learning curve. IMX, 4e can be kind of brutal early on when people are still figuring things out. It's really more that the DM should be able to tailor the campaign if they are going to use premades. But yes, 4e is brutal for first-timers, because its party makeup is more like a WoW-ish kinda thing, with a few averages taken in. If you're missing a core section of the group (i.e. a Healybot), the entire campaign must be swayed to work around it, or an NPC/DMPC has to be involved.
#13 daidojitaidoru Jul 23, 2009 21:51:51	I'm also trying to decipher your comment about full HP and 1-shotted to negative HP. Were you saying that your players ARE getting 1-shotted? I'm wondering then if you've calculated HP wrong (adding your CON modifier instead of your CON SCORE). This is my guess. That would make things harder right there....
#14 Hibiki54 Jul 23, 2009 22:45:32	Why don't you play the defender? Ever thought about that? Don't cry about not having a defender when clearly the decision is obvious.
#15 negzero Jul 24, 2009 0:40:14	Why don't you play the defender? Ever thought about that? Don't cry about not having a defender when clearly the decision is obvious. Maybe you should try reading the whole post before mouthing off. Classes have already been selected and played.
#16 corvusdrake Jul 24, 2009 7:36:06	Maybe you should try reading the whole post before mouthing off. Classes have already been selected and played. This means nothing. Multiclass 4tW
#17 zillah Jul 25, 2009 3:23:09	the 2 leaders can be defenders just fine. they just need to learn how to sword/board. the others need better tactics. multi classing takes time and levels. that doesn't magically get you a tank. give me a break. you might as well have everyone multi class into some insane DPR build so everyone's epeens can become huge. yes, that will fix it all. anyway, tell the warlord to start picking up the slack and the cleric to start healing. tactics> group composition
#18 ace_of_time Jul 25, 2009 14:17:00	Leaders can and do make good defenders. You shouldn't have a problem. the Cleric will do fine as a defenders. Most of their heals are ranged.
#19 Hibiki54 Jul 25, 2009 18:21:56	Maybe you should try reading the whole post before mouthing off. Classes have already been selected and played. I did. My comment still stands.
#20 CCS Jul 25, 2009 22:12:56	(I don't believe that a ranger should have a melee build you know the whole RANGE being part of your name in all, ~ You do realize that they aren't called rangers because they shoot, right?
#21 alric Jul 26, 2009 0:05:25	If you don't got a defender, you just need to work as a team to spread the damage out a little. You don't want anyone to walk out into the front and have all the enemies focus fire on him, if he isn't the type of person with high defense and good health. If someone gets in trouble, have them pull back and hide a little and let someone else take the damage. In 4e, nothing should ever one hit kill you. Even a crit isn't likely to kill someone in one hit. So I am guessing its a slight exaggeration.
#22 archtyrant_terevoth Jul 26, 2009 0:14:04	I dont' even see a problem here. The defender's role is really pretty trivial. A cleric can easily "stop" more damage than a defender ever will with his healing. About the only problem I can really see here is that your group's warlord is alone in melee combat. You really should switch the group to full ranged.
#23 Hibiki54 Jul 26, 2009 0:17:02	A Defender's job is to lock down a single target. Either to prevent movement, stop from attacking allies or to set the party on who to focus fire.
#24 corvusdrake Jul 26, 2009 10:40:09	A Defender's job is to lock down a single target. Either to prevent movement, stop from attacking allies or to set the party on who to focus fire. In skirmishes I tend to design my combats so this is rather impossible. Due to other factors present in the battles, the need to shift target focus is common as threats rebalance. The larger the battle, the less this happens, unless it's a horde versus a single party.
#25 shard_of_suzail Jul 26, 2009 12:01:20	It's a tactics issue. The lack of a defender is made up for in other ways, ie by putting out more damage. So this group needs to be much more aggressive and to use their superior damage dealing to keep the bad guys dead or distant. Why need a man with a shield and armour when anything that sticks its head out of cover is instantly vaporised or filled with arrows? I personally hate the idea of defenders, "tanks" or any of that other nonsense. Other classes can do the job or can shine in their specialism to cover the slack. Whole parties of strikers do work, as long as those strikers actually do their job, for example. If nobody wants to play a defender, then thats just fine, so long as they make a good job of playing striker, leader or whatever their choice is.
#26 NinjaPlease Aug 01, 2009 10:13:21	I will admit though, no matter what your party make up is at first, you are going to struggle a little bit your first time through some encounters. 4.0 is so much more tactical and REQUIRES you and your fellow adventurers to work together. This only comes with practice though. Learn and understand what it is your allies are capable of, set each other up for success. You are only as strong as the company you keep so learn how to work with each other to best set up your attacks. It isn't my turn, your turn, their turn anymore. Work together! (can I think of any other way to reitterate the importance of teamwork?) :P You aren't a melee party so don't group yourselves together, use the terrain - it plays a huge part in the game and can make the difference between a walk in the park and a TPK. Your goal should be to keep your enemies isolated and pick them off one by one. Furious Smash is a godsend. Remember you can use it like this: o x o x o o f o o s o s Where x=enemy, f=furious smash warlord, s=ranged strikers, o=open squares If the enemies happen to move between warlord and striker turns you can still shift or move around as you get the bonus until you attack, you need only be adjacent to enemy or warlord to recieve initial bonus.
#27 negzero Aug 02, 2009 21:12:21	Yeah right now I've just gotten our Sorcerer to swallow his pride in some fights and just aid my attack rolls allowing my to unleash hell upon anything near me and a flanking ranger. However the Cleric and wizard are still pretty unwilling to do much in teamwork department. However even though the DM loves my improvised attacks (Grab + grappling hook + plus nearby pit ) , the other players are however less then willing to assist me on such attacks or even come up with ideas like that. So what can I do to get them to start making there own attacks up or just willing to assist the ones I come up with?
#28 shard_of_suzail Aug 03, 2009 7:40:50	So what can I do to get them to start making there own attacks up or just willing to assist the ones I come up with? Well, nothing. If they arent doing useful stuff and instead they are dieing, then i doubt that they will ever see sense. If they dont work as a team, then things go wrong, its as simple as that, but its very tricky to make them change.