non-religious Paladin

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

bladeofgrass7

Apr 12, 2011 8:17:51		Can you have a paladin without them being religous/worshipping a deity?
#2

LordOfWeasels

Apr 12, 2011 9:07:58
Can you have a paladin without them being religous/worshipping a deity?



By default, Paladins get their magical powers invested in them from a deity.

You *could* have a nonreligious one, but you'd need to come up with a new explanation for your powers.  Talk to your GM - there's nothing mechanical stopping you, but he might prefer to leave the Divine-flavoured stuff for Divine-powered characters.
#3

Krusk

Apr 12, 2011 9:56:45
Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful.

 

Sounds to me like they had to have a diety at one point. Or honestly like you could "half-ass it through all that religious crap" get your ceremony and pay at best lip service.


It sounds like their knightly order invests them with some of the power of a diety, and then expects the paladin to use it correctly. I don't know how involved the diety actually is in all of this.


This is from 4e PHB 1, I don't know what essentials or any erratta might say about this.


In my games I encourage paladins not to bother choosing a diety, and to simply pick a cause that they champion. It could be a diety if they want, but it definately doesn't have to be.


 

#4

RedSiegfried

Apr 12, 2011 12:40:18 		Go ahead and don't choose a deity if you want but then you will miss out on domain powers or any game element that requires worshipping a specific diety.

When I DM a Paladin has to pick a deity and stick to the alignment restrictions, domains and rule element prerequisites but you can refluff/rename your deity however you want.
#5

salla

Apr 12, 2011 12:42:59
Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods. This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful.

 

Sounds to me like they had to have a diety at one point. Or honestly like you could "half-ass it through all that religious crap" get your ceremony and pay at best lip service.


It sounds like their knightly order invests them with some of the power of a diety, and then expects the paladin to use it correctly. I don't know how involved the diety actually is in all of this.


This is from 4e PHB 1, I don't know what essentials or any erratta might say about this.


In my games I encourage paladins not to bother choosing a diety, and to simply pick a cause that they champion. It could be a diety if they want, but it definately doesn't have to be.


 




I concur; it's not infeasible (unfeasible?  nonfeasible?) for someone to fake their way to the rites of investiture, if they're that determined.
#6

mellored

Apr 12, 2011 14:45:15
Can you have a paladin without them being religous/worshipping a deity?

Yes.
#7

Omnirahk_half-Rahkshi

Apr 13, 2011 7:21:25 		Borrowing from some half-remembered 3.5 fluff, you could talk to your DM about the "divine" power coming from commitment to an ideal, rather than to a god.  As people have said, you don't have to worship a god - but you will have to either address how your character got inducted into a knightly order without that religious bent, or else provide an alternative explanation to your powers that isn't divine.  Eh, you could go invoker or demigod style - fate chose you for this role, but that doesn't mean you have any intention of serving the particular deity who gave you the power.
#8

Kingpin000

Apr 13, 2011 8:52:11

you could handle it like a Warlock Pact.

for example, a divine creature(i.e. angel) looks for a direct possibility to interact with the plane you live, then you fall during a battle as normal soldier. instead of dying the creature makes an offer to keep you alive and vests you with paladin-like powers for the price to follow its orders without protest.


you don't need to be religous because a divine creature uses you directly as its tool....

#9

Aetharion

Apr 14, 2011 5:37:26 		As Krusk's quote stated, a paladin doesn't need to be actively worshipping any deity in order to be a paladin. On the other hand, it would be strange if a temple allowed a person to become a member of their paladin order, if that person didn't share their worship.

But you could have a paladin who had had a falling out with their deity and lost their faith.

Kingpin000's version would make sense, if not for the fact that there already is a class for that: The Vestige Pact Warlock. Deities themselves can invest power in mortals, making them members of a divine class, but angels and other immortals make pacts - Infernal pacts in case of devils, Vestige pacts in case of others. 
#10

Kaganfindel

Apr 14, 2011 13:46:32 		Reflavor it as you like, as long as your DM is up for it.  I've had games where the party's ranger was built with the barbarian character class, and the druid was a storm sorceror.  The paladin character class is a pile of numbers that you can use to build a really wide variety of concepts.
#11

tsukinousagi

Apr 24, 2011 7:59:25 		Sounds like the person wants the perks of being a Paladin, and can't come to grips with what a Paladin is supposed to be. What next non religious Clerics?

Paladins are the heroic arm of their God, end of story. If you ain't a champion of a god, you ain't a Paladin. Not sure why this is even a topic.
#12

salla

Apr 24, 2011 15:09:48
Sounds like the person wants the perks of being a Paladin, and can't come to grips with what a Paladin is supposed to be. What next non religious Clerics?

Paladins are the heroic arm of their God, end of story. If you ain't a champion of a god, you ain't a Paladin. Not sure why this is even a topic.



Because that isn't the case.  See: Krusk's post and quoting of the PHB above.
#13

CCS

Apr 24, 2011 19:21:16
Sounds like the person wants the perks of being a Paladin, and can't come to grips with what a Paladin is supposed to be. What next non religious Clerics?

Paladins are the heroic arm of their God, end of story. If you ain't a champion of a god, you ain't a Paladin. Not sure why this is even a topic.



Because that isn't the case.  See: Krusk's post and quoting of the PHB above.



Yes and what you get is just a steaming pile of crap #s & powers with a borrowed name attached to it.

#14

Fireclave

Apr 24, 2011 20:34:54
Sounds like the person wants the perks of being a Paladin, and can't come to grips with what a Paladin is supposed to be. What next non religious Clerics?

Paladins are the heroic arm of their God, end of story. If you ain't a champion of a god, you ain't a Paladin. Not sure why this is even a topic.



Because that isn't the case.  See: Krusk's post and quoting of the PHB above.



Yes and what you get is just a steaming pile of crap #s & powers with a borrowed name attached to it.




So the paladin is a "steaming pile of crap #s & powers" because its a class just like any other class?  Or is it a more general problem that its badwrongfun to play against or ignore default fluff in a system where fluff is mutable also by default?

Though perhaps I'm speaking prematurely and the OP is talking about 3e paladins where the player had little choice but to play the DM's interpretation of what a LG paladin should be?
#15

salla

Apr 24, 2011 21:01:59 		I know this is hard for you to grasp, CCS, but not roleplaying the default fluff is not the same thing as not roleplaying.  A class IS just a pile of numbers and powers; it's up to the player to determine how he wants to roleplay it.

Additionally, class name is IRRELEVANT.  IR-REL-E-VANT.  It doesn't matter what class it says on the character sheet, that is not the sum total of the character's identity.  Having 'monk' on the sheet doesn't mean you have to be a zen-spouting religious philospher.  Your Barbarian doesn't have to act barbaric.  Seriously, 4e gives you the freedom to play your character how you want.
#16

arcanaknight

Apr 25, 2011 6:37:32

By non-religious, do you mean atheist or just agnostic?  If its the latter, there is a great character in the Dresden series you could model it after; he is a holy night who wields a holy sword made from one of the nails Jesus was crucified with, but still maintains agnosticism.  Your character could still get his powers from a god, but he doesn't really see it as a god, just as a being that is much more powerful than himself.

#17

Krusk

Apr 25, 2011 8:19:58

Sounds like the person wants the perks of being a Paladin, and can't come to grips with what a Paladin is supposed to be. What next non religious Clerics?


Thats exactly what they want. The "Perks" (Class features) without dealing with whatever the DM decides at that moment a paladin should be. 


I'd let non-religious clerics go. I'd ask them to believe in something, and their power of belief is where they draw power from. (Same arguement goes for "Gods are dead/absent/uncaring why do clerics exist")



#18

LordOfWeasels

Apr 25, 2011 9:45:29

By non-religious, do you mean atheist or just agnostic?  If its the latter, there is a great character in the Dresden series you could model it after; he is a holy night who wields a holy sword made from one of the nails Jesus was crucified with, but still maintains agnosticism.  Your character could still get his powers from a god, but he doesn't really see it as a god, just as a being that is much more powerful than himself.




More particularly, Sanya sees the messages and the power of this being that his fellow knights call "God", but he cannot prove to his own satisfaction that he himself isn't simply delusional, or, if he is not delusional, that this being really is the God the other knights say he is.

#19

shiningwolf88

Apr 25, 2011 10:22:56
Sounds like the person wants the perks of being a Paladin, and can't come to grips with what a Paladin is supposed to be. What next non religious Clerics?

Paladins are the heroic arm of their God, end of story. If you ain't a champion of a god, you ain't a Paladin. Not sure why this is even a topic.



Because that isn't the case.  See: Krusk's post and quoting of the PHB above.



Yes and what you get is just a steaming pile of crap #s & powers with a borrowed name attached to it.




So the paladin is a "steaming pile of crap #s & powers" because its a class just like any other class?  Or is it a more general problem that its badwrongfun to play against or ignore default fluff in a system where fluff is mutable also by default?

Though perhaps I'm speaking prematurely and the OP is talking about 3e paladins where the player had little choice but to play the DM's interpretation of what a LG paladin should be?


I take this question in two directions. One is the character crunch, the powers, stats, ect. In this case, technically the rules do state that you have to take a diety, but its a fluff rule imo, and can be taken as you see fit.
From a fluff point, the basic setting takes that a paladin is someone that is the mortal holy knight of a god. If the character tells people that he/she is a paladin, they will naturally believe they have a god, and state the character is not a paladin without one.
In other words, the dm has final say as far as the crunch goes, but fluff wise a non-religious paladin would really be more of a cavalier in essentials style, or a knight with some wierd powers.
#20

salla

Apr 25, 2011 13:31:56

From a fluff point, the basic setting takes that a paladin is someone that is the mortal holy knight of a god. If the character tells people that he/she is a paladin, they will naturally believe they have a god, and state the character is not a paladin without one.



Which goes back to my statement about class and concept being separate entities.  It may say 'paladin' on the character sheet, but said character would likely not identify himself as a Paladin, and would not introduce himself as such, and nobody should call him such because, in-world, he is not, even if the game identification tag is different.  Just like my agile, leather-clad, rapier-wielding fencer would call himself 'a fencer' or 'a swordsman', not 'a rogue', and my bow-wielding character is 'a sharpshooter' or 'a marksman' and not 'a ranger'.
#21

LordOfWeasels

Apr 25, 2011 14:10:02

From a fluff point, the basic setting takes that a paladin is someone that is the mortal holy knight of a god. If the character tells people that he/she is a paladin, they will naturally believe they have a god, and state the character is not a paladin without one.



Which goes back to my statement about class and concept being separate entities.  It may say 'paladin' on the character sheet, but said character would likely not identify himself as a Paladin, and would not introduce himself as such, and nobody should call him such because, in-world, he is not, even if the game identification tag is different.  Just like my agile, leather-clad, rapier-wielding fencer would call himself 'a fencer' or 'a swordsman', not 'a rogue', and my bow-wielding character is 'a sharpshooter' or 'a marksman' and not 'a ranger'.



A mugger might be a thief by profession and a rogue by nature, but a Fighter or Barbarian by Class. 

(Oooh, ooh!  Anyone remember Order Of The Stick and the discussion of Samurai as social caste versus a Paladin character class?)
#22

shiningwolf88

Apr 25, 2011 14:25:46

From a fluff point, the basic setting takes that a paladin is someone that is the mortal holy knight of a god. If the character tells people that he/she is a paladin, they will naturally believe they have a god, and state the character is not a paladin without one.



Which goes back to my statement about class and concept being separate entities.  It may say 'paladin' on the character sheet, but said character would likely not identify himself as a Paladin, and would not introduce himself as such, and nobody should call him such because, in-world, he is not, even if the game identification tag is different.  Just like my agile, leather-clad, rapier-wielding fencer would call himself 'a fencer' or 'a swordsman', not 'a rogue', and my bow-wielding character is 'a sharpshooter' or 'a marksman' and not 'a ranger'.



A mugger might be a thief by profession and a rogue by nature, but a Fighter or Barbarian by Class. 

(Oooh, ooh!  Anyone remember Order Of The Stick and the discussion of Samurai as social caste versus a Paladin character class?)


and now I need to go back and re-read that. Its been so long, I had completely forgotten about it.
#23

salla

Apr 25, 2011 16:40:39

(Oooh, ooh!  Anyone remember Order Of The Stick and the discussion of Samurai as social caste versus a Paladin character class?)



Yeah, which is at least one reason why I snort derisively every time I see a 'we need a Samurai class' or 'we need a Samurai theme' on the boards.
#24

LordOfWeasels

Apr 25, 2011 16:42:52

(Oooh, ooh!  Anyone remember Order Of The Stick and the discussion of Samurai as social caste versus a Paladin character class?)



Yeah, which is at least one reason why I snort derisively every time I see a 'we need a Samurai class' or 'we need a Samurai theme' on the boards.



Besides, it *already exists*.  Fighter -> Kensai, or Paladin MC Fighter -> Kensai, depending on if you want Historical Samurai or Fictional Samurai as your archetype.
#25

salla

Apr 25, 2011 18:39:28

(Oooh, ooh!  Anyone remember Order Of The Stick and the discussion of Samurai as social caste versus a Paladin character class?)



Yeah, which is at least one reason why I snort derisively every time I see a 'we need a Samurai class' or 'we need a Samurai theme' on the boards.



Besides, it *already exists*.  Fighter -> Kensai, or Paladin MC Fighter -> Kensai, depending on if you want Historical Samurai or Fictional Samurai as your archetype.



Or any Fighter, or Warlord, or even the Ranger if you want to use two katanas at once.  Or Swordmage if you want an Arcane Samurai, or Paladin if you want a Divine Samurai, or Warden if you want a Primal Samurai, or Battlemind or Ardent if you want a Psionic Samurai ... really, just pick a class that comes with longsword proficiency and you can call it a Samurai.