Problem 1: She doesn't get the gameplay. Both my boyfriend and I are very patient, and understanding of this. DnD is a complex game, especially to someone who has neve played a table top game before. But it's been 2 months and I'm beginning to get the feeling that she's not trying and just hoping we do all the math for her.
She never adds in her modifiers, for anything, and on the rare occasions she does it's always her initiative instead of what it's suppose to be, like her perception. She never moves in fights, even to get away from an enemy or to find cover or anything, she just stands there using her at will powers. And, she spends over half of our 3 hour DnD time leveling her character from last session.
I'm patient, I'm not an elitist, and I've even considered the possibility that because I play a lot of MMO's that I have too much of a min-maxer mentality to really empathize with her style.
That being said, I'm running out of creative ways to explain the combat system to her.
However, all this would be hardly forum worthy to me if it weren't for
Problem 2: She's really into her character, bordering on a love to play that character. Which is great, it makes the game fun, especially for me, who loves to roleplay down to the conversations PC's have while traveling down the road. However, she wants to play an "evil *****". Her character is evil. Which I guess isn't a problem, but in general I have trouble getting into evil characters myself, and my boyfriend(who's the DM), despite his best efforts, can't think of a fun or epic feeling evil storyline. So, we've attempted to compromise by having the PCs be neutral.
Over the course of the two months I have had to change characters 3 times, because despite my best efforts, the characters can't get along, and then it's not fun for me anymore. But the character she plays thinks everything in the world is beneath her and not worth the snot in her nose. I can't think of a good way to describe except to describe our last meeting
We walk into a dimly lit room filled with giant sleeping snakes. Our characters recently came from a discussion in which we decided that it would be best to not pull the lever at the entrance until we could better ascertain what it controlled.
Once our characters were inside, she straggled behind and pulled the lever, causing the room to flood with water, making it all difficult terrain and waking the snakes, causing us to lose our surprise round, and hiding a pit in the back we otherwise could have used to our advantage. (Not really a big deal, unexpected scenerios and "oh woops, so that's what that does :D" moments are really part of the fun of DnD)
After the encounter was over my character asked why in God's name did she pull the lever on them. At this moment she explodes and starts yelling (literally yelling at me from across the table) "I know it was a bad move, but I don't need some idiot elf rubbing it in my face! Keep your mouth shut, I have no interest in your haughty speeches, you're a useless idiot!!" After this, she said her character is convinced my character is an idiot not worth associating with. Now, at this point, I kinda snapped, which was a bad move, but I was getting tired of having to change a character every week after I had devised a backstory and gotten excited about playing them simply because the character was no longer able to coexist with hers. This resulted in our characters fighting at the table. (like I said, shame on me here for allowing it to escalate) Needless to say, I did not much enjoy myself for the rest of the night.
After thinking about this I came to the conclusion that no matter how much I tried to change my character, there was no way this could work unless she changed something about her character. My boyfriend agreed with me, and we had a talk with her. She didn't understand, an insisted there was no problem. She saw the fight of last week as simply interesting character development. When I tried to appeal to her that such fighting was spoiling my game experience, she disregarded it as something I'm not taking the right perspective on, after all, it wasn't like she thought I was an idiot, that was just her character.
We attempted the angle that DnD was an adventure roleplaying game and not a soap opera, that the primary challange for a party should be a difficult puzzle, or an evil lich, or a terrifying dragon, not the fact that they can't ever seem to trust and respect eachother. She couldn't see our point here either, insisting that it was all good fun and interesting character development
Eventually my boyfriend simply said something to the affect of "I'm the DM, and that's not the atmosphere I want at my table" and she agreed to change. But the result still isn't sitting right with me. We haven't played since the discussion, but the idea of playing this weekend just isn't thrilling me at all. I want to play at a DnD table that's bigger than my boyfriend and I, but this isn't fun for me. I'm not sure what to do...Any advice? I'm sorry for how long this ended up being.
*Quick Edit though* XD She didn't actually agree to change her character, except to try to make her nicer towards player characters, only on the condition that we allow her character to be come increasingly more evil as the game progresses.
1: Just flat out tell her the way her character acts isn't fun for you or the DM and doesn't add anything to the game for you. The game is about everybody's fun not just her own. You've already moved towards rectifying this by being straight with her about it which is good. You have no reason to feel uneasy about it. However if she remains the same you need to explain that you are just not having and it's not fair on you or your boyfriend.
2: It seems to me as if she is using DND to vent her frustrations and anger rather than to play a game. Though this can be meaningful the context she is doing it in seems purely destructive. It's obvious you've tried to make new characters to fit in with her and coincidentally all of them end up 'hated' by your friends character. Frankly she's 'roleplaying' a mega ***** and she can get away with it because it's just a game. However it's obviously still not fun for you or anybody else and in reality is actually disruptive and almost bordering on abusive. Either you can help her create a character concept that isn't like that. She can still have a similiar attitude but play it far more realistically. In reality her character as she is would have no friends what so ever who would deal with that. The DM can orchestrate quests so she can take her frustrations out on NPC's /bad guys whatever rather than the other players. The idea behind a group isn't to incessantly ***** about each other but to work together to solve problems. Clever roleplaying isn't being intentionally and blatantly destructive just because the player wants to be. Randonmess can be fun as you said but you're obviously not having fun most of the time. Hence why you can instead try to tone down this attitude into a more realistic one and have the randon/angry nature occur occasionly but not constantly. Then it becomes fun rather than a chore.
3: If she's not willing to learn fundamentals of the rules however after 2 months that is a problem. Your boyfriend is obviously putting effort in with creating adventures and you are by creating characters and such. She really has to put some effort into understanding the basics or she simply can't play. You can't be doing all the work for her it's a waste of your time. The rules are not that hard to learn and there's plenty of resources to aid in.
http://dnd4.com/dd-4th-edition-character-sheet
Here for example is a free download for an excel character sheet which automatically fills in your character based on the base stats you input and also automatically levels your character simply by changing the level. Very handy and will save time on leveling. However the fact still remains that she does need to learn the rules. You can just sit down with her and go through all the fundamentals again. If that fails you can simply be harsh and tell her she needs to know the rules before you play. You could design stuff to force her into having to use more than at will powers coupled with never moving by making encounters that change, adding a mix of monsters etc. However you can't base the entire game over one person it's just silly. It seems she enjoys roleplay which is good but she needs to learn the mechanics and also realise there's as much fun to be had in roleplaying during combat as during the rest of the game. Combat isn't some time when you take off your roleplay hat and start playing chess. It's just mechanics to allow you to roleplay. You can shout curses at the enemies, scream in pain, slide down stairs whatever really.
4. Really I think she fails to grasp what real character development and roleplay actually means. Character development is not 'I hate everybody and so will call you names and act like a child at every opportunity' Because you know it involves actual development If she started out with views like that and then slowly became changed over time, perhaps exposed to act of kindness and then becamse a 'better' person overall that would be character development. I fear she is not thinking of it in terms like this but rather 'I can act in a rigid 2d and disruptive manner and call it roleplaying.' To me personally it's just as bad as players killing every NPC because 'that's what they'd do' Being an 'evil' character doesn't mean you're only cruel and vindictive. When you look at literature good authors can paint the bad characters in their stories with humanity that leads us to somewhat sympathise with them. This is realistic, nobody is really hollow like that as human emotion is far too complex. Does she have any good background reasons for being like she is? Does she secretly want to change but not know how? Has she suggested anything like this at all?This is at least 'development' it seems now you just have disruption and a frustrating experience.
Good luck with it anyway.
...Any advice? I'm sorry for how long this ended up being.
*Quick Edit though* XD She didn't actually agree to change her character, except to try to make her nicer towards player characters, only on the condition that we allow her character to be come increasingly more evil as the game progresses.
Don't worry too much about post length. The popular Shakespeare saying, "Brevity is the soul of wit" doesn't really apply when you're trying to get a detailed solution to a complex problem.
Anyway, on topic, I'd be concerned about this player too. In your position, what I would do is wait a session or two to see if she actually improves her roleplaying style. Given how she has resolved to "become more evil as the game progresses," be prepared for disappointment. If she continues to act antisocial in-game, be prepared to boot her.
That said, I'm curious about what this person is like in real life. If she's still a ditzy jerk when away from the gaming table, I'd recommend expediting OPERATION: DROP LIKE A SACK OF FLAMING POTATOES.
And, naturally, you should talk to your boyfriend about any decisions you make. It sounds like you've already spoken with your new gaming buddy multiple times.
1. Point her toward the Dragonlance books for an example. Raistlin Majere is pretty much an evil s.o.b., yet he gets along with the rest of the party because he knows he needs them. What she needs to do with her character is come up with a goal (and the DM can really help here). Evil people are not (generally) motivated simply by killing everyone, but rather by achieving something for themselves (and not being afraid to kill whoever gets in the way). As an example, perhaps there's some super evil artifact of ultimate ickiness in the world. The possessor of said artifact has the power to control the world -- or destroy it. Perhaps the campaign is then centered around the idea of the finding the artifact (and destroying it) before the bad guys get it. This would be an excellent hook for her character. She absolutely wants to get to the artifact before anyone else -- she just doesn't want to destroy it. Both characters can then work together to try to get to the artifact, and then see what happens when the time comes (heck at that point, even having an in character dispute -- at the culmination of the campaign -- might work).
2. It seems that she would definitely be inclined toward more social encounters and/or skill challenges. This is not to say that these should be the only encounters you ever have, but perhaps throwing some in regularly would help appease her some too. My stance with Skill Challenges when I run games is to basically let a PC use any skill they want (so long as they can come up with a sensible use of that skill).
3. As suggested above, perhaps you need to take the lead in role playing combat. Describe your actions ("I sprint over to the Shadar-kai" as opposed to "I move to here and attack"). Maybe give out a battle cry from time to time. Then you can show her how she can roleplay some of her other powers as well. Or even "I dash over to "X" and unleash my power of "Y" in a blare of blinding light in the hopes that Debbie (or whatever her character's name is) will ravage the foe with her Power of "Z". etc., etc. Sure it sounds a little contrived and heavy handed, but maybe she is just having difficulty visualizing how to roleplay combat. It seems as though the combat might be seen as a break from what she really wants to do at the moment (i.e. roleplay).
4. As far as the character disputes go, offer to meet her halfway. Agree to play an evil campaign in exchange for reverting to a good campaign for the next one. Unfortunately, when incorporating new players into the fold, you often need to be the one to give first. Designing an evil campaign really isn't that different from designing a good campaign. All you're doing is telling it from the perspective of the other side. Go back to the earlier example, it can be the exact same campaign, just now the party is the BBEG with the "Heroes" and their assorted allies trying to intervene.
5. You may have already been doing this, but perhaps give her suggestions in combat as to what she can do. "Hey, with a relatively simple Athletics check, you can jump up to that ledge and get at the archer who keeps peppering us."
Unfortunately, after all of that, I am not certain how much more you can do without hurting her feelings (which you likely want to avoid). Keep in mind though that the key to drawing in new players is to focus on what they enjoy and start there. Then slowly add in more elements or variety to introduce them to other things. It certainly sounds as though she really prefers the roleplaying aspect of the game and is not so much interested in combat (which would explain why she just does at-wills, doesn't move, doesn't remember her modifiers, etc.). She just is not that interested in it at this point. She does; however, like to get into the character of somebody else. So start with that, and then show her how you can still remain in character while in combat, etc.
Hope it works out as I can certainly understand wanting to get more people involved. My own play group of the last 9 years or so consisted of just 2 of my friends and I for the most part. Unfortunately, this past August, one of the went to France for a year. We've just never been able to find a one player campaign all that interesting.
Now let her reap the consequences. Let the bad guys get her in a situation where she needs you to save her PCs worthless life. See how well she roleplays kissing your character's butt big-time. She needs to learn that even in a fantasy world, your actions can come back to haunt you. Whether or not your PC decides to show mercy is up to you. She may love that character, but she's abusing it, the game, and your friendship.
I get the feeling that she watches too much "Bad Girls Club" or crap like that and thinks that people would act that way toward each other if we didn't live by this artificially imposed code called "manners". Mmm, nah. Most people act civilly around one another whether or not there are cameras on them.
Just role play your character. If her character does something stupid that would get you killed then go with it. I expect you've kind of gone easy on her being the new player in the group etc, but it sounds to me like she's kind of walking all over you at this point.
Have the DM come up with an adventure with a bunch of social situations in it. And/or situations where teamwork and trust are required within the party. If her character manages to get itself killed or something because of being nasty to everyone or refusing to do her part then its "just part of the adventure". Maybe after SHE is on her 4th character she'll maybe tone it down a bit. What is the worst that can happen? She stops playing? Sounds like at this point that would be a win for you.
The whole thing with mastering the rules is nothing new. I've got a player in my campaign (which has been going on for close to a year now) that has played TONS of 3e and yet still doesn't grasp certain basic parts of 4e like movement and Opportunity Attacks. Some people are not good at that kind of thinking I guess (although in my case she does understand how her character sheet works and things, so it is less extreme).
The best solution I can think of is to make combat very descriptive and dynamic. Have the party doing a lot of stunts and moving around and such things. Don't even mention rules. Just have her describe what she wants to do and make it a lot of fun to do crazy things like swing on ropes over fire pits and such. She may start to get the idea then. Maybe she just doesn't see the point of moving around right now, a lot of people have zero grasp of tactics. As for the mastery of the numbers, it may or may not come.
It does actually kind of sound to me like 4e is not the best game for her to be playing. You might try experimenting with playing something a bit different once or twice. Maybe something like Call of Cthulhu or some other less mechanical type game. I like CoC because it is both lighter on rules/more freeform, and being set in a more realistic world it may also get you some different RP behaviour from her character.
. Thanks again for the responses!In almost every society, behaving in an overtly evil manner has consequences. Even if you're an adventurer. Word gets out, paladins start to hunt you, the King puts a price on your head, or your friends get tired to being abused and abandon or kill you.
Best reaction to an evil character I ever saw was the standard situation where a new player, running a thief, got caught trying to steal from a party member. When he screwed up his roll, the DM asked the "victim" what his reaction was and the player looked at the new guy and said, "Called shot to decapitate". (We weren't playing D&D).
The thief complained that he was just "playing his character" and the other guy said, "Me too."
My point is that if your friend "loves" her character so much, perhaps she needs a lesson in self preservation, because her current behaviour is going to get her character killed by someone - possibly even you.