Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sunic_flames Mar 21, 2008 13:22:58	Ok, first the precedent. The game will be ECL 20. Well, maybe as low as 18, but more likely 20. I for one would be pushing for 20. This is an exotic races type game, so a minimum ECL of 4 sans class levels is in effect. Max class levels = 16. I already have a race picked out, and unless the DM doesn't allow it it is non negotiable. If the DM does decide to not allow it, moot point because I don't have any other ideas. Anyways, with those 16 class levels I was thinking of sorcerer spellcasting. Yes, I know. Wizard is better. Well Intelligence is neutral, Charisma is +4. Also, I'm aiming for optimized enough to be effective, without breaking the game in half. At least, not any more so than full casters already do. Obviously not Sorcerer 16, unless there are no PRCs worth a damn. The main reason this idea might work is because it circumvents the common flaw with the sorcerer, namely that they can't afford to devote too many precious spells known slots to niche applications, meaning a lesser ability to deal with those obscure problems that inevitably come up. The reason for this is I have a racial ability that at ECL 20 and 18 HD allows me to cast any non epic illusion spell at will, with a high DC. So I don't need any of those at all. Along the same lines, I don't need any Conjuration or Evocation spells unless they cannot be duplicated by the appropriate shadow spell. That frees up a lot of slots that would normally go to staples. Note that at any ECL lower than 20, it can only be used 1-6 times a day depending on HD, and the max spell level would be 1st-8th also depending on HD. And of course, balance left the building 10 levels ago. In any case, it actually is worth its ECL 4 and delaying 9th level spells until epic. You won't find it in any WotC book though. So now the questions. First, working out a spell list to cover the bases. Given the theme of the game, it is highly likely any arcane types will be of the innate sort. Sorcerer, Warlock... no Wizards and other learned types. They aren't banned, they just don't fit as well. The details are still being hammered out. And I've never played this sort of prime role or that high a level, so I want to make sure I get it right. Spells known: 0: 9. 1: 5. 2: 5. 3: 4. 4: 4. 5: 4. 6: 3. 7: 2. 8: 1. I don't know what the source list will be, but let's be somewhat conservative and say PHB, PHB2, SC, Complete Arcane, and Complete Mage. If it turns out one or more of those are not in for some reason I can just skip/find replacements for the ones with those labels. As for my theme, I'm batting around the idea of emotions. Namely, screwing with them. Innate illusions already do this to some extent, then the regular spells could do things like fear, fascinate, and so forth. Course, mind affecting is pretty poor at this level so I might have to change this aspect. Practicality trumps idealism. Nightmare Spinner would fit the concept, but loss of a CL is unacceptable. And, it has too much overlap with existing at will illusion ability. Looking for any PRCs that would fit, and do not cause any sort of CL loss. I doubt this will be a high powered game so I'm intentionally avoiding Celerity, Arcane Fusion, etc. If it does prove necessary, I'll get them.
#2 Zherog Mar 21, 2008 14:03:13	The mindbender prestige class (Complete Arcane) is a great one level dip, if you can swing it. Unfortunately, going beyond one level is like cramming 10 pounds of suck into a 5 pound bag. As for spells, you're right about mind-affecting spells being hampered by the rules; also enchantments in general get a good pasting at high level. How much those are affected, of course, depends on what your DM plans to use as enemies. If you're going to be up against a lot of humanoids, it's less of an impact. If you're facing undead and other things immune to mind-affecting abilities, well... Anyway, sticking with your theme of playing on emotions and such: I've always been a fan of charm person, charm monster, dominate person and dominate monster. You can certainly use them as spells to screw with emotions - guilt, mostly.
#3 sunic_flames Mar 21, 2008 14:34:13	The general idea is that humans are waging war on anything magical. That is to say, just about everything non human. So I'd imagine mostly humanoids using roughly steam engine level tech instead of magic. Though too close to call at this point. This also means xxx monster is less likely to have a use. I've sketched out this so far: 0: Doesn't really matter, random flavor stuff. 1st: Mage Armor (obvious self buff, might use greater instead if there isn't a better 3rd level to go for), along with Featherfall and perhaps Identify for general utility. 2 others free. 1 will likely become Charm Person. Which I'd need anyways for that dip. 2nd: Hideous Laughter might be worthwhile, along with False Life and Rope Trick for general utility. 2 others free. 3rd: Nondetection because it's standard at the level and... lots of worthwhile 3rd level spells just in the PHB. Suggestion fits theme and aside from immunity is useful, same with Hold Person. Then Haste, Slow, GMW, Vampiric Touch, Ray of Exhaustion... And Fly. Can't forget Fly. Only get 4 though. 4th: Dimensional Anchor if they're going to be using magic and therefore teleporting. Useless otherwise. Dimension Door, because Shadow Conjuration doesn't allow Conjuration (Teleportation). Scrying and its counter Detect Scrying... not sure about usefulness as it's campaign dependent. Confusion and Crushing Despair fit theme but not sure about usefulness. Bestow Curse is also nice. Range: Touch though. And then there's Polymorph. Only get 4 though. 5th: Teleport is a given. Feeblemind is a nice middle finger, and then Dominate. Also Waves of Fatigue, Baleful Polymorph, and maybe Overland Flight? 4 here as well. 6th: Greater Dispel and True Seeing are practically givens. Though, I could probably just get the latter from an item. And Disintegrate. But Superior Resistance is also practically a given. Only get 3. 7th: Spell Turning, Waves of Exhaustion, Limited Wish, and Finger of Death all seem promising. Only get 2 though. 8th: Mind Blank, Irresistable Dance... only get 1 though. This also doesn't take into consideration the non core spells I could take, which I definitely should if possible. Well. Superior Resistance isn't core, but everything else is. Hmmm... ideas?
#4 Zherog Mar 21, 2008 14:55:48	While they're normally staples, if your foes don't use magic perhaps you could get by without dispel magic, greater dispel magic and - especially - spell turning. Just something to consider on that point. 1st level If you have a ring slot free, you can grab a ring of featherfall pretty cheap and save yourself a slot. Or you could make up an unslotted item (if your DM allows such things) and just carry a feather fall token (or whatever you want to call it). That could buy you back one slot. 2nd level Hideous laughter is one of my favorite spells, even though it suffers from the whole mind-affecting screwage thing. My most recent character was an enchanter, and I made use of this spell frequently. I told really corny/bad jokes ("Why did the ogre cross the road?" "Because he was too dumb to realize it was a bad idea!") Rope trick is a must - but only for one person in your group. If there's another caster with access to it, you could try to foist this spell off onto them. 3rd level I wouldn't worry too much about greater magic weapon. It's great for party buffing, but I think your slots are too limited. Haste and fly are top priorities. I like hold person though it's certainly less useful in 3.5 with the "save every round" thing they added. Vampiric touch is nice because of the temp hit points, but has the same limitation as bestow curse next level - touch range. 4th level No special comments here 5th level Overland flight might be of limited use, especially since you can just teleport most places. Feeblemind is definitely a nice middle finger, and dominate gets you instant minions. 6th level [i]Much like my comment about dispel above, true seeing might not be a standard spell in this game. If your foes aren't using magic then its utility is reduced. 7th level Limited wish has the XP cost going against it. Over the long run, you'll get some of it back (assuming your DM calculates XP for each individual rather than for the group and dividing by the number of players). If he uses the latter method, you might want to skip it. 8th level Irresistible dance probably fits your theme better. But, like most enchantment spells, has that whole "mind-affecting" crap going on. * For a non-core spell that fits your theme: Mindless rage is a second level spell found in Complete Adventurer. Basically, it forces your target to attack you in melee combat. I made great use of this with my enchanter by positioning myself behind my allies, and casting it on the foe - typically a spellcaster, but not always. As I recall, the spell requires them to take the most direct route to you -- which causes them to provoke attacks of opportunity from everybody else as they rush to bash your brains in.
#5 sunic_flames Mar 21, 2008 15:17:16	It's possible, but that point isn't certain. And really if they're just a bunch of peons with non magical weapons they're going to be slaughtered. Period. GMW is good for letting people play martial characters that kinda don't suck as you can make optimal weapons. Also good for self, due to defending armor spikes, the spellstrike property, and others. Hold Person is essentially a save or die in that someone can just start auto critting to death on them. The touch spells I realized I could account for via Archmage if need be. On this subject, haven't worked out all feats either. Extend is a given, but most of what I'd use it for is low level = rod. Some means of flight is more for in combat mobility than transport. I might be confusing it with something else? Being behind in XP is a good thing due to the catch up mechanism. Of course 1 level = epic, and if the DM doesn't like epic it's quite possible there'd be no level ups. And Mind Blank I'd say is a lot more generally useful, unless of course the conditions it comes up in aren't a problem. Otherwise I'm being redundant.
#6 Zherog Mar 21, 2008 15:40:30	It's possible, but that point isn't certain. And really if they're just a bunch of peons with non magical weapons they're going to be slaughtered. Period. GMW is good for letting people play martial characters that kinda don't suck as you can make optimal weapons. Also good for self, due to defending armor spikes, the spellstrike property, and others. Indeed. I didn't mean to come across as though it was a bad spell. It roxxors my boxxors most of the time. Hold Person is essentially a save or die in that someone can just start auto critting to death on them. Yep, that's exactly what it's come down to. I just like it better the old way. Still a good spell from the core book, though. The touch spells I realized I could account for via Archmage if need be. On this subject, haven't worked out all feats either. Extend is a given, but most of what I'd use it for is low level = rod. Some means of flight is more for in combat mobility than transport. I might be confusing it with something else? Nice thought on the archmage. That definitely resolves that. As for combat mobility, I think between dimension door and fly you should be peachy. Fly gives you a better speed (60 ft. vs 40 ft.), but overland flight gives you a much better duration (hour/level vs minute/level). The other advantage fly has is that you can cast it on others. Being behind in XP is a good thing due to the catch up mechanism. Of course 1 level = epic, and if the DM doesn't like epic it's quite possible there'd be no level ups. If your DM plays it properly with the catch-up mechanism, it is indeed a good thing. I've heard of too many DMs, though, who just figure out the average party level and use that to calculate XP for everybody. If you know your DM uses the catch up mechanism, limited wish is a good choice - if for no other reason than it's ability to mimic so many other spells. And Mind Blank I'd say is a lot more generally useful, unless of course the conditions it comes up in aren't a problem. Otherwise I'm being redundant. In a regular game, I definitely agree. This is another spell that's dependent on how your DM is gonna run the baddies. If they never use magic, you're protecting against something that'll never come. Which would make irresistible dance a better choice. For other 8th level spells to consider... maze isn't terrible as a crowd control sort of spell (though it's not great, either); Moment of Prescience is a nice buff; power word: stun is a nice spell if there's a rogue in the party; prismatic wall is another nice protection spell.
#7 sunic_flames Mar 21, 2008 16:15:24	Oh, I didn't think you said it was bad. I was more saying if they really aren't using magic the question of how to beat them is utterly and completely trivial as they never were a credible threat. Fly would be better, unfortunately it conflicts with all the other 3rd level spells. Now if only I could remember what runestaves did and more to the point, if a given one would be highly useful in this case to patch holes. And obviously, whatever 8th level spell I pick I need to be ok with spamming because it's all I'd have in that regard.
#8 Zherog Mar 21, 2008 16:30:36	Yeah, that rules out moment of prescience I think. Given the spam factor, power word stun may be a good option - again, especially if somebody else makes a rogue (or other sneak attack-type build).
#9 sunic_flames Mar 21, 2008 17:12:07	Stun is making for a nice save or die, except without the save part. And 4 castings (with Charisma) = very nice. Course it won't work on the piles of HP, but aiming it at anything not massive or wearing heavy armor should work from the start. I like. Though I'm not sure if this topic is even relevant because the DM is having a warlock like reaction to the at will illusion racial capstone thing. Which isn't at will at any ECL below 20, and of course anything that's ECL 4 without class levels needs high end scaling features to be worth a damn. So either I'll successfully convince him that it's not nearly as awesome as it sounds (just like warlocks, who are slightly underpowered) or not. And if not, concept falls through floor and having no other ideas well you know. And I doubt pointing out I'd likely be the least optimized (or at least not the most) on purpose due to the high chance at least one person would go for something with an utterly broken ability like Shaedling would help matters any. After all, I'm not just making a Wizard. Or a Druid 20. Well, Druid 16 in this case. :P
#10 Zherog Mar 21, 2008 17:15:15	I am curious what this race is...
#11 sunic_flames Mar 21, 2008 17:25:43	This would be far too long if I included the flavor text. So I won't. Note that this was written by someone here (not me) on one of the race creation threads. And, they mixed their flavor text and mechanics up a bit. Race Kitsune Traits (Ex): -Low-light vision: Kitsune can see twive as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, ect. -Darkvision up to 60 feet. -+4 Fortitude save vs. poison: Kitsune have a love of alcohol possibly exceding that of the dwarves. Base Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +4 -Multiple tails: All kitsune have one or more tails, up to nine, throughout their lives. Young kitsune have one tail at birth and do not grow another one until they reach the age of 50, or suficient class level. They cotinue to grow a new tail every 50 years, or class level until they reach the maximum of 9 tails at 400 years, or 24th level. A kitsune grows a new tail every 3 levels. (First tail at 1st HD, 2nd at 3rd HD, 3rd at 6th HD ect.) These tails are a physical representation of the kitsunes power, allowing them to perform ever greater feats with their natural abilities. -Alternate form (Ex): As a standard action, a kitsune can change their form to look like any humanoid of medium size, or fox of their fur color once per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself at its caster level, except that the kitsune does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of a fox or medium humanoid. The kitsune can remain in its fox or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. A kitsune's caster level is equal to its hit die. A young (>50 years/ 3rd level), or drunk kitsune must make a will save DC15 while in an alternate form to keep their tail(s) from appearing. The kitsune gains one additional use of this ability per day for each tail it has beyond the first until they have seven tails, at which point they have an unlimted number of uses. They can also change into such fantastic shapes as a tree of incredible height or a second moon in the sky. -Shippou-bi (Su): This works like the spell Dancing Lights for all kitsune. A kitsune of 7 HD and higher can use Fox Fire as an offensive weapon. This effect works like the spell Lesser Orb of Fire from Complete Arcane pg. 115 and can be used every 2d4 rounds. If the targe dies, their body is consumed in a 10-foot radius ball of fire. Every creature caught in the burst takes half the origional damage on a failed save, and half of that on a made save. (Reflex save DC 11+Charisma modifier.) -Illusions (Su): This ability functions as all illusion spells of the appropriate level. At 8th HD it can also hide structures, equipment, and creatures within the area. The Will save DC 10+# of tails+Charisma modifier+1/2 hit die. On a failed save, it has the added effect of the people targeted are unsure if they are awake or dreaming, and what they see is determined by this. This ability can be used once per day. The kitsune gains one additional use of this ability per day for each tail it has beyond the first until they have seven tails, at which point they have an unlimted number of uses. Caster level equals hit die. Kitsune as Charicters Kitsune charicters tend tward a chaotic nature, tending tward nither good or evil. Kitsune favor the rogue class and periodically pursue the Arcane Trickster prestiege class. Kitsune clerics are rare, but those that do exist typically worship their patron deity Inari, the goddess of rice. -2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma A kitsune's base land speed is 40 feet. Low-light vision Darkvision 60 feet +4 Fortitude saves vs. poison. Automatic Languages: Common, Yokai. Bonus languages: Any (except secret languages like Druidic). Favored Class: Rogue Racial Hit Die: 2d8 Level Adjustment: +2
#12 Zherog Mar 21, 2008 17:40:03	What's their type and size? (just curious - doesn't affect playability any) Also: Base Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +4 Is incorrect. A 2-HD critter would have no better than +3 in any save.
#13 sunic_flames Mar 21, 2008 17:48:08	Yeah, I noticed that too. I think the author counted LA, except then it'd be 1/4/4. They are Medium Monstrous Humanoids.