Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Britainicus Oct 15, 2013 19:01:09	I have been playing DnD for about 50% of my life at this point.  I started with 3rd Edition and moved to 4th, but either playing or dming we have always been pretty lax on mapping.  We would draw out the encounter when needed, or draw out small bits of map as needed.  But, the current DM is an old school player.  The last dungeon we ran was one he wrote directly after he started playing, which was before I any of the other players were alive.  So we have run into the issue that all of us younger players, read we are all either 30 or pushing 30, have very little experience mapping during game.  We have started, though, and we suck at it.  We really do.  So my question is this...   How do other mappers go about making sure you are accurate, without asking the DM every tie you draw a line.  How do you clarify directions with the least ammount of intrusion into game flow?
#2 iserith Oct 15, 2013 20:35:29	The old joke at our table was always the DM asking, "Who wants to be The Mapper?" and everyone shouting "NOT IT!" Moral of the story: Don't be the guy that had just got up to the go to the bathroom. That sucker was always The Mapper.   Point is, if it's not adding any fun to the game experience, it needs to go and your DM needs to know this, directly and politely. A simple way of doing this is by abstraction - the crypt area is over here and it's connected to the trap-filled maze which connects to the Underdark tunnel and the fungus forest area. There may be lots of rooms in those general areas you can reference if you need to go back to it, e.g. "The room in the trap-filled maze area with the floating red sphere." If he's asking you to tell him which lefts and rights to take and how many feet the corridors are, you're probably on the wrong track (unless you like that sort of thing).
#3 Centauri Oct 15, 2013 20:51:00	What if you didn't make a player map, but just said that one character was mapping? Would the DM punish you, by causing you to become lost and never do anything fun, or stumble into encounters far too hard for you? Ask him what he has in mind about mapping.   I wouldn't bother asking the DM if the map is accurate. Of course it's accurate. Your character is there, and knows - from recent memory, if nothing else - how big such and such a room was and how many exits it had. I wouldn't clarify anything either. Do your best. If this is something that intrudes on the game, then that's a problem, so do your best without intruding. If that isn't what the DM is after (and it sounds like he's after recreating a very specific experience from his youth), clarify that - after the game.   Good luck.
#4 Rartemass Oct 15, 2013 20:51:52	Using graph paper is the simplest method for me. Treat each large square as 5/10/20 foot depending on the size of the dungeon. You'll need a basic indication from the DM as to the dungeon size if you want it to fit on one page, but if you choose a poor unit you can always spread to another page or two.   Ask questions like "How wide/high is this immediate area?" then tell the DM that you will assume this is the case for the entire dungeon until the DM says otherwise. Then you draw a room that is X wide by Y long. Ask for obvious exits to draw them as well. If you find a secret exit you can add it later. Inside the room write a basic word or phrase that explains the contents ie torture chamber, mess hall, bunks, foyer, sacrificial altar, latrine, birthing suite etc. Important features can be added in with a simple legend. A + on the map could mean a religious item, a $ could be treasure. Create your own shorthand as you go. You shouldn't need to know the exact places of items, just where to find them later. If it is important to know exact locations then the DM should probably provide a detailed map for an encounter.   If the DM is basing the exploration as rounds you will know how far you move each round. If not then your character can count each step. Treat two steps as 5 foot. The DM will need to give you a basic idea on how far you travel before making a turn. If you come to a cross roads, draw tunnels going in the other directions as far as your character can see, then follow the one path. When in doubt turn left.
#5 Britainicus Oct 15, 2013 21:14:17	The biggest reason we map is some of the dungeons are pretty huge.  So it is more of a matter of which way to go to get back to point A or point Z.  The only time we get "punished" is if we leave for an extended period of time.  One of the dungeons was about 2 weeks from the closest settlement, so round trip is a month, and we need a map when we get back.  Part of the problem may be that we are all a little too ocd for our own good.  The mapping doesn't detract from the fun of the game, it doesn't really add to it either.  So, overall neutral is a fine way to go about it.  The whole thing is just different is all.     As for saying we are mapping...yeah, we didn't even think of that.  But, no he wouldn't 'punish' us for it.  He is probably the most fair GM I have ever played with.  I think we will just loosen up our mapping and go for basics as opposed to exact.  While slowly going insane that they aren't perfect.
#6 RedSiegfried Oct 17, 2013 9:32:03	Back in the day when I DMed games where we mapped, we put down a piece of graph paper on the table within reach of everyone and I, the DM, would draw the map for the players as they went along.  Then we also used a large battlemat on which we could draw encounter areas when needed, to use with minis.   Main reason I did this was because I wanted to reveal the dungeon in a detailed way as the PCs went along, but having them misdraw the map and get lost was just a pain in the butt to me.  And even I got the map wrong sometimes when I drew it ... and I had a picture of it sitting in front of me!   Making the players draw the map based on DM verbal description is just a recipe for possibly getting lost and creating some confusion.  Some people find that to be a fun challenge, though.  Does your DM want there to be a possibility of confusion and getting lost?  If so, does the rest of the group find that to be a fun challenge?   These are the two questions you have to find out the answers to.  If the answer to either is "no" then don't have the players draw a map as you go along.  Either have the DM draw the map for the group as you go along, or just do away with mapping altogether.   Another thing that can be done is to draw the map out ahead of time , put it out there for everyone on the table, and just reveal parts of it by moving pieces of paper around.  I actually did this with a couple of dungeon maps early in our current 4e campaign, when it was almost the whole of Heroic tier exploring one huge dungeon, and I  scaled the maps 5' to 1" to they would work with our minis!  The maps were huuuuuuge, and a lot of work to make, but it was fun for me as the DM to make them and reveal them as the players moved around.   Between sessions, I'd take a photo of how much of the map was uncovered so we wouldn't forget where we were.  Of course, you don't have to make the map to scale with miniatures like I did, but I thought it was pretty cool.  A small map on graph paper would work just fine.
#7 bloodwhitewolf Oct 17, 2013 10:25:43	I like RedSiegfried idea honestly... but when I play D&D something that helps is having our survival/nature skill up, that way all we have to remember is direction and distance (ie north east 60 miles) as well as a few land marks (like caves or strange rock shapes or house in the middle of nowhere) just learning these 2 things can help u get from one place to another and the way back could be the path you reconize or a bit of math away (using previous example going 42 miles south then 42 miles west and u should be at your origional destination) granted rolls at this point can get u screwed up a little but with survival or nature skill up it's not likely, espically when you can get/make a compass in game (also a useful way of finding iron) [although depending on your world compasses may not exist/work like they do on earth, were just lucy mot lava by the polar ice cap right now, it is slowly changing] but that depends on how much science u put into your campaign, and if there's that much science in your campaign then generally there will be a device that will help you be able to tell basic direction. Also make sure that if u desinate 1 charter to directions (generally a charter that taes care of an animal) and that when he is knoced out u have someone to take his place with about a third of hi skill so u don't get lost
#8 Kishri Oct 17, 2013 18:51:58	I pretty much do it as RedSiegfried describes.   I "grew up" in the era of player mapping and all it did was take up time and cause arguments.   Sometimes I have the map already drawn, other times I create it right in front of the players.  Either way, the players always see where they have been.  I use a battlemat for combat encounters.   Now, an adventure that stresses being lost, or where the players can't keep their bearings I might have them map it based off of descriptions.  That is a very rare case in my games.   Back in the day, I was the mapper.  I actually volunteered to do it much to my fellow players' relief.  I got very good at it as well as translating what the DM meant to say.  That said, I am very happy to keep those skills in retirement where they belong.
#9 Britainicus Oct 17, 2013 20:41:09	We start a new delve on Saturday, so we shall see how the mapping goes.  My friend is the one who maps primarily, I have the illustirous pleasure of taking the notes.  So we shall see how it goes.  Maybe, talk with the DM if it gets in the way.  It generally hasn't gotten in the way before, but it has occasionally.     During encounters we map out on a mat more often than not, with 4e that seems to be the case most of the time.     The biggest issue with the mapping is that it may cause some slow down this time, because we have a new player joining the game.
#10 Krusk Oct 19, 2013 10:44:37	How accurate do you really find that you need to be?   Some straight and curved lines on the back of a paper next to some doodles usually seems like enough to me. If the DMs got you going through mazes ask for intelligence checks to figure it out, and explain that you (the group) don't really find the mapping aspect super fun.
#11 Scatterbrained Oct 20, 2013 10:04:09	I think you got your answer in your first response. If no one but the DM finds this to be fun, then it needs to go. Sounds like needless bookkeeping to me.   If this is 4e, finding your way through a dungeon from point B back to point A can be done with a dungeoneering check. 4e is about using character skills (dungeoneering, perception, etc.) determine the outcome of actions rather than player skills (how well someone at the table is drawing a map).   Obviously the DM put a lot of time into his map, so it would still be considerate to ask him to display it, perhaps with bits uncovered as you go. But just because you can clearly see the route from B back to A, doesn't mean your characters can automatically find their way back there.
#12 Centauri Oct 21, 2013 0:09:26	I can understand the desire to represent the skill of traveling through a maze-like region, but I think it would be best not to simulate it or have it hinge on something as iffy as one participant describing to someone else what to draw. Some games bring in player skill as a factor, but pit the players against clearer, more well-defined challenges. For instance, in Bioshock, in order to reprogram security features, one must play a minigame. The character can gain abilities that make the game easier, but a skilled player can do quite well without them. The mini-game somewhat simulates what the character is actually doing, but it can be assumed to be more complicated in-game.   So, for instance, a DM who wanted to make an actual player challenge out of navigating a maze might play a game of memory with the players. Players of characters with training in the appropriate skills, or lucky rolls or special abilities might be able to do things like flip extra cards or use a wild card. The important thing would be to make failure interesting, rather than a dead end, so if the DM winds up making the game too complicated the players are stuck at a dead end.
#13 RedSiegfried Oct 21, 2013 10:04:43	Centauri wrote:
#14 CCS Oct 21, 2013 13:15:12	We only ever concern ourselves with sketching out a reasonably accurate map when its important for some reason - like (but not limited to) a combat encounter.   Until then our maps resemble straight lines, squares/circles/rectangles/etc for rooms, & #s.  Sometimes with a notation of the rooms dimmensions (ex: 30' sq.)   Though many times we don't even do that 1) because our characters aren't actively mapping the area, 2) in many cases there's no real need to.  IE; we're not concerned with getting lost when raiding the typical monster lair.  Not even if there are several hallways involved. 3) Our characters have various in-game methods other than quill & parchement to avoid getting lost.
#15 1stLevelSean Oct 23, 2013 11:30:59	Back in the AD&D days, the DM would describe each room and we'd copy it down--"the corridor goes straight for 80 feet, turns 45 degrees to the right, continues 60 feet, and opens into a rectangluar room 50 feet wide by 80 feet long with an altar 60 feet up the east wall". Sounds pretty tedious, but I don't recall minding it. We felt like that was what we were supposed to do. Now that we're older, we think of mapping as a part of the fun, and don't push it to the point that's tedious.   In the 5E exploration rules, a mechanic for mapping is included. Someone in the party declares that they're mapping, and if they make their skill check, they did a good job. If the party needs to retrace their steps, they'll be able to do so easily. If the mapper fails his save, then you're lost, off track or at least unable to find your way home.   Drawn maps can be a fun artifact of a session, however, but be sure not to work really hard on achieving levels of accuracy that aren't useful or believable. You're adventurers, not road surveyors, so a hasty sketch showing exits, important features, and maybe a word or two about the occupants may be all you need.
#16 Centauri Oct 23, 2013 11:59:28	1stLevelSean wrote: