On player-class enemies and helping the DM. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

On player-class enemies and helping the DM.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
nil_athelion
Feb 10, 2009 15:27:40 Hello all,

I'm a new player, and just started a 4e campaign with some guys in my dorm. They have played two campaigns before, both in 3.5e - DM, other players, etc.

My character just got to 2nd level, and that may change things, but so far it's been a really rough ride. All the other players seem to be complaining, and I have no idea what is expected in these games - I generally play tactical computer games, etc.

The problem seems to be that our campaign has us fighting a lot of raiding parties from a gnoll nation, and all of those gnolls are player-class characters. They have everything that we have, save--apparently--for action points. I play a human fighter, and against the gnoll fighters the only real difference is that I'm defense-oriented, and they are offense oriented.

Combat generally starts with them leading off with a charge and their encounter powers. I've dropped from 29 to 3 HP after getting hit by two steel serpent strikes on the first round. (I know they do 1d12+3 damage, as they use battleaxes and do three damage with their reaping strikes.) They follow up with reaping strikes and the occasional come-back strike.

Now, I think this is okay, as we have been surviving. They might out-number us 3:2, but in our favor we have more diversity among classes and our DM has a bad grasp of combat tactics (This, apparently, is not a gnoll trait, as the DM is more than willing to take my suggestions on strategy and tactics to help his gnolls fight better).

The other players, however, think that a party of four level one PCs fighting two rangers and four fighters (all lvl 1) is unfair. I don't know, has I've never played before. I do know that when we fought a solo enemy apparently made from the monster manual, we crushed it.

So that's my first question - is that unfair, or are the rest of my compatriots just whiney? What is fair, in your eyes?

The second question is how to interact with this. All of the other players seem to get pissy when I explain to the DM how to stage better ambushes, how to use the enemy fighters marking abilities to protect fighting retreats, how to barricade, etc.

I feel that I am completely just in improving our DM's ability to manage combats. My reasoning is that if he knows more, that's good, as he now has the option to use it or not, and thus can DM better. The players reason that me suggesting things is bad for the party. My counter is that OOC talk does not need loyalty to the party, but rather should be for the improvement of the game as a whole.

Am I right in helping the DM? Should I follow the party's line, and never suggest anything that could make life harder for the party? Does the current difficulty of the encounters make any difference?
#2
nowiwantmydmg
Feb 10, 2009 16:44:58 Well the DM is well within his rights to throw harder than average encounters at you, but 6 elites(a monster with a class template is an elite monster) is quite hard for 4 players.

For easy encounters the XP "budget" at level 1 is 100XP per Player. An elite level one monster is 200XP, He is throwing 3 times the XP budget at you, it works out to ~ a level 5-6 encounter which should be barely survivable if you have all of your dailies and action points at the start assuming good tactics on the monsters part. With poorer tactics(I'd stop helping during combat, give advice at the end/between-if every encounter is like this) it will of course be easier to handle.

Did your DM play 3.5 edition perchance? Because it sounds like he doesn't know that player class monsters are the exception and not the rule in 4th edition. Monsters and Players use different creation mechanics now and he should be using them. Gnolls by the monster manual are probably too much to handle for your group at it's current level but using goblin statistics (or another weaker monster) and calling/flavouring them as gnolls would work fine if he was hellbent on gnolls.

You are perfectly right to help the DM, without feedback he won't improve, the other players sound whiney. Of course the encounter difficulty may be part of their whineiness.
#3
Ramien
Feb 10, 2009 19:57:30 Those may not be elite gnolls, either. They may just be gnoll fighters using the gnoll race from either the back of the MM or the Dragon article. It's definitely a tough-sounding encounter either way.
#4
brashnir
Feb 11, 2009 4:08:32
Those may not be elite gnolls, either. They may just be gnoll fighters using the gnoll race from either the back of the MM or the Dragon article. It's definitely a tough-sounding encounter either way.

Using a PC built character as an enemy counts an an elite in terms of XP reward and budget.
#5
squarecircle
Feb 11, 2009 4:33:55 Your DM shouldn't be throwing monsters at you with character classes, at least not until he has a better grasp of how to set up encounters. He's definitely throwing more at your party than he should. It's a wonder you've survived to 2nd level, honestly. I would expect a TPK with what you're describing... but then, I don't know the details.
#6
nil_athelion
Feb 11, 2009 12:18:58
Did your DM play 3.5 edition perchance? Because it sounds like he doesn't know that player class monsters are the exception and not the rule in 4th edition. Monsters and Players use different creation mechanics now and he should be using them. Gnolls by the monster manual are probably too much to handle for your group at it's current level but using goblin statistics (or another weaker monster) and calling/flavouring them as gnolls would work fine if he was hellbent on gnolls.

Yes, all the other players were playing 3.5 last semester. I think part of why we wound up fighting elite gnolls is because he only had the 4e PHB at the start of things, along with that PC-creation program from Insider.

How many elite gnolls are fair for 4 players? What about when everyone comes, and there are 6 or 7 players?

What's the difference mechanically between elite gnolls and... um... normal gnolls? Stats? Abilities? Where can I find out?

What are your recommendations for the DM? I know he has a gnoll nation in the middle of the island, so that's not going to change.
#7
mycroftb
Feb 11, 2009 18:27:00 Very roughly, normal monsters have double the HP and half the damage potential as PCs, I think. That makes the combats much more swingy. Add in the slew of options that PCs have power-wise, and it's likely that his inferior tactics were all that saved you from statistically likely death.

Each PC is roughly equivalent to another PC. If you had a party of PCs facing a similar number of PC-statted monsters, then odds are about 50% that you'll win. Have another PC vs. PC battle, and odds are about 25% that you'll win both battles. Three battles would be 12.5%. And so on. That's one of the reasons the DMG recommends not statting monsters as PCs (the other is that it's too much work writing in feats and skills and powers they'll never use).

I'd really recommend your DM pick up the other books, specifically the Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual. Reading through and using real monster stats will make encounters much better for you guys, and the other players shouldn't complain when you give the DM strategic advice, as that'll make it all the better when the PCs mow down the monsters. If books aren't quite in the budget, there's the Starter Set, which has the basics of DMing, encounter building, and a bunch of low-level monsters. If budget is $0, then I'd recommend looking at free adventures online for monsters to grab and existing encounters to study, like Treasure of Talon Pass, Raiders of Oakhurst, and Dungeon Magazine 155-158.
#8
volcanon2
Feb 12, 2009 14:16:41 Why are people crying "OMG UNFAIR"? Its his game, he can do what he wants. The fact that you guys aren't getting massacred means he isnt making it too hard. Would the other players prefer easy victories every single encounter?
#9
nowiwantmydmg
Feb 13, 2009 11:50:23 @Volcanon2: while it's certainly not unfair (if a DM wants to throw Orcus at a level 2 party it's not unfair-it's his game), facing battles that are constantly extremely difficult does get grating, there's nothing wrong with the occassional "freebie" encounter. More than anything the lack of rules knowledge seems to be far more of an issue than DM/encounter style in any event.

Yes, all the other players were playing 3.5 last semester. I think part of why we wound up fighting elite gnolls is because he only had the 4e PHB at the start of things, along with that PC-creation program from Insider.

How many elite gnolls are fair for 4 players? What about when everyone comes, and there are 6 or 7 players?

What's the difference mechanically between elite gnolls and... um... normal gnolls? Stats? Abilities? Where can I find out?

What are your recommendations for the DM? I know he has a gnoll nation in the middle of the island, so that's not going to change.

Fairness:The way it sounds like he's doing it (as equal level to you but as PCs) would be 1 elite gnoll per 2 PCs for a standard/not too hard encounter, 1.5 per 2 for a challenging encounter, 2 per 2 (1 for 1) for a hard encounter, while you can ramp up the difficulty from there, played with good monster tactics anymore than that should outright be a TPK(total party kill).

Difference:In a word powers, the powers are much different, give the gnolls more flexibility/adaptability and power, a normal gnoll can't hit you for 2w or 3w damage very often(maybe 1 per encounter) but it sounds like these can. In addition class features like Hunter's Quarry, Backstab or even Combat Challenge up the difficulty and damage potential significantly.Looking at the monster manual gnoll entries compared to what your DM has written out for these monsters should illustrate the difference nicely.

DM recommendations: I would recommend the DM read all 3 core books fully, make sure he understands the rules and use monsters as written until he is more familiar with the rules. I also suggest "reskinning" monsters, using goblin stats, adding gnolls unique racial ability (from the MM entry) and calling it a gnoll works great for example.
#10
serphet
Feb 13, 2009 12:12:03 I HIGHLY recommend everyone chip in and get him the DMG, best DMG ever printed.

(not being cynical, but that book has all the info on setting these things up, also rules for monster creation [so you don't really need the MM])
#11
nowiwantmydmg
Feb 13, 2009 13:43:31
I HIGHLY recommend everyone chip in and get him the DMG, best DMG ever printed.

(not being cynical, but that book has all the info on setting these things up, also rules for monster creation [so you don't really need the MM])

The MM gives you an excellent idea of what to expect from a monster of a particular level and role, thus making it much easier to build one yourself. Having a comparison let's you ensure your monsters are neither too weak or strong, it's very helpful.
#12
serphet
Feb 13, 2009 20:00:01 I agree the MM is helpful, but if they had to choose between the two, I'd say DMG.
#13
mellored
Feb 15, 2009 9:40:00
How many elite gnolls are fair for 4 players? What about when everyone comes, and there are 6 or 7 players?

1 to 1 would be difficult but you should still have the advantage with items and action points. But more then one of those battles per day and you're just asking for a kill.

4e's xp budget of 100 per character assumes 5-6 battles per day, but if your only fighting one group per day, then 1 to 1 should keep a solid challenge.

What's the difference mechanically between elite gnolls and... um... normal gnolls? Stats? Abilities? Where can I find out?

Monsters general have 1 "at-will" and one "encounter" ability but no daily. They can also have things that players don't get, for instance, gnolls have an ability called "Pack Attack", which grants extra damage when they have someone surrounded, nothing in the PHB gives that ability.

What are your recommendations for the DM? I know he has a gnoll nation in the middle of the island, so that's not going to change.

Since he only has the PHB, i would recommend 4-5 battles per day, of 2-4 (about 1/2 the number of PC's) gnolls each. Though with poor tactics on his part, he may want to increase that a little.

And while i agree that helping him with tactics is good for the game, and will make for a more interesting battles, it's currently the only reason your party is alive. Your other players seem to know this. So don't tell him any more until he tones the encounters down, and even then don't tell him during the battle.

If he doesn't believe you, switch seats with him for a battle. Just make sure it doesn't count.
#14
mccowen
Feb 15, 2009 10:35:13 I'm going to go out on a limb here, but nearly everyone who's posted in this thread is wrong.

PC-classed gnolls aren't elite. In fact, by the sound of things, the DM has only the vaguest grasp of the rules that would be necessary to make them elite (either by applying a template, or applying one of the class templates to an existing gnoll monster).

The problem isn't that he's throwing elite monsters at you (which, as someone else mentioned, are twice as tough as normal); the problem is that he's essentially throwing PCs at you. Since he hasn't read the DMG, he probably doesn't understand that PCs and foes are fundamentally different in 4e.

Enemies generally have higher HP and defenses than PCs do, and their damage is tuned on a different scale entirely. (PC daily powers are generally too powerful, while their at-wills aren't powerful enough.) Your DM is also giving his monsters more offensive options than they really need.

Basically, he really needs the other two books (the Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide). Your game is going to continue to limp along until you have a DM that gets the rules. Amazon.com sells all three books together for $66.12 with free shipping, which is consistently the best deal out there. You can also purchase PDFs of the books from sites like RPG Drive Thru (DMG, MM), and possibly from other sites as well.

As far as giving the DM tactical advice, in your position I'd certainly stop. The other players are essentially justified in being annoyed with you, since the DM is playing the guys trying to kill your PCs. Think of it this way: your character wouldn't be shouting tactical advice to the gnolls as they attack; instead he'd be bloody glad that they staged such a poor ambush. If you have to point it out, have your character say a brief prayer to Kord (or Bane, if you swing that way) that these gnolls don't know what they're doing, and let the DM take the hint.

I do have one more suggestion. Get the other DMG and MM for yourself, familiarize yourself with the rules, and offer to run the game once the current guy wraps things up. It's significantly easier, at least mechanically, to run a game in 4e. The boards will also be perfectly willing to help you across any rough spots, and it sounds like you already have a decent intuitive grasp of how encounters should go.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nil_athelion Feb 10, 2009 15:27:40	Hello all, I'm a new player, and just started a 4e campaign with some guys in my dorm. They have played two campaigns before, both in 3.5e - DM, other players, etc. My character just got to 2nd level, and that may change things, but so far it's been a really rough ride. All the other players seem to be complaining, and I have no idea what is expected in these games - I generally play tactical computer games, etc. The problem seems to be that our campaign has us fighting a lot of raiding parties from a gnoll nation, and all of those gnolls are player-class characters. They have everything that we have, save--apparently--for action points. I play a human fighter, and against the gnoll fighters the only real difference is that I'm defense-oriented, and they are offense oriented. Combat generally starts with them leading off with a charge and their encounter powers. I've dropped from 29 to 3 HP after getting hit by two steel serpent strikes on the first round. (I know they do 1d12+3 damage, as they use battleaxes and do three damage with their reaping strikes.) They follow up with reaping strikes and the occasional come-back strike. Now, I think this is okay, as we have been surviving. They might out-number us 3:2, but in our favor we have more diversity among classes and our DM has a bad grasp of combat tactics (This, apparently, is not a gnoll trait, as the DM is more than willing to take my suggestions on strategy and tactics to help his gnolls fight better). The other players, however, think that a party of four level one PCs fighting two rangers and four fighters (all lvl 1) is unfair. I don't know, has I've never played before. I do know that when we fought a solo enemy apparently made from the monster manual, we crushed it. So that's my first question - is that unfair, or are the rest of my compatriots just whiney? What is fair, in your eyes? The second question is how to interact with this. All of the other players seem to get pissy when I explain to the DM how to stage better ambushes, how to use the enemy fighters marking abilities to protect fighting retreats, how to barricade, etc. I feel that I am completely just in improving our DM's ability to manage combats. My reasoning is that if he knows more, that's good, as he now has the option to use it or not, and thus can DM better. The players reason that me suggesting things is bad for the party. My counter is that OOC talk does not need loyalty to the party, but rather should be for the improvement of the game as a whole. Am I right in helping the DM? Should I follow the party's line, and never suggest anything that could make life harder for the party? Does the current difficulty of the encounters make any difference?
#2 nowiwantmydmg Feb 10, 2009 16:44:58	Well the DM is well within his rights to throw harder than average encounters at you, but 6 elites(a monster with a class template is an elite monster) is quite hard for 4 players. For easy encounters the XP "budget" at level 1 is 100XP per Player. An elite level one monster is 200XP, He is throwing 3 times the XP budget at you, it works out to ~ a level 5-6 encounter which should be barely survivable if you have all of your dailies and action points at the start assuming good tactics on the monsters part. With poorer tactics(I'd stop helping during combat, give advice at the end/between-if every encounter is like this) it will of course be easier to handle. Did your DM play 3.5 edition perchance? Because it sounds like he doesn't know that player class monsters are the exception and not the rule in 4th edition. Monsters and Players use different creation mechanics now and he should be using them. Gnolls by the monster manual are probably too much to handle for your group at it's current level but using goblin statistics (or another weaker monster) and calling/flavouring them as gnolls would work fine if he was hellbent on gnolls. You are perfectly right to help the DM, without feedback he won't improve, the other players sound whiney. Of course the encounter difficulty may be part of their whineiness.
#3 Ramien Feb 10, 2009 19:57:30	Those may not be elite gnolls, either. They may just be gnoll fighters using the gnoll race from either the back of the MM or the Dragon article. It's definitely a tough-sounding encounter either way.
#4 brashnir Feb 11, 2009 4:08:32	Those may not be elite gnolls, either. They may just be gnoll fighters using the gnoll race from either the back of the MM or the Dragon article. It's definitely a tough-sounding encounter either way. Using a PC built character as an enemy counts an an elite in terms of XP reward and budget.
#5 squarecircle Feb 11, 2009 4:33:55	Your DM shouldn't be throwing monsters at you with character classes, at least not until he has a better grasp of how to set up encounters. He's definitely throwing more at your party than he should. It's a wonder you've survived to 2nd level, honestly. I would expect a TPK with what you're describing... but then, I don't know the details.
#6 nil_athelion Feb 11, 2009 12:18:58	Did your DM play 3.5 edition perchance? Because it sounds like he doesn't know that player class monsters are the exception and not the rule in 4th edition. Monsters and Players use different creation mechanics now and he should be using them. Gnolls by the monster manual are probably too much to handle for your group at it's current level but using goblin statistics (or another weaker monster) and calling/flavouring them as gnolls would work fine if he was hellbent on gnolls. Yes, all the other players were playing 3.5 last semester. I think part of why we wound up fighting elite gnolls is because he only had the 4e PHB at the start of things, along with that PC-creation program from Insider. How many elite gnolls are fair for 4 players? What about when everyone comes, and there are 6 or 7 players? What's the difference mechanically between elite gnolls and... um... normal gnolls? Stats? Abilities? Where can I find out? What are your recommendations for the DM? I know he has a gnoll nation in the middle of the island, so that's not going to change.
#7 mycroftb Feb 11, 2009 18:27:00	Very roughly, normal monsters have double the HP and half the damage potential as PCs, I think. That makes the combats much more swingy. Add in the slew of options that PCs have power-wise, and it's likely that his inferior tactics were all that saved you from statistically likely death. Each PC is roughly equivalent to another PC. If you had a party of PCs facing a similar number of PC-statted monsters, then odds are about 50% that you'll win. Have another PC vs. PC battle, and odds are about 25% that you'll win both battles. Three battles would be 12.5%. And so on. That's one of the reasons the DMG recommends not statting monsters as PCs (the other is that it's too much work writing in feats and skills and powers they'll never use). I'd really recommend your DM pick up the other books, specifically the Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual. Reading through and using real monster stats will make encounters much better for you guys, and the other players shouldn't complain when you give the DM strategic advice, as that'll make it all the better when the PCs mow down the monsters. If books aren't quite in the budget, there's the Starter Set, which has the basics of DMing, encounter building, and a bunch of low-level monsters. If budget is $0, then I'd recommend looking at free adventures online for monsters to grab and existing encounters to study, like Treasure of Talon Pass, Raiders of Oakhurst, and Dungeon Magazine 155-158.
#8 volcanon2 Feb 12, 2009 14:16:41	Why are people crying "OMG UNFAIR"? Its his game, he can do what he wants. The fact that you guys aren't getting massacred means he isnt making it too hard. Would the other players prefer easy victories every single encounter?
#9 nowiwantmydmg Feb 13, 2009 11:50:23	@Volcanon2: while it's certainly not unfair (if a DM wants to throw Orcus at a level 2 party it's not unfair-it's his game), facing battles that are constantly extremely difficult does get grating, there's nothing wrong with the occassional "freebie" encounter. More than anything the lack of rules knowledge seems to be far more of an issue than DM/encounter style in any event. Yes, all the other players were playing 3.5 last semester. I think part of why we wound up fighting elite gnolls is because he only had the 4e PHB at the start of things, along with that PC-creation program from Insider. How many elite gnolls are fair for 4 players? What about when everyone comes, and there are 6 or 7 players? What's the difference mechanically between elite gnolls and... um... normal gnolls? Stats? Abilities? Where can I find out? What are your recommendations for the DM? I know he has a gnoll nation in the middle of the island, so that's not going to change. Fairness:The way it sounds like he's doing it (as equal level to you but as PCs) would be 1 elite gnoll per 2 PCs for a standard/not too hard encounter, 1.5 per 2 for a challenging encounter, 2 per 2 (1 for 1) for a hard encounter, while you can ramp up the difficulty from there, played with good monster tactics anymore than that should outright be a TPK(total party kill). Difference:In a word powers, the powers are much different, give the gnolls more flexibility/adaptability and power, a normal gnoll can't hit you for 2w or 3w damage very often(maybe 1 per encounter) but it sounds like these can. In addition class features like Hunter's Quarry, Backstab or even Combat Challenge up the difficulty and damage potential significantly.Looking at the monster manual gnoll entries compared to what your DM has written out for these monsters should illustrate the difference nicely. DM recommendations: I would recommend the DM read all 3 core books fully, make sure he understands the rules and use monsters as written until he is more familiar with the rules. I also suggest "reskinning" monsters, using goblin stats, adding gnolls unique racial ability (from the MM entry) and calling it a gnoll works great for example.
#10 serphet Feb 13, 2009 12:12:03	I HIGHLY recommend everyone chip in and get him the DMG, best DMG ever printed. (not being cynical, but that book has all the info on setting these things up, also rules for monster creation [so you don't really need the MM])
#11 nowiwantmydmg Feb 13, 2009 13:43:31	I HIGHLY recommend everyone chip in and get him the DMG, best DMG ever printed. (not being cynical, but that book has all the info on setting these things up, also rules for monster creation [so you don't really need the MM]) The MM gives you an excellent idea of what to expect from a monster of a particular level and role, thus making it much easier to build one yourself. Having a comparison let's you ensure your monsters are neither too weak or strong, it's very helpful.
#12 serphet Feb 13, 2009 20:00:01	I agree the MM is helpful, but if they had to choose between the two, I'd say DMG.
#13 mellored Feb 15, 2009 9:40:00	How many elite gnolls are fair for 4 players? What about when everyone comes, and there are 6 or 7 players? 1 to 1 would be difficult but you should still have the advantage with items and action points. But more then one of those battles per day and you're just asking for a kill. 4e's xp budget of 100 per character assumes 5-6 battles per day, but if your only fighting one group per day, then 1 to 1 should keep a solid challenge. What's the difference mechanically between elite gnolls and... um... normal gnolls? Stats? Abilities? Where can I find out? Monsters general have 1 "at-will" and one "encounter" ability but no daily. They can also have things that players don't get, for instance, gnolls have an ability called "Pack Attack", which grants extra damage when they have someone surrounded, nothing in the PHB gives that ability. What are your recommendations for the DM? I know he has a gnoll nation in the middle of the island, so that's not going to change. Since he only has the PHB, i would recommend 4-5 battles per day, of 2-4 (about 1/2 the number of PC's) gnolls each. Though with poor tactics on his part, he may want to increase that a little. And while i agree that helping him with tactics is good for the game, and will make for a more interesting battles, it's currently the only reason your party is alive. Your other players seem to know this. So don't tell him any more until he tones the encounters down, and even then don't tell him during the battle. If he doesn't believe you, switch seats with him for a battle. Just make sure it doesn't count.
#14 mccowen Feb 15, 2009 10:35:13	I'm going to go out on a limb here, but nearly everyone who's posted in this thread is wrong. PC-classed gnolls aren't elite. In fact, by the sound of things, the DM has only the vaguest grasp of the rules that would be necessary to make them elite (either by applying a template, or applying one of the class templates to an existing gnoll monster). The problem isn't that he's throwing elite monsters at you (which, as someone else mentioned, are twice as tough as normal); the problem is that he's essentially throwing PCs at you. Since he hasn't read the DMG, he probably doesn't understand that PCs and foes are fundamentally different in 4e. Enemies generally have higher HP and defenses than PCs do, and their damage is tuned on a different scale entirely. (PC daily powers are generally too powerful, while their at-wills aren't powerful enough.) Your DM is also giving his monsters more offensive options than they really need. Basically, he really needs the other two books (the Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide). Your game is going to continue to limp along until you have a DM that gets the rules. Amazon.com sells all three books together for $66.12 with free shipping, which is consistently the best deal out there. You can also purchase PDFs of the books from sites like RPG Drive Thru (DMG, MM), and possibly from other sites as well. As far as giving the DM tactical advice, in your position I'd certainly stop. The other players are essentially justified in being annoyed with you, since the DM is playing the guys trying to kill your PCs. Think of it this way: your character wouldn't be shouting tactical advice to the gnolls as they attack; instead he'd be bloody glad that they staged such a poor ambush. If you have to point it out, have your character say a brief prayer to Kord (or Bane, if you swing that way) that these gnolls don't know what they're doing, and let the DM take the hint. I do have one more suggestion. Get the other DMG and MM for yourself, familiarize yourself with the rules, and offer to run the game once the current guy wraps things up. It's significantly easier, at least mechanically, to run a game in 4e. The boards will also be perfectly willing to help you across any rough spots, and it sounds like you already have a decent intuitive grasp of how encounters should go.