On Templates, frustration, and helplessness. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

On Templates, frustration, and helplessness.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kalabajooie
Feb 18, 2012 1:23:32 I'm currently in a 3.5 game actually based in Skyrim. There are some homebrew rules to allow for the change in setting (different racial bonuses for different varieties of Human, no Dwarves, etc.) but it's largely anything goes within the confines of the SRDs. I'm playing a Fighter, my wife a Bard, another friend a Rogue, all well within the rules laid out by the PHB and other supplements. What has been getting to me lately is the fourth player's character: a Gold Half-Dragon 3.0 Samurai. Now I'm all for roleplaying along with something not normally found in a campaign setting (we call him a "deformed Argonian," the lizard-folk of the Elder Scrolls universe for those who don't know, since our characters don't know he's a Dragon) and I know that there are rules for each part of his character's description. It's how those rules are being interpreted that is making me question my will to continue merely playing along.

First, at creation, a Human with the Half-dragon template doesn't get any additional racial HD, correct? Our DM essentially gave him 3 "free" levels of Monstrous Humanoid to go with his +3 LA. I've spoken with the DM about this and he admits that mistakes may have been made during character creation.

Next, along comes level 6; that is, Character Level 6 for the PHB characters. The Half-dragon's ECL will be 6, but what is his Character Level? Near as I can tell, it should be 3: 3 levels of Samurai plus the +3 LA. He's already made (and approved) plans with the DM to take Leadership, a Feat that requires CL 6. Should this be allowed? He's also "cleared" an ECL 4 Aasimar Cleric as his first follower. Aasimar has a +1 LA, which he insists gets him a d8 HD on top of his Cleric HD, making his CL also 4. How an Aasimar has appeared in Skyrim is beyond me, but regardless I see nothing in the SRD about racial dice. That means none, right?

So as the rest of us happily follow the PHB and supplements to the letter, this half-dragon seems to be getting whatever he wants from the DM and severely breaking the game. There are times I feel like I'm simply being taken for a ride, his character at the wheel. Near as I can tell, due to all of the extra hit dice floating around, he's playing a level 9 (3 Humanoid, 3 Samurai, +3 LA) that levels like a level 6, that should be a level 3. I feel helpless to complain because he insists he's right, he's taking the DM's mistakes as gospel, and I'm not running the game, so if I "rules-lawyer" against the half-dragon, he'll get bitchy and leave.

Who's in the wrong here? Am I crazy? Should I go vent in another forum?
#2
warghoul
Feb 18, 2012 3:16:56 Talk to your dm and make sure you can back up your arguement(s) with the rules. If your dm still lets it slide I guess your choices are to deal with it or move along. Good luck.
#3
complete4th
Feb 18, 2012 13:45:24

Who's in the wrong here? Am I crazy? Should I go vent in another forum?

You should go talk to your DM, but don't put anything in terms of right and wrong. Tell him what you told us: that you feel like Mr. Half Dragon is the driver and you're just along for the ride.

By the rules, there is nothing advantageous about a LA itself. A LA doesn't give you HD, bonuses or anything else. It just makes it harder to level-up. That said, your DM might be trying to make up for the fact that LA races generally suck overall. Or the fact that the samurai class is horrendous. Maybe. But if that's his goal, he's doing it wrong -- it'd be better to suggest that Mr. Driver play a dragonborn warblade (or fighter) and call himself a half-dragon samurai.

Oh, and your DM shouldn't allow anyone to take Leadership. Broken broken broke!
#4
Unahim
Feb 18, 2012 13:49:51 You are correct. I wouldn't have let him start out like that in a level 1 game, but here is what would've happened from level 1 forward. For simplicity's sake I'll only use CR's of the same level as the normal party members for calculating xp:

Level 1: All characters lvl 1. All have 1 HD(from their class). Most people take xp as level 1's, the half-dragon takes xp as a level 4.

Party gains 1k xp, regular party members advance to level 2. The HlfDr likely gains the same amount of xp(unless you fight a lot of CR 3 creatures, but I'm assuming CR1) so he's at 7k(since he started as a 4th level character with 6k).

2000xp later the party is at 3rd level. The HlfDr is at lvl 1 with 9kxp.

Now, for every 900 xp the party gets for CR3 challenges, this guy gets 800. When the party has gained 1125, he'd have 1k and attained 2nd level at 10k. The party is currently at 4125. They currently make 20% more xp than the HlfDr.

1875 xp for the normals later, the HlfDr is at 11500, they're at 6k. They go to level 4. HlfDr is still at 2.

I'm going to take a jump here and just bump the party to 6th level with 9k xp. They're at 15k, the HlfDr is about 18700. So he's at class level 3, ECL 6(and thus levels as a level 6), 3HD. He's not level 6th, so he can't take Leadership. Period. The LA only changes his ECL, not his level. The feat talks about level, not ECL.

Also, he couldn't take the Aasimar, like you said.

He'd probably get less xp than I showed in a normal game, but there you go.
#5
kalabajooie
Feb 20, 2012 18:40:18 Thanks for the replies, guys. At least my understanding of templates is correct and my sanity is intact. I have a sneaking suspicion that my DM may be plotting to kill the character off somehow (risking the rest of us at the same time, of course), thus rendering my complaints moot. I'll show this (and the Templates entry in the MM) to the DM and we'll see how things turn out.
#6
Iry
Mar 17, 2012 9:53:38 You are correct about the way Templates work, but racial LA is really terrible and there is nothing too unbalanced about giving him Racial HD as long as he is only getting the HP/BAB/Saves associated with it and no additional powers. It will not be too long before you are laughing at his racial HD and his Samurai class and leaving him in the dust mechanically.

Feeling like he is at the steering wheel is a seperate issue because it means that the storyteller is allowing him to take and hold the spotlight more often than other characters. This should be addressed with the storyteller to ensure that you all get an equal share and have a roughly equal amount of challenges tailored to your strengths thrown your way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kalabajooie Feb 18, 2012 1:23:32	I'm currently in a 3.5 game actually based in Skyrim. There are some homebrew rules to allow for the change in setting (different racial bonuses for different varieties of Human, no Dwarves, etc.) but it's largely anything goes within the confines of the SRDs. I'm playing a Fighter, my wife a Bard, another friend a Rogue, all well within the rules laid out by the PHB and other supplements. What has been getting to me lately is the fourth player's character: a Gold Half-Dragon 3.0 Samurai. Now I'm all for roleplaying along with something not normally found in a campaign setting (we call him a "deformed Argonian," the lizard-folk of the Elder Scrolls universe for those who don't know, since our characters don't know he's a Dragon) and I know that there are rules for each part of his character's description. It's how those rules are being interpreted that is making me question my will to continue merely playing along. First, at creation, a Human with the Half-dragon template doesn't get any additional racial HD, correct? Our DM essentially gave him 3 "free" levels of Monstrous Humanoid to go with his +3 LA. I've spoken with the DM about this and he admits that mistakes may have been made during character creation. Next, along comes level 6; that is, Character Level 6 for the PHB characters. The Half-dragon's ECL will be 6, but what is his Character Level? Near as I can tell, it should be 3: 3 levels of Samurai plus the +3 LA. He's already made (and approved) plans with the DM to take Leadership, a Feat that requires CL 6. Should this be allowed? He's also "cleared" an ECL 4 Aasimar Cleric as his first follower. Aasimar has a +1 LA, which he insists gets him a d8 HD on top of his Cleric HD, making his CL also 4. How an Aasimar has appeared in Skyrim is beyond me, but regardless I see nothing in the SRD about racial dice. That means none, right? So as the rest of us happily follow the PHB and supplements to the letter, this half-dragon seems to be getting whatever he wants from the DM and severely breaking the game. There are times I feel like I'm simply being taken for a ride, his character at the wheel. Near as I can tell, due to all of the extra hit dice floating around, he's playing a level 9 (3 Humanoid, 3 Samurai, +3 LA) that levels like a level 6, that should be a level 3. I feel helpless to complain because he insists he's right, he's taking the DM's mistakes as gospel, and I'm not running the game, so if I "rules-lawyer" against the half-dragon, he'll get bitchy and leave. Who's in the wrong here? Am I crazy? Should I go vent in another forum?
#2 warghoul Feb 18, 2012 3:16:56	Talk to your dm and make sure you can back up your arguement(s) with the rules. If your dm still lets it slide I guess your choices are to deal with it or move along. Good luck.
#3 complete4th Feb 18, 2012 13:45:24	Who's in the wrong here? Am I crazy? Should I go vent in another forum? You should go talk to your DM, but don't put anything in terms of right and wrong. Tell him what you told us: that you feel like Mr. Half Dragon is the driver and you're just along for the ride. By the rules, there is nothing advantageous about a LA itself. A LA doesn't give you HD, bonuses or anything else. It just makes it harder to level-up. That said, your DM might be trying to make up for the fact that LA races generally suck overall. Or the fact that the samurai class is horrendous. Maybe. But if that's his goal, he's doing it wrong -- it'd be better to suggest that Mr. Driver play a dragonborn warblade (or fighter) and call himself a half-dragon samurai. Oh, and your DM shouldn't allow anyone to take Leadership. Broken broken broke!
#4 Unahim Feb 18, 2012 13:49:51	You are correct. I wouldn't have let him start out like that in a level 1 game, but here is what would've happened from level 1 forward. For simplicity's sake I'll only use CR's of the same level as the normal party members for calculating xp: Level 1: All characters lvl 1. All have 1 HD(from their class). Most people take xp as level 1's, the half-dragon takes xp as a level 4. Party gains 1k xp, regular party members advance to level 2. The HlfDr likely gains the same amount of xp(unless you fight a lot of CR 3 creatures, but I'm assuming CR1) so he's at 7k(since he started as a 4th level character with 6k). 2000xp later the party is at 3rd level. The HlfDr is at lvl 1 with 9kxp. Now, for every 900 xp the party gets for CR3 challenges, this guy gets 800. When the party has gained 1125, he'd have 1k and attained 2nd level at 10k. The party is currently at 4125. They currently make 20% more xp than the HlfDr. 1875 xp for the normals later, the HlfDr is at 11500, they're at 6k. They go to level 4. HlfDr is still at 2. I'm going to take a jump here and just bump the party to 6th level with 9k xp. They're at 15k, the HlfDr is about 18700. So he's at class level 3, ECL 6(and thus levels as a level 6), 3HD. He's not level 6th, so he can't take Leadership. Period. The LA only changes his ECL, not his level. The feat talks about level, not ECL. Also, he couldn't take the Aasimar, like you said. He'd probably get less xp than I showed in a normal game, but there you go.
#5 kalabajooie Feb 20, 2012 18:40:18	Thanks for the replies, guys. At least my understanding of templates is correct and my sanity is intact. I have a sneaking suspicion that my DM may be plotting to kill the character off somehow (risking the rest of us at the same time, of course), thus rendering my complaints moot. I'll show this (and the Templates entry in the MM) to the DM and we'll see how things turn out.
#6 Iry Mar 17, 2012 9:53:38	You are correct about the way Templates work, but racial LA is really terrible and there is nothing too unbalanced about giving him Racial HD as long as he is only getting the HP/BAB/Saves associated with it and no additional powers. It will not be too long before you are laughing at his racial HD and his Samurai class and leaving him in the dust mechanically. Feeling like he is at the steering wheel is a seperate issue because it means that the storyteller is allowing him to take and hold the spotlight more often than other characters. This should be addressed with the storyteller to ensure that you all get an equal share and have a roughly equal amount of challenges tailored to your strengths thrown your way.