Four players, all level 4: Paladin, Warlock, Rogue, Laser Cleric (me) vs 4 bugbears, 2 worgs, and some kind of a leader class.
This was the first encounter of the session and at first we only saw the first 4 bugbears, after we were in the room, the worgs and leader came out (my 24 passive perception and my perc check of 30 wasn't good enough to know they were there I guess) and began to own us. The paladin dropped after 5 hits, and the rogue was bloodied after the first round of combat so I used beacon of hope, popped my trinket holy symbol, and healed the pally for 60+ and the rogue by 10.
We eventually lost after 17 rounds of LONG combat. I missed 15 of my attacks. It was a level 10 encounter.
Our DM blamed our tactics and even had the moxie to say I am a power gamer because I heal so well xD.
We have talked about this with him a lot but every time he says it was tactics and not that it was a level 10 encounter for 4 level 4 characters...what can I do?
My cleric is sad and feels weak
The measure of a hero is that of his worst enemies.
Once it all wraps up, you guys know you did a tough job, and made it.
If you get TPK'd, you died trying.
Be glad it's not real weapons, and it's only a game.
Imagine if it was real. Then fight THAT way. To the death.
Feel Sad and weak?
Quit, if it's too hard. Seriously, many will suggest you do exactly that.
That being said, what is it about encounter levels that your DM doesn't get? Seriously, have him reread the DMG section on encounter levels. A Hard encounter should only be a couple levels above yours - so maybe 7 or 8 level encounter at most.
Assuming the best scenario, and that he didn't change the level of the creatures from the book at their lowest level, the Bugbears as Brutes makes them lv5 at 200XP ea., the Worg Brutes at lv9 makes them 400XP ea, and I don't even know what to do about the Leader type. Let's assume him at Lv6 standard for an avg, and put him at 250XP. That's 1850XP encounter for 4 characters = 9.5 lv. encounter. Less than 4 of those will get you to the next level (assuming you survive them) - it should take about 8-10 encounters to level you.
Tell him to reread DMG 57 and 58. Copy off the pages and bring them to him gift wrapped with a bow on it or something so that when he opens it you can tell him you just wanted to make sure that his copy of the DMG didn't somehow have a publishing error and omit those pages by accident.
On the other side of the table though, your capture could have been part of the plot and necessary for you to encounter an overwhelming foe as a result. Just saying that there may be ulterior motives there.
As my party pally, I feel your pally's pain...a few solid hits, event at lv4, can easily drop you. Most players don't understand how best to use their tank and the necessity to "spread" the damage at times.
That being said...what tactics are ya'll using? Is your party focus firing and what not? My party is similar; one paladin (mine who uses a Great Axe), one Wizard, one Rogue, and one Cleric...who uses a bow (damn elves). We are actually taking on encounters a few level higher than ours...but nothing near level 10 I imagine.
We now know that focus fire is imensely important...focus on one target until it dies, then on another, and another, etc. Usually I try my best to give the rogue a good position for his flank combat advantage. If not, the Cleric will drop something or another to give the rogue CA for one round (or the Wizard).
Crowd control through the wizard has become quite important. It doesn't seem like he does a lot, through Sleep or Color Spray, etc. but his spells do come in handy, delaying the mass of opponents for a round or two helps.
We are trying to get out cleric to drop a lot of "+ attack" bonuses for us...I usually try to line up flank, get +2 attack from Divine Glow or Lance of Faith, then Action Point/Surge my daily on a mob.
Usually I start with Righteous Smite to try give everyone temporary hitpoints.
I mark and divine challenge to draw attacks when there are multiple mobs on the rogue or one of the other characters, if they are in trouble.
With 3 Lay on Hands, I often don't need the Cleric's heals right away...my Pally is quite an independent tank and usually can handle combat for a while while laying hands on herself.
Bugbears are nasty though...very nasty. We often do our best to take out the Brutes FAST just because they are so nasty. Sometimes we split fire, having the Cleric and Wizard attack the backline Artillery, mainly to draw their fire while my pally and rogue slowly whittle away their front line.
The toughest battles though, have been situation where my pally was out of armor. There's been several ocassions where she engaged in combat out of armor (who the hell sleeps in plate?) which forces a TON of heals on her.
Just some thoughts.
Fox
If he's saying it's tactics, here's a thought... Suggest this, see what he says. Ask him to show you how you could have done better. YOU DM the exact same encounter, using his notes, while HE runs the party. Do everything face-up on the table, out in the open. See how well he does against the encounter set up. Either you'll learn something, or he will.
Is this a typical encounter for your party? I mean, do you run up against combats this difficult EVERY encounter? Or, was this something he set up as a required part of his adventure? (Example: Waking up in their prison leads you into a dungeon, where the fun ACTUALLY is.)
If he's saying it's tactics, here's a thought... Suggest this, see what he says. Ask him to show you how you could have done better. YOU DM the exact same encounter, using his notes, while HE runs the party. Do everything face-up on the table, out in the open. See how well he does against the encounter set up. Either you'll learn something, or he will.
He was expecting us to win that encounter, we didn't want to be "dead dead" so he had us wake up in prison in the shadow fell instead. We broke out, and had some fairly tough encounters because we were naked for three hours of the session. We found our stuff and continued when we came to the only way out which had 4 magical turrets, 4 soldiers, and 2 archers shooting through arrow slits. The turrets consistently rolled in the 30s and did 15 damage each and they themselves could not be damaged. We got out of this one because of luck in my opinion...the rogue rolled 3 crits, the pally got 2, and the warlock got a personal record of 6.
That was the only way out and when we hung around outside the room to avoid the turrets, the DM said we had 8 rounds to get out or the entire army would get us. Our only choice was through the death trap room.
After that encounter we had to fight a level 7 encounter without getting our encounters back and our daily powers had already been used as well.
We survived that and then fell into a pit trap because at level 4 a perception check of 33 simply isn't good enough to see one. We were then captured and jailed again.
...We eventually lost after 17 rounds of LONG combat. I missed 15 of my attacks. It was a level 10 encounter.
Our DM blamed our tactics and even had the moxie to say I am a power gamer because I heal so well xD.
We have talked about this with him a lot but every time he says it was tactics and not that it was a level 10 encounter for 4 level 4 characters.....
Did you roll poorly? Because if you rolled pretty decently, there's the problem right there. Missing 15 times is a bit suspect, which makes me feel that these monsters were far and above you all, and you were lucky to survive as long as you did.
Speaking as a DM, from what information you gave, this DM is at fault. I would ask to see the monsters XP value and ensure the level of the encounter before I take it too far. Obviously this is a sticking point. If these types of encounters are common, and he really feels your tactics are to blame, have him tell you his idea of 'tactics'.
Yes, retreat is an option, but this 4e is made to make you feel heroic. Heroes don't run away. True, every so often, you do come to an encounter that bests you, but it should never be completely out of reach if you all are completely fresh. If they are, the DM stacked the deck against you unfairly.
Did you wade through any other encounters that day before this one?
He was expecting us to win that encounter, we didn't want to be "dead dead" so he had us wake up in prison in the shadow fell instead. We broke out, and had some fairly tough encounters because we were naked for three hours of the session. We found our stuff and continued when we came to the only way out which had 4 magical turrets, 4 soldiers, and 2 archers shooting through arrow slits. The turrets consistently rolled in the 30s and did 15 damage each and they themselves could not be damaged. We got out of this one because of luck in my opinion...the rogue rolled 3 crits, the pally got 2, and the warlock got a personal record of 6.
That was the only way out and when we hung around outside the room to avoid the turrets, the DM said we had 8 rounds to get out or the entire army would get us. Our only choice was through the death trap room.
After that encounter we had to fight a level 7 encounter without getting our encounters back and our daily powers had already been used as well.
We survived that and then fell into a pit trap because at level 4 a perception check of 33 simply isn't good enough to see one. We were then captured and jailed again.
33 failed?
What?
According to DMG, the trap was level 13 or higher (the sample traps at level 13 have DC around 33). Why there was such a powerful trap made foe you guys: I haven't the clue.
I'd ask the DM, why a 33 failed... something is wrong here.
Did you wade through any other encounters that day before this one?
That was the first encounter of that day. We had to rest from the previous day after fighting a giant zombie the DM made up that had 2 standards, one move, and one minor every round. When hit by a melee attack, as an immediate reaction it would make a melee basic attack. He had to have an npc come in to save us since it two shot dropped the paladin, used an action point and nearly dropped the rogue in the first round of combat.
I don't understand why he is DMing like this, he never used to. Is it possible he is used to us making semi broken characters in 3.5? I love 4e so much but each encounter takes a very long time and a random encounter will often make us all use a daily. Maybe I am just bad with the system and having two strikers and only one defender and one leader (me) is a bad combo. I am not blaming the system at all, it's just that multiple high level encounters seem to take a very long time.
He was expecting us to win that encounter, we didn't want to be "dead dead" so he had us wake up in prison in the shadow fell instead. We broke out, and had some fairly tough encounters because we were naked for three hours of the session. We found our stuff and continued when we came to the only way out which had 4 magical turrets, 4 soldiers, and 2 archers shooting through arrow slits. The turrets consistently rolled in the 30s and did 15 damage each and they themselves could not be damaged. We got out of this one because of luck in my opinion...the rogue rolled 3 crits, the pally got 2, and the warlock got a personal record of 6.
That was the only way out and when we hung around outside the room to avoid the turrets, the DM said we had 8 rounds to get out or the entire army would get us. Our only choice was through the death trap room.
After that encounter we had to fight a level 7 encounter without getting our encounters back and our daily powers had already been used as well.
We survived that and then fell into a pit trap because at level 4 a perception check of 33 simply isn't good enough to see one. We were then captured and jailed again.
Woah woah woah.
A 33 wasn't good enough? This DM is guilty of railroading you, but he thinks these are decent challenges.
A DC for a skill challenge for 4th level characters is never supposed to go above 26. a 26 is considered HARD. You got trapped by a pit for a character at least level 19 - and that's Hard. Send him to page 81 of the DMG and smack him in the face.
And if those turrets are the ones predefined in the DMG, like i bet they were the ones on page 88 - the magic crossbow turret... he put four... FOUR of those? those are each 150xp. A standard encounter for 4 4ths is 700xp. Now as you state, those were 4 soldiers and 2 archers, meaning they weren't minions. If they were the same level as the turret, level 3, they were each 150xp. 1500xp for this encounter, which puts it right on the precipice of the hardest encounter you can possibly face, and expect to survive.
Lets not forget that the archers were behind superior cover for most the fight. That skews the battle directly in their favor and should be accounted for in the encounter. This was too tough.
Then without dailies - as you rightly used them up in an incredibly difficult encounter, ran into one almost as tough, with no resources.. yet you survived that barely too. Then to be trapped by an unfindable pit?
He is screwing you all over horribly. I would be tempted to quit this or demand a new DM. The DM is not supposed to be an Asshat to the players. Point him to the first pages of the DMG where it says the DM is not the adversary, because he is playing like he is out to get you, even if he doesn't realize it.
I can share your sympathy. I would suggest flipping through the DMG and showing your DM the part that says, "no more then 6 levels" but that doesn't always mean ALWAYS 6 levels!
Our DM blamed our tactics and even had the moxie to say I am a power gamer because I heal so well xD.
The DM is an idiot. In fact, he warrants being shot. With a hammer.
Although, there is one tactic you could have used in this encounter. It's called knowing when to run. Get the hell outta there. If it's too hard, live to fight another day. A good hero knows when he's bit off more than he can chew and does the best he can to make due.
Occasionally, something crazy should go down. Keeps a party on their toes. All the time? There's no fun in that for anyone but the DM, and that's only if he's sadistic.
Maybe try talking to him and saying "We don't like the feeling that no matter where we go, we're fighting things that only luck can allow us to beat." IMHO, he needs to tone down the encounters a little bit, and maybe take a look at pacing and foreshadowing as well.
Encounter Level Difficulty: Too Hard (1600)
4 PCs
Party Level 4
Send your DM a link to the bonus tools for dndinsider. Encounter builder is a great tool and it will prevent him from making these kinds of mistakes.
Does this DM want to play 4th. Did someone steal his Dew. Something had to happen for him to be making unbeatable encounters consistently. Unless he has no idea what he is doing with 4th. Did he buy the DMG and Monster Manual or is he just skimming thinking he knows what he is doing because he dmed before.
This reminds me of my good friend the railroading control freak DM that spent 10 minutes yelling at our tiefling fighter about whether or not he had the skill tactics.
Your DM has forgotten that the game is a shared experience between players and DM. You need a new DM. Get a new one before this lousy DM ruins your love of 4e.
Also, you should show your DM this thread. He may not listen to you, but may take a hint when he sees the number and variety of responses this thread has gotten.
-SYB
Either your GM doesn't know how to build encounters properly or he's beating on you for kicks. If he tells you it was your tactics that lost the encounter you should definitely make him play through it as your party. If he pulls some unlikely solution out of his crapflap (like pulling the cleverly concealed "kill the bad guys" level on the wall,) then you know he's railroading. If that's the case, you need a new DM. If he struggles with it, loses, and says, "OK, so maybe that was a little too tough," lesson learned; problem solved.
The crack about you being a powergamer for healing that much leads me to believe he's beating on you for kicks, and didn't like that it took a little more work than he thought it would. I'd like to be wrong, though.
Also, you should show your DM this thread. He may not listen to you, but may take a hint when he sees the number and variety of responses this thread has gotten.
-SYB
Question: assuming the DM being discussed wouldn't listen to those who's opinions actually count (IE; his players), why would he care what a bunch of strangers on-line think??
So... party level +5 encounter while out-numbering the party, yeah... definitely designed either incorrectly, or to be intentionally stacked against the party.
I used to play under a DM like that... and after repeatedly explaining that a game is meant to be fun, not infuriatingly difficult, I was given the response "It must be fun though, you're still playing." So I basically had to not only quit playing, but refuse to join any game run by him because of severe distaste for his preferred play style.
I'll be honest, not every DM is good (or bad) for every player.
When the fun of beating the odds fades... become a DM, and DM differently.
So if your DM has jacked up the monsters an extra 3 levels, then either he's:
a) insanely overestimating how powerful your party is
b) has given you an insane amount of magical gear and thinks that he can compensate by ramping up the difficulty three levels
c) is assuming that your party will always be taking extended rests after every single fight and therefore should be able to fight things a few levels higher all the time. (Which goes against the way 4th edition is designed, whereby parties are expected to complete a couple of milestones between extended rests. The idea in 4th is to fight multiple "average" encounters in a row, not single-shot "very hard" encounters all the time.)
d) some or all of the above
Therefore no matter how you slice it, the DM is at fault in my opinion.
1 - Purchase or aquire a sturdy metal folding chair.
2 - Place your DM, henceforth refered to as Steve, in the chair.
3 - Say the words: "Steve, you are being a (fill in prefered term describing Steve), we, as a group, are not having fun. Stop it."
[INDENT]A - If Steve agrees, procede to step 5[/INDENT]
[INDENT]B - If Steve disagrees, procede to step 4[/INDENT]
4 - Have Steve stand up, fold the chair, and hit Steve on and around the head, no less than twice, no more than eight times.
[INDENT]A - If Steve is conscious, go back to step 2[/INDENT]
[INDENT]B - If Steve is unconscious, wait until he wakes up and go back to step 2[/INDENT]
5 - Go back to playing, glad in the fact you found a diplomatic solution.
This has always been my prefered method for dealing with unreasonable individuals. :D
edit:
I might make an encounter like that for the BBEG but, that's about it. And here I thought me making Enc Lvl 5-6s for my group was a little tough for average battles.
The DM blamed our tactics and even had the moxie to say I am a power gamer because I heal so well xD.
We have talked about this with him a lot but every time he says it was tactics and not that it was a level 10 encounter for 4 level 4 characters...what can I do?
My cleric is sad and feels weak
Without taking away from what others have said about encounter levels, this is the Big Red Flag for me. The encounter was too high to be considered 'fair' for the group, and the DM not only blames the players, he slams an *effective* player for being too good?
Being a tough DM is one thing. Running the occasional really tough encounter is another thing. But running multiple tough encounters - which are defined in the rulebook as being too tough, as in beyond 'hard' - and then taunting and insulting the players about it!?!BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!! I'm sorry! Thank you for playing. Next contestant, please?
Oh, and for those who suggest that running away is an option? That only works if the GM is willing to *let* you run away. Having the monsters chase you down anyway is an option, too - and if the DM is happy to throw mega-encounters at me, I'm not going to be real confident that the DM is going to give me a fair shake at getting away. There's no indication, in the info we have, that the DM is open to that solution or not.
My DM likes to say to remember that retreat is always an option.
As a DM I agree that retreat is always an option if you are being outmatched.
P.S. if non of that works bring in real world physics, this is a last resort but I once killed a rock by luring it up high into the atmosphere and freezing its wings mind you I had to use its body to cushion my fall other wise I would have died from the fall too. (fear my oath of poverty half celestial monk)
Our DM blamed our tactics and even had the moxie to say I am a power gamer because I heal so well xD.
This.
It seems that you've been exceeding his expectations of what you can take, and he has raised the stakes to a point that you will be hurt.
I've had previous DMs who will become enraged that a lowly PC could have a power that negates the encounter he worked so hard over.
Examples:
Show
In 3.5, our Wizard unleashed an Evard's Black Tentacles that ended a significant encounter; next week, the party faced a room full of enchanted chains very similar to E'sBT. A couple of weeks later, our Half-Dragon Fighter (who the DM often verbally chastened as broken) got a "
you" delivered to him by the DM via a pit leading into a Vorpal Blender.
Just 1 month ago in 4ed, I had a DM who flat-out cheated (ignoring Steel Serpent Strike's no-shift and slow ability) to let his Whirling Dervish BBEG move 14 squares and hit every party member.
you" delivered to him by the DM via a pit leading into a Vorpal Blender. Just 1 month ago in 4ed, I had a DM who flat-out cheated (ignoring Steel Serpent Strike's no-shift and slow ability) to let his Whirling Dervish BBEG move 14 squares and hit every party member.
Bad news -- god hates you.
Options:
1) Try tatics. Kill the leader. Tag team. Whatever.
2) Retreat. Get help. Hire some fodder.
3) Retreat. set a trap. Lure and ensnare.
4) Confront. Negotiate. Roll high on Diplomancy.
Need tatics? Try " I'M NERVOUS ABOUT PLAYING SPORTS AT MY COMPANY RETREAT" video here (yes, you have to sit through the 30 sec ad)
100% of the time, if the game isn't fun it's the DM's fault. The DM writes (or customizes, in the case of off the shelf) adventures. The DM is responsible for maintaining both the players and the characters (meaning, if there is a personality issue at the game table, and the players can't or won't work it out, the DM needs to step in, out of game, and help fix it). It is my complete opinion that if the game isn't fun, it's the DM's fault
100% of the time.
I take DMing very seriously, and I hold myself to this standad. I don't just talk, I walk the walk. I even ask my players from time to time things like " As a DM, what could I be doing better" or "if you had to tell me to change one thing, what ywould it be". After game day, I thank them all for coming, letting them know how much fun I had. I even E-mail them once in a while to talk game.
your DM irks me, blaming others and not himself.
For this opinion, I get alot of grief from other DM's, but it has never changed my opionion (I love to DM and have been doing it non-stop for years):
100% of the time, if the game isn't fun it's the DM's fault.
Amen!
Though, to refine it a bit, I'd say that if the game isn't fun, it's the DM's responsibility. The 'fault' does not always lie with the DM as such - there are times when a player is so awful that it ruins the game (at least until the DM throws him/her out), or outside-world events intrude. A point largely of semantics, perhaps, but when helping DM's (or myself) learn how to do it better, it's easier to get past the idea of 'fault' and not beat oneself up about it; just take responsibility for doing better in the future.
That quibble aside, this is an excellent stance to take when DMing or assessing the DMing of others.
Bottom line: direct open communication. If the other players agree that its not fun then tell the DM. Do it nicely, as a group. If he has a fit then he is more concerned about his own agenda than making sure the players have fun, which is the #1 job of DM. If he is really a prick about it consider selecting a new DM, or finding some other people to game with. The art to be a DM is to provide challenges, and make the players worry, but still let them be the heroes. Your DM needs to get in touch with the numbers in the DMG.
100% of the time, if the game isn't fun it's the DM's fault.
I deduce that one of the following may be true for you:
- You cannot discern when you have a disruptive player, who for some reason, draws his or her enjoyment off of inhibiting other people's enjoyment.
- If this is the case, it might be very true for you. Because you lack the ability to recognize the person at fault, you scapegoat the DM.
- You believe it is the DM's fault that said player from situation 1 could not be reasoned with, no matter how unreasonable the person is. It's never a player's fault for being obstinate, but rather the DM must have infinite patience.
- The problem with this is that it assumes that the DM must take all the responsibility and the players don't have to take any. The players can be the most difficult people on the planet to play with and the DM must be perfect. The truth is that we're all human. The DM is not at fault for other people's short comings.
- You have never had said player from situation 1 in your games. As you have not experienced an person who exhibits disruptive behavior and therefor believe no such player exists. You are among one of the luckiest gamers ever.
- Ignorance is bliss, huh?
- You feel it is the DM's responsibility to step up, be the *******, and kick the disruptive player from the game, as all attempts to satiate the disruptive player's need for sowing dissent have failed.
- If this is the case, I agree with you. I have been in this boat before. You look like the bad guy, but you're really the good guy restoring the order by throwing out the bad apple who refuses to play well with others.
- You've never played with someone who's ADD or ADHD. They'll lose interest for a while.
- I know too many of these people. Sometimes their attention is just elsewhere. You're doing nothing wrong. They'll come back to the game when they're ready. They aren't enjoying the game, in those moments, because of their mental attention pattern, not your inability to entice them.
While I agree, it can often be because the DM has too little willingness to communicate with their players to create a game that's enjoyable for all, communication is two ways. Whether it's the DM or player, communication is two ways, and whoever refuses to communicate is at fault.
Shifting the blame onto the DM who is unable to deal with a problem player (as long as he tries within reason) is just as bad as shifting the problem onto a player for poor DMing. Either way you've created a scapegoat to distract from the real issue at hand.
The real solution is not to try to find who's to blame (Pointing fingers is for children and politicians) but rather to see what's wrong. From there everyone should honestly take steps towards fixing the problems. Everyone's playing together. It's a social game. We all have a responsibility to each other.
I deduce that one of the following may be true for you:
- You cannot discern when you have a disruptive player, who for some reason, draws his or her enjoyment off of inhibiting other people's enjoyment.
- If this is the case, it might be very true for you. Because you lack the ability to recognize the person at fault, you scapegoat the DM.
- You believe it is the DM's fault that said player from situation 1 could not be reasoned with, no matter how unreasonable the person is. It's never a player's fault for being obstinate, but rather the DM must have infinite patience.
- The problem with this is that it assumes that the DM must take all the responsibility and the players don't have to take any. The players can be the most difficult people on the planet to play with and the DM must be perfect. The truth is that we're all human. The DM is not at fault for other people's short comings.
- You have never had said player from situation 1 in your games. As you have not experienced an person who exhibits disruptive behavior and therefor believe no such player exists. You are among one of the luckiest gamers ever.
- Ignorance is bliss, huh?
- You feel it is the DM's responsibility to step up, be the *******, and kick the disruptive player from the game, as all attempts to satiate the disruptive player's need for sowing dissent have failed.
- If this is the case, I agree with you. I have been in this boat before. You look like the bad guy, but you're really the good guy restoring the order by throwing out the bad apple who refuses to play well with others.
- You've never played with someone who's ADD or ADHD. They'll lose interest for a while.
- I know too many of these people. Sometimes their attention is just elsewhere. You're doing nothing wrong. They'll come back to the game when they're ready. They aren't enjoying the game, in those moments, because of their mental attention pattern, not your inability to entice them.
While I agree, it can often be because the DM has too little willingness to communicate with their players to create a game that's enjoyable for all, communication is two ways. Whether it's the DM or player, communication is two ways, and whoever refuses to communicate is at fault.
Shifting the blame onto the DM who is unable to deal with a problem player (as long as he tries within reason) is just as bad as shifting the problem onto a player for poor DMing. Either way you've created a scapegoat to distract from the real issue at hand.
The real solution is not to try to find who's to blame (Pointing fingers is for children and politicians) but rather to see what's wrong. From there everyone should honestly take steps towards fixing the problems. Everyone's playing together. It's a social game. We all have a responsibility to each other.
lol...thanks for that. My players laughed at that...was a great "before game" socilization. For the record, none of that is right, but it's not like any of us expect you to know me.
I stand by my assesment of the situation. I will say tho, Enlightened1 is right, I ment "responsibility" rather then "fault".
If you've got players who are consistantly not having a good time, you've dropped the ball. (Mind, the occasional tail-kicking is good for a party's humility, key word here is CONSISTANTLY.)
And, yes, Sphyre, occasionally some players do ruin the fun for everyone else... However, IMHO, it's the DM's job to handle it. If the rest of the players step up to bat, awesome, however, ultimately, it's the DM who's got the final say.
lol...thanks for that. My players laughed at that...was a great "before game" socilization. For the record, none of that is right, but it's not like any of us expect you to know me.
Heh, I'm glad you detected my sarcasm; it would have been a shame if it were to go unnoticed or if one of the examples were actually true about you.
I stand by my assesment of the situation. I will say tho, Enlightened1 is right, I ment "responsibility" rather then "fault".
It's everyone's responsibility, but the DM has the most sway because if a player issues the ultimatum "Grow up (or what's appropriate for the situation) or I'm leaving" the game can still exist with one less player. When the DM issues that ultimatum, the whole group may fall apart, or in the very least, a new campaign must be started with a different DM.
Explain to him how would HE Have Used tastics and such and listen to him then Just say what you would have done Via the monsters and such.
Listen and complain this way Let him know that by the rules he shouldnt be Doing this.
That and Have the group quit that game and go off and make someone eles become the DM and just ignore his remarks That is if worse comes to Worse.
That is to say, every encounter we do feels INCREDIBLY hard. It is getting to be a little unbearable as of late, especially since 2 sessions ago the entire party wiped from a group of bugbears and woke up in prison. This is the encounter:
Four players, all level 4: Paladin, Warlock, Rogue, Laser Cleric (me) vs 4 bugbears, 2 worgs, and some kind of a leader class.
This was the first encounter of the session and at first we only saw the first 4 bugbears, after we were in the room, the worgs and leader came out (my 24 passive perception and my perc check of 30 wasn't good enough to know they were there I guess) and began to own us. The paladin dropped after 5 hits, and the rogue was bloodied after the first round of combat so I used beacon of hope, popped my trinket holy symbol, and healed the pally for 60+ and the rogue by 10.
We eventually lost after 17 rounds of LONG combat. I missed 15 of my attacks. It was a level 10 encounter.
Our DM blamed our tactics and even had the moxie to say I am a power gamer because I heal so well xD.
We have talked about this with him a lot but every time he says it was tactics and not that it was a level 10 encounter for 4 level 4 characters...what can I do?
My cleric is sad and feels weak
Okay show us where the bad DM touched you. Use the doll....ACTION FIGURE I mean.
You calculated a CR 10 encounter and you guys are a group of 4 level 4s.
Tell the DM that is not fun. If he asks why, say some choo choo noises.
Now I realize CRs are a guideline and not a rule, but being 6 CR levels above the party is not EVER a good idea unless:
Players are gestalt. Even then, it would be a rough fight.
Players are uber powergamers. And by that I mean a 50 point build and serious min-maxing.
Players get some sort of major tactical advantage. For example, the bugbears are all currently at half hit points due to being just after a battle, or the players will catch them sleeping without their armor on. (but the guard sees them so they just get a surprise round and the bugbears lose the next turn while they arm themselves.)
Barring that, learn to run. Make sure your friends are willing to do so as well. If the DM pulls some fiat out of his arse to make it to you can't run, then simply do this:
You: I run.
DM: Nope you can't. The bugbears hired a goblin to close the door behind you and lock it with an unpickable unbreakable lock.
You: Then I walk.
DM: You can't walk anywhere because the goblin has.....where are you going?
*you walk out the door*
Edit: I thought this was a 3.5 encounter, my bad. Still, you calculated the XP value to be that of a level 10 encounter? Were these at least around level 4 creatures? If not then the encounter is seriously unbalanced. The game is DESIGNED so you have a harder time hitting and taking down things above your level, so if the leader class was level 8, then he was totally unbalanced for the encounter.
For this opinion, I get alot of grief from other DM's, but it has never changed my opionion (I love to DM and have been doing it non-stop for years):
100% of the time, if the game isn't fun it's the DM's fault. The DM writes (or customizes, in the case of off the shelf) adventures. The DM is responsible for maintaining both the players and the characters (meaning, if there is a personality issue at the game table, and the players can't or won't work it out, the DM needs to step in, out of game, and help fix it). It is my complete opinion that if the game isn't fun, it's the DM's fault
100% of the time.
I take DMing very seriously, and I hold myself to this standad. I don't just talk, I walk the walk. I even ask my players from time to time things like " As a DM, what could I be doing better" or "if you had to tell me to change one thing, what ywould it be". After game day, I thank them all for coming, letting them know how much fun I had. I even E-mail them once in a while to talk game.
your DM irks me, blaming others and not himself.
Ya this DM Is at Fault but Games failing coz of DMS 100% Of the time?
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Seriusly So A Player who wants to turn around and kill off the players turn around and steal there stuff and all that jazz is never at fault?
So theres no such thing as a Bad Player?
If only if that was true.
As an example, I was in a group that got TPK'd in the first session (not necessarily unusual I'll warrant). However, as the last of us was going down the DM blurted "Oh crap, I totally misread this template". In other words, he thought the template only slightly raised the level of the monster. Instead it raised them a couple levels which ended up being way too harsh for a level 1 party.
I would also go with Rainkiss' suggestion. Have the DM play the encounter as the party with one of you running the monsters. If he shows you a flaw in your tactics then great, everyone learns something. Otherwise, I suspect that what will happen is the DM will also get reamed in which case he hopefully learns a lesson.
I suspect that for whatever reason though the DM is playing a you vs. him game. The biggest evidence of this is 33 Perception check failing. That reeks of "Awesome, this is a cool trap that will get them captured, and will provide lots of fun for everyone. A 33?? wtf? Ummmm yeah I'll just say that it was DC 35 that way nobody misses their fun." And by "their fun" I'm referring to the DM's fun.
To Korgoth: I believe that the point that was trying to be made is that players absolutely can be a problem and disruptive. In which case its the DM's responsibility to either a) convince said player to correct his ways or b) boot the player from the game. So in your example the player would be "at fault" but so too would the DM if he did nothing about it.
Lesson that should be learned by everyone of course is that D&D is a cooperative game, not an adversarial one.
Your DM needs to lower the difficulty. Get your players together and tell your DM to take the game out of "extra hard" play and set it to "moderate".
Your DM's style sounds like he's been around since 1e (as in, a player vs. DM mentality is encouraged: against a 5th level party, trap the trap on the door with a harder (5% chance of detection) trap that is set off by disarming the "easy" trap without first disarming the harder trap, or by opening the door. Give both traps a range of 15 feet so that they're still affected if they spring them with a 10 foot pole, but make it look like a 10-foot pole will do the trick. The DM tells the PCs this. If the easy trap is sprung, 10 darts for each PC coated with type F poison (that was death/20 in 2e) shoot out of the wall, with a 20% hit rate each, and if the harder trap is sprung, all PCs within 11 feet get hit with a disintegrate spell. If the traps are both successfully disarmed, the PCs are rewarded with 5 gp, a rusty dagger, and a grumpy DM who then teleports the PCs into a chamber with hurricane-force winds where Orcus appears and chases them off a greased ledge into a lava pit filled with spikes enchanted to withstand the heat. The DM then has Orcus resurrect the PCs just to drop them naked onto a sphere of annihilation).
...against a 5th level party, trap the trap on the door with a harder (5% chance of detection) trap that is set off by disarming the "easy" trap without first disarming the harder trap, or by opening the door. Give both traps a range of 15 feet so that they're still affected if they spring them with a 10 foot pole, but make it look like a 10-foot pole will do the trick. The DM tells the PCs this. If the easy trap is sprung, 10 darts for each PC coated with type F poison (that was death/20 in 2e) shoot out of the wall, with a 20% hit rate each, and if the harder trap is sprung, all PCs within 11 feet get hit with a disintegrate spell. If the traps are both successfully disarmed, the PCs are rewarded with 5 gp, a rusty dagger, and a grumpy DM who then teleports the PCs into a chamber with hurricane-force winds where Orcus appears and chases them off a greased ledge into a lava pit filled with spikes enchanted to withstand the heat. The DM then has Orcus resurrect the PCs just to drop them naked onto a sphere of annihilation).
Wasn't that in Tomb of Horrors? ;)
All kidding aside, though, the DM vs. Players mentality is a sure sign of a diseased game that's going to die, and the sooner the better. The long, lingering death where none of the players has the nuggets to step forward, say, "Enough, get out of my chair, I'm DMing starting next week" is the worst.
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Your DM's style sounds like he's been around since 1e (as in, a player vs. DM mentality is encouraged: against a 5th level party, trap the trap on the door with a harder (5% chance of detection) trap that is set off by disarming the "easy" trap without first disarming the harder trap, or by opening the door. Give both traps a range of 15 feet so that they're still affected if they spring them with a 10 foot pole, but make it look like a 10-foot pole will do the trick. The DM tells the PCs this. If the easy trap is sprung, 10 darts for each PC coated with type F poison (that was death/20 in 2e) shoot out of the wall, with a 20% hit rate each, and if the harder trap is sprung, all PCs within 11 feet get hit with a disintegrate spell. If the traps are both successfully disarmed, the PCs are rewarded with 5 gp, a rusty dagger, and a grumpy DM who then teleports the PCs into a chamber with hurricane-force winds where Orcus appears and chases them off a greased ledge into a lava pit filled with spikes enchanted to withstand the heat. The DM then has Orcus resurrect the PCs just to drop them naked onto a sphere of annihilation).
This is pretty accurate, but I don't think that the mentality was necessarily Players verse DM, but more of the "Its the players fault for not rolling 20s every single time" mentality.
If playing First edition, my advice is to not get attached to your characters. You can have fun, but operate under the assumption that he WILL die. You might not even want to NAME him.
We survived that and then fell into a pit trap because at level 4 a perception check of 33 simply isn't good enough to see one. We were then captured and jailed again.
Wow, they are good.
So walking along rolling a 33 on your perception check you were able to count all grains of sand on each rock you passed, discern the 7 different scents of the flowers in the courtyard, mentally calculate the paths of every arrow launched from the tower based solely echoing patterns of the shafts flying through the air; but, you missed the pit.
I'd say they are really good at hiding their pit traps.
Why don't you quit your party now, and join their team! :lightbulb
+2 for 4th level
+2 for being an elf
+5 for training
+3 for skill focus
+5 for 20 or 21 in Wisdom (18 + 2 racial +1 eventually at 4th)
This gives a total maximum achievable bonus of +17 and a maximum possible roll of 37. If 33 was not enough, let's imagine the difficulty was 34.
The best possible 4th level character had to roll 17 or more to detect it (1 in 5 chance). If he has no skill focus then he needs a 20.
This tells me that the DM simply wanted you to end in that trap. I believe the trap wasn't even there before you managed to survive the previous encounter and he added it on the fly to let you not "win". If you had rolled a 37 he would have told you that it was not enough and raised the difficulty to 38.
Well The DM IS At Fault hear.
Explain to him how would HE Have Used tastics and such and listen to him then Just say what you would have done Via the monsters and such.
Listen and complain this way Let him know that by the rules he shouldnt be Doing this.
That and Have the group quit that game and go off and make someone eles become the DM and just ignore his remarks That is if worse comes to Worse.
Your avatar looks like he has whity tighties on his face. LOL!