Outlandish Arcane Research Rules - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Outlandish Arcane Research Rules

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
keytap
Sep 27, 2008 18:52:52 I'm playing in a 3.5e Dragonlance campaign, and the DM doesn't allow spells outside of the PHBI, PHBII, and Dragonlance books. The only other book allowed is the Spell Compendium, and even then, you must personally research the spells out of the book with checks/money/whatnot.

Divine spellcasters just make a Concentration check to see if they can prepare a spell that would normally not be allowed. From what I can tell, the DC is something like 15 + spell level - (0.5 * caster level), though it changes all the time. And at our level, a DC 15-20 Concentration check is easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy.

Arcane spellcasters, according to him, must spend money on researching the spells. "Okay," I says, "what'll it cost me to learn Voice of the Dragon?" He then formulates, on the spot, an absurd set of rules to determine the price. He rolls a d%, multiplies it by the spell level, and then rolls some dice (not sure which, they're behind the screen) to determine how many days of research it takes.

So Voice of the Dragon, in the end, would cost me about 600 stl (steel is substituted for gold in Dragonlance for those who don't know), when I only have about 1600 stl. Note that I have yet to buy anything this campaign that cost more than 10 stl, so I've been saving for quite a while. I'm 8th level.

So it'd cost me 600 stl to learn the spell, and another 400 stl to put it into my spellbook. 1000 stl for a single 4th level spell? Methinks not. So I try a different spell, a 3rd level spell. This one would cost me 60 stl, according to his dice rolls. From 1000 stl to 60 stl? What kind of sensible rules allow for that much deviation?

Is this normal? I declined every offer, and decided I would never attempt to learn a spell from the Spell Compendium, since he tells me the cost per day, and not even how many days it would take. I could continuously funnel my money into a level 2 spell that is costing me 200 stl a day for who knows how long, and never have a clue as to how much more it would take.

Are there rules for researching spells? It's just ridiculous.

Also, is it just me, or should an 8th level character have more than 1600 gp?
#2
arashidrgn
Sep 27, 2008 23:04:14 It seems to me that he's using made up on the spot rules. Their are rules for researching extra spells in the PHB I believe, but the cost of researching a new spell is typically in the thousands of gold. I don't now if gold values in dragon lance are different from the standard, but 1600 (monetary units) sounds exceptionally low for 8th level, especially considering you haven't been spending much.

Tell him it's not exactly balanced for divine classes to get their extra spells without spending a dime, and with a skill check that is typically very easy. I have a similar DM who hands out magical weapons and armor for the melee combatants like it's candy, but puts useless and restrictive handicaps on the casters.
#3
keytap
Sep 27, 2008 23:29:21 I can understand researching new spells being very expensive, but like you said, I feel like I should be allowed to get at least a few cool new tricks without bankrupting myself when the cleric on the other end of the table is popping holy storms left and right as long as he can make DC 17 Concentration checks once a day.
#4
kalanth
Sep 27, 2008 23:48:18 Sounds like this DM is not fully understanding Dragonlance, much less the resurch options. Depending on the age, the Wizards are a bit more dominating than the clerics. Even in the most recent age the wizard has more power, as they were the first to understand and learn to control their powers with the change in the world. Things are kinda back to normal now as well, so what occured with the world being stolen and all should not be an issue.

Money wise the Stl is worth more than GP, but the standard DM just shifts the exchange table over one to make it line up better. At 8th level you should be worth 27,000 gp (DMG, Pg 135) and not 1600... If the DM argues that Dragonlance is a lower wealth world (I used to DM it, and I was in that belief) then he should be brought to understand that you are the heroes and the focus of the game. You should be different and powerful. Your skills make you stand above the common man. What he is doing is making the heroes average in a world that is anything but average.
#5
keytap
Sep 28, 2008 0:02:33 I did forget to mention that I have a totally badass staff. But it counts as my Item of Power I got from the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class, so I'm not sure if it can be used to validate my lack of funds at a level where I should have much more.
#6
kuonji
Sep 28, 2008 9:22:26 There's no hard rules for spell research in 3.5. I would suggest that you sit down with your DM outside of the game sometime and try to work with him to come up with some kind of standard way to research spells. I don't know how feasible since I think spell research is something that you typically won't have time for during an adventure.

You might be better off providing a list of desired spells to your DM and asking to come across some of them in game in scrolls or enemy spellbooks or something.
#7
fanaelialae
Sep 29, 2008 9:35:47 The only mention of Independent Research is on page 179 of the 3.5 PHB. It refers you to Chapter 2 of the DMG (pg 35) which is just guidelines on creating new spells, so no help there.

However, on pg 179 of the PHB there are also rules for copying spells from other wizards. It states that the typical fee is the spell's level x 50 gp, but that wizards friendly to one-another will often trade at no cost.

Since your character is a Wizard of High Sorcery (I assume that means a member of the Tower of High Sorcery- I haven't followed Dragonlance since the Chaos War) perhaps he could find a friendly wizard who already has the spell to trade with, or a member of the Tower who will allow him to purchase the spell at the standard price.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 keytap Sep 27, 2008 18:52:52	I'm playing in a 3.5e Dragonlance campaign, and the DM doesn't allow spells outside of the PHBI, PHBII, and Dragonlance books. The only other book allowed is the Spell Compendium, and even then, you must personally research the spells out of the book with checks/money/whatnot. Divine spellcasters just make a Concentration check to see if they can prepare a spell that would normally not be allowed. From what I can tell, the DC is something like 15 + spell level - (0.5 * caster level), though it changes all the time. And at our level, a DC 15-20 Concentration check is easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy. Arcane spellcasters, according to him, must spend money on researching the spells. "Okay," I says, "what'll it cost me to learn Voice of the Dragon?" He then formulates, on the spot, an absurd set of rules to determine the price. He rolls a d%, multiplies it by the spell level, and then rolls some dice (not sure which, they're behind the screen) to determine how many days of research it takes. So Voice of the Dragon, in the end, would cost me about 600 stl (steel is substituted for gold in Dragonlance for those who don't know), when I only have about 1600 stl. Note that I have yet to buy anything this campaign that cost more than 10 stl, so I've been saving for quite a while. I'm 8th level. So it'd cost me 600 stl to learn the spell, and another 400 stl to put it into my spellbook. 1000 stl for a single 4th level spell? Methinks not. So I try a different spell, a 3rd level spell. This one would cost me 60 stl, according to his dice rolls. From 1000 stl to 60 stl? What kind of sensible rules allow for that much deviation? Is this normal? I declined every offer, and decided I would never attempt to learn a spell from the Spell Compendium, since he tells me the cost per day, and not even how many days it would take. I could continuously funnel my money into a level 2 spell that is costing me 200 stl a day for who knows how long, and never have a clue as to how much more it would take. Are there rules for researching spells? It's just ridiculous. Also, is it just me, or should an 8th level character have more than 1600 gp?
#2 arashidrgn Sep 27, 2008 23:04:14	It seems to me that he's using made up on the spot rules. Their are rules for researching extra spells in the PHB I believe, but the cost of researching a new spell is typically in the thousands of gold. I don't now if gold values in dragon lance are different from the standard, but 1600 (monetary units) sounds exceptionally low for 8th level, especially considering you haven't been spending much. Tell him it's not exactly balanced for divine classes to get their extra spells without spending a dime, and with a skill check that is typically very easy. I have a similar DM who hands out magical weapons and armor for the melee combatants like it's candy, but puts useless and restrictive handicaps on the casters.
#3 keytap Sep 27, 2008 23:29:21	I can understand researching new spells being very expensive, but like you said, I feel like I should be allowed to get at least a few cool new tricks without bankrupting myself when the cleric on the other end of the table is popping holy storms left and right as long as he can make DC 17 Concentration checks once a day.
#4 kalanth Sep 27, 2008 23:48:18	Sounds like this DM is not fully understanding Dragonlance, much less the resurch options. Depending on the age, the Wizards are a bit more dominating than the clerics. Even in the most recent age the wizard has more power, as they were the first to understand and learn to control their powers with the change in the world. Things are kinda back to normal now as well, so what occured with the world being stolen and all should not be an issue. Money wise the Stl is worth more than GP, but the standard DM just shifts the exchange table over one to make it line up better. At 8th level you should be worth 27,000 gp (DMG, Pg 135) and not 1600... If the DM argues that Dragonlance is a lower wealth world (I used to DM it, and I was in that belief) then he should be brought to understand that you are the heroes and the focus of the game. You should be different and powerful. Your skills make you stand above the common man. What he is doing is making the heroes average in a world that is anything but average.
#5 keytap Sep 28, 2008 0:02:33	I did forget to mention that I have a totally badass staff. But it counts as my Item of Power I got from the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class, so I'm not sure if it can be used to validate my lack of funds at a level where I should have much more.
#6 kuonji Sep 28, 2008 9:22:26	There's no hard rules for spell research in 3.5. I would suggest that you sit down with your DM outside of the game sometime and try to work with him to come up with some kind of standard way to research spells. I don't know how feasible since I think spell research is something that you typically won't have time for during an adventure. You might be better off providing a list of desired spells to your DM and asking to come across some of them in game in scrolls or enemy spellbooks or something.
#7 fanaelialae Sep 29, 2008 9:35:47	The only mention of Independent Research is on page 179 of the 3.5 PHB. It refers you to Chapter 2 of the DMG (pg 35) which is just guidelines on creating new spells, so no help there. However, on pg 179 of the PHB there are also rules for copying spells from other wizards. It states that the typical fee is the spell's level x 50 gp, but that wizards friendly to one-another will often trade at no cost. Since your character is a Wizard of High Sorcery (I assume that means a member of the Tower of High Sorcery- I haven't followed Dragonlance since the Chaos War) perhaps he could find a friendly wizard who already has the spell to trade with, or a member of the Tower who will allow him to purchase the spell at the standard price.