Overpowered DMPC + PK - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Overpowered DMPC + PK

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
volcanon2
Nov 01, 2008 2:17:11 So a couple of sessions back the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs. I come in to my session last week and find that apparently during the zero game time between the end of the last session and beginning of this one the DMPC, killed off my character without me even being able to roll anything.

Isn't this, uh, kinda stupid? I left that game and I'm not going back.
#2
confirm_trash
Nov 01, 2008 2:24:10 Your question answers itself.
#3
amrehlu
Nov 01, 2008 3:52:50 Well... that sucks... there really isn't much of a question, other then of our opinions of what happened... As a DM, who frequently uses DMPCs (although I usually use them for short amounts of time as plot devices... killing them off, and the PCs seeking revenge, ect... more like temporary NPCs but whatever), it just shows he is a piece of crap as a DM... but, he was DM, so whatever he wants, is the "right" thing...

It sucks man... did the DM have it out for you, for some reason, outside of game? Or was this completely random?
#4
m4kitsu
Nov 01, 2008 6:48:30
PK

There's a term I haven't heard in a while. It brings back unplesant memories of getting /tells of "you go now . PK PK !" in certain online games.

That aside, I have a problem with the entire concept of a "DMPC." I've thought the term was a bad idea from the first I learned of it, and time has done nothing to change my opinion.

I realize I'm stereotyping by saying this, but I note that stereotypes exist for a reason: Your DM is power-tripping. He wants to "win" D&D, so he's abusing his power over the game to stroke his own ego.

If I had to guess; your DM is fairly new to the game, and to roleplaying in general. He probably has a poor understanding of the rules (or at least an understanding notably inferior to someone else at the table), and gets very defensive about it, becoming agitated or angry when someone corrects him or calls shenanigans on one of his rulings. He has trouble balancing encounters and building effective challenges -the players either walk right through what he expected to be an interesting fight, or will become annoyed with being confronted by one impossible challenge after another. He may not improvise well, and have trouble coping with the players when they don't follow what he perceives to be the "correct" path for them.

His storytelling skills may be excellent, but his ability to let the players in on having a controlling hand in that story may be shaky. He may have trouble holding the interest of the group for extended periods of time, either because he manages the table poorly, or because he hyper-focuses on one PC, leaving the rest of them bored.

If this sounds like your DM, listen up:

He needs your help.

Don't trash him, don't abandon him; don't simply slam him in his shortcomings and leave him to bleed out.

He's never going to learn better if the people who can help him up and leave. Discuss his mistakes with him, get his feedback on what he was thinking at the time, and give him the same. Approach it from the standpoint of you wanting to help him so that everyone can enjoy the game more. Tell him about your experiences from the other side of the screen, and get his story too.

Give him ideas and advice. Don't demand, don't order -suggest. "Hey, next time, try it this way, it may go smoother."

Offer your experience to him. Even if you're not any better or more experienced of a player, often simply having a different perspective on a situation can be useful. Let him know that he can use you as a rules resource, or even just a go-to man to look up a rule for him so that he can get on with play and address it later.

If you have a Han Solo moment at the table ("I've gotta bad feeling about this..."), voice that to him.

I've been gaming for 7 years, GMing for almost all of that, and I'm the least experienced player at my table. The most senior of us remembers 1978 when the world of gaming changed forever. Even so, we still all sit down at the end of each session and have a discussion on our thoughts and opinions of it, what we thought went right and wrong, and how things could be improved next time. Our group is stronger for it, and it doesn't take but 10 minutes more at the end of the evening.

Instead of getting mad and hoping for some sympathy on these forums, go deal with the problem like a rational adult.

You'd be surprised how well it works, and your whole group will become better gamers for it.
#5
RyndarLocke
Nov 01, 2008 11:17:38 I had a DM tell me once that my Paladin was killed in his sleep.

I left, and never went back.
#6
salla
Nov 01, 2008 23:02:07
So a couple of sessions back the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs. I come in to my session last week and find that apparently during the zero game time between the end of the last session and beginning of this one the DMPC, killed off my character without me even being able to roll anything.

Isn't this, uh, kinda stupid? I left that game and I'm not going back.

The only thing I see wrong with your decision was that you didn't level a variety of insults at the DM and his family on your way out.

There is no excuse for that level of douchebaggery.
#7
m4kitsu
Nov 02, 2008 1:23:18
There is no excuse for that level of douchebaggery.

Inexperience.
#8
volcanon2
Nov 02, 2008 1:26:44 Well I dont think he's inexperienced.

The thing was, I lost a "critical fort save", which meant probably poison, and my character had 12 poison resistance.

Ah well, I already found another game.
#9
baneofelves
Nov 02, 2008 10:11:06 take knife. stab DM repeatedly. tell the cops he had it coming. :D

On a more serious note, you did the right thing.
#10
mynameforevermore
Nov 02, 2008 16:25:01
The only thing I see wrong with your decision was that you didn't level a variety of insults at the DM and his family on your way out.

It seems like this would be a silly, if not completely foolhardy and reckless, thing to do. Basically, don't listen to this kid.

M4kitsu, on the other hand, has great points. Here's what you have to remember about DMs; if you tell them that they're acting stupid, they will probably correct themselves.

For instance, in the last session I ran, a PC got angry at an NPC for a fairly valid reason, (I say fairly because the player was playing his character as a bit stupid and off-putting) and then attempted to kill him. As this particular NPC had been nothing but their ally, and happened to be very important to my plot, I flipped at him. It was unnecessary and shouldn't have happened, as he and I discussed afterwards. He has been playing for longer than I, and has been my D&D mentor, plus my best friend, which means that we're able to discuss what happens at the table and he can give me pointers without stealing my thunder. Basically the lesson I learned was this; it doesn't matter how important the DM's plot is if the PC's can't change it. I should be able to have a completely different experience playing one character in a certain campaign as opposed to another. If the DM is so attached to the idea of you dying that he can't accept it to change, then he's doing it RONG!

Chances are, if you play with someone, they're likely your friend, and if not, then your decision was correct. Playing with a DM that has a personal vendetta against you and who does things like this usually results in one of the terrible situations that characterized D&D as a "devil game" in the 80's.

D&D is a game; much like football or Monopoly, and in any of these games disputes are better handled with calm emotions and helpful suggestions than drastic measures. If you wish to continue playing the character your DM insists died, then tell him he's being unfair. You had no opportunity to save yourself, and died when you weren't even there. When a player doesn't show up and a session begins in a battle, we play as the character, but disallow death of the character until the player arrives and can play his own creation.

A DM killing a character when the player isn't there is like beating an encounter, gaining experience, and getting super-weapons when the DM isn't there. It doesn't work and it defeats the purpose of the game entirely; so yes, your DM is in the wrong, but tell him this, or even link him to the thread, rather than just leaving without an explanation.

IF the DM has a personal vendetta against you, urge the other players to get out of the game. DMs like this tend to be rotten to play with and love themselves more than having fun. If he killed you to get you to quit, it's immature, and he ought to have just sat you down and told you that he didn't want to play with you anymore.
#11
salla
Nov 02, 2008 18:56:40
Well I dont think he's inexperienced.

The thing was, I lost a "critical fort save", which meant probably poison, and my character had 12 poison resistance.

Ah well, I already found another game.

There's no such thing as a 'fort save'.
#12
m4kitsu
Nov 02, 2008 22:39:23
There's no such thing as a 'fort save'.

...in 4e.

I can keep this up. Are you done yet?

Come on, Salla, you're smarter than this.
#13
legdiwena
Nov 02, 2008 23:02:53 Wouldn't 12 poison resist be 4e?
#14
pigknight
Nov 02, 2008 23:31:19 The DM is pulling crap outa his ass...
#15
dirk_radhammer_dup
Nov 04, 2008 1:55:44
The DM is pulling crap outa his ass...

A very unfortunate choice of words.
#16
m4kitsu
Nov 04, 2008 23:49:06 Unfortunate, but perhaps not entirely inappropriate.

Well, Volcanon, any further updates, info, or thoughts about our responses?
#17
Shiftkitty
Nov 05, 2008 7:41:07 I don't think DMPCs are necessarily a bad thing. I regard them as somewhat more than an NPC, but it's kind of hard to explain at 5:30 in the morning BC (Before Coffee)*. The problem a lot of DMs have when they make a DMPC is this:
the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs.

You know, if your DM wants to be the star of his own game, send him to my Soliatire Rules (link found in my sig). None of my DMPCs have been a source of Deus ex Machina for me, and my ego doesn't need stroking.

As for killing off a PC during the lull between sessions? Pure, unadulterated toro guano. Even back in 1e it was considered poor form to kill of a PC for any reason without allowing a saving throw. If you had gotten poisoned, the poison was considered completely inert until the game started back up again. Maybe he doesn't realize that DM doesn't stand for "Dumb Muthah******".

*Okay, the morning fog is lifting a little. I think I see the difference between NPC and DMPC is why they're there. NPCs provide a little extra support for an otherwise full party. DMPC's should only be used to fill out a party whose players don't want to manage mulitple PCs AND if you don't have the time/inclination to scale down a dungeon. When a DMPC's opinion is asked in any situation, they should offer two or more options to the party and let them decide.

Gah! I need coffee!
#18
pigknight
Nov 05, 2008 18:06:18 Hey when I pull the whole "rocks fall, everyone dies - er - takes 20d6 damage" crap I use it as a plot device. :D
#19
ramses_iii
Nov 07, 2008 3:53:33
So a couple of sessions back the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs. I come in to my session last week and find that apparently during the zero game time between the end of the last session and beginning of this one the DMPC, killed off my character without me even being able to roll anything.

Isn't this, uh, kinda stupid? I left that game and I'm not going back.

Yes, and good call. I don't recommend trying to save this DM's gaming experience; IMX power tripping DMs have tended to be incorrigible in that regard. I suggest you find a new group with more mature gamers and don't look back.
#20
volcanon2
Nov 08, 2008 5:29:41 No updates. I just haven't gone back to that group since then. 90% chance I have myself a new group tho. It's 4.0 instead of 3.5 but then again I dont really mind the changes except some weird wording in the player's handbook.
#21
pigknight
Nov 08, 2008 8:25:57 Hope you like your new group intarwebz buddy.
#22
ramses_iii
Nov 08, 2008 15:27:37 That's cool; I like the 4E ruleset a lot more... I hope you find it to your liking.
#23
Ryoku
Nov 11, 2008 0:34:23 It's stuff like that that makes me not want to use DMPCs. My problem is that my DMPC, no matter how well I play him, will think exactly like me and thus see through my plots. Granted I haven't tried one in ages so I may just be paranoid but that's how I see it going down.

Also I think they take away from the real PCs. I love those moments when I get to shut up and just let the players role play. They happen far too infrequently, unfortunately, and a DMPC even partaking in that I think would remind the players that there's a DM and if they talk to him the game moves forward.
#24
graddlin
Nov 11, 2008 18:57:20 Ahhh. The old DMPC problem rears its ugly head once again! No matter the edition, this little slice of fun is always going to be present.

Oh, and by the way, you did the right thing, OP. Simply walking away without a word of anger proves you are the bigger man in the situation.
Personally, I think your DM is rather...inexperienced. It seems to me that he had a problem with you and/or your character and decided to do away with you in a fashion that skirted a confrontation. Not exactly the best way to keep hard feelings from amassing.

Take care, friend.
#25
pigknight
Nov 11, 2008 20:39:45 I use DMPCs 90% of the time. But I can roleplay really well:

EXAMPLE 1
Me: "The room looks safe."
PC 1: I'll walk in.
Me: Roll a Reflex save.
PC 1: Why? You said it was safe?
Me: I rolled a 2...

EXAPMLE 2
Me: I charge in and attack the ogre.
PC 1 (tank): Me too. I mark it.
Me: It attacks you *rolls* and hits for *rolls* 124 damage.
PC 1: BUT YOU CHARGED IN!!! AND YOU KNEW IT WAS DANGEROUS!!!
Me: My guy is a zealoty paladin.
PC 1: I hate you sometimes...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 volcanon2 Nov 01, 2008 2:17:11	So a couple of sessions back the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs. I come in to my session last week and find that apparently during the zero game time between the end of the last session and beginning of this one the DMPC, killed off my character without me even being able to roll anything. Isn't this, uh, kinda stupid? I left that game and I'm not going back.
#2 confirm_trash Nov 01, 2008 2:24:10	Your question answers itself.
#3 amrehlu Nov 01, 2008 3:52:50	Well... that sucks... there really isn't much of a question, other then of our opinions of what happened... As a DM, who frequently uses DMPCs (although I usually use them for short amounts of time as plot devices... killing them off, and the PCs seeking revenge, ect... more like temporary NPCs but whatever), it just shows he is a piece of crap as a DM... but, he was DM, so whatever he wants, is the "right" thing... It sucks man... did the DM have it out for you, for some reason, outside of game? Or was this completely random?
#4 m4kitsu Nov 01, 2008 6:48:30	PK There's a term I haven't heard in a while. It brings back unplesant memories of getting /tells of "you go now . PK PK !" in certain online games. That aside, I have a problem with the entire concept of a "DMPC." I've thought the term was a bad idea from the first I learned of it, and time has done nothing to change my opinion. I realize I'm stereotyping by saying this, but I note that stereotypes exist for a reason: Your DM is power-tripping. He wants to "win" D&D, so he's abusing his power over the game to stroke his own ego. If I had to guess; your DM is fairly new to the game, and to roleplaying in general. He probably has a poor understanding of the rules (or at least an understanding notably inferior to someone else at the table), and gets very defensive about it, becoming agitated or angry when someone corrects him or calls shenanigans on one of his rulings. He has trouble balancing encounters and building effective challenges -the players either walk right through what he expected to be an interesting fight, or will become annoyed with being confronted by one impossible challenge after another. He may not improvise well, and have trouble coping with the players when they don't follow what he perceives to be the "correct" path for them. His storytelling skills may be excellent, but his ability to let the players in on having a controlling hand in that story may be shaky. He may have trouble holding the interest of the group for extended periods of time, either because he manages the table poorly, or because he hyper-focuses on one PC, leaving the rest of them bored. If this sounds like your DM, listen up: He needs your help. Don't trash him, don't abandon him; don't simply slam him in his shortcomings and leave him to bleed out. He's never going to learn better if the people who can help him up and leave. Discuss his mistakes with him, get his feedback on what he was thinking at the time, and give him the same. Approach it from the standpoint of you wanting to help him so that everyone can enjoy the game more. Tell him about your experiences from the other side of the screen, and get his story too. Give him ideas and advice. Don't demand, don't order -suggest. "Hey, next time, try it this way, it may go smoother." Offer your experience to him. Even if you're not any better or more experienced of a player, often simply having a different perspective on a situation can be useful. Let him know that he can use you as a rules resource, or even just a go-to man to look up a rule for him so that he can get on with play and address it later. If you have a Han Solo moment at the table ("I've gotta bad feeling about this..."), voice that to him. I've been gaming for 7 years, GMing for almost all of that, and I'm the least experienced player at my table. The most senior of us remembers 1978 when the world of gaming changed forever. Even so, we still all sit down at the end of each session and have a discussion on our thoughts and opinions of it, what we thought went right and wrong, and how things could be improved next time. Our group is stronger for it, and it doesn't take but 10 minutes more at the end of the evening. Instead of getting mad and hoping for some sympathy on these forums, go deal with the problem like a rational adult. You'd be surprised how well it works, and your whole group will become better gamers for it.
#5 RyndarLocke Nov 01, 2008 11:17:38	I had a DM tell me once that my Paladin was killed in his sleep. I left, and never went back.
#6 salla Nov 01, 2008 23:02:07	So a couple of sessions back the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs. I come in to my session last week and find that apparently during the zero game time between the end of the last session and beginning of this one the DMPC, killed off my character without me even being able to roll anything. Isn't this, uh, kinda stupid? I left that game and I'm not going back. The only thing I see wrong with your decision was that you didn't level a variety of insults at the DM and his family on your way out. There is no excuse for that level of douchebaggery.
#7 m4kitsu Nov 02, 2008 1:23:18	There is no excuse for that level of douchebaggery. Inexperience.
#8 volcanon2 Nov 02, 2008 1:26:44	Well I dont think he's inexperienced. The thing was, I lost a "critical fort save", which meant probably poison, and my character had 12 poison resistance. Ah well, I already found another game.
#9 baneofelves Nov 02, 2008 10:11:06	take knife. stab DM repeatedly. tell the cops he had it coming. :D On a more serious note, you did the right thing.
#10 mynameforevermore Nov 02, 2008 16:25:01	The only thing I see wrong with your decision was that you didn't level a variety of insults at the DM and his family on your way out. It seems like this would be a silly, if not completely foolhardy and reckless, thing to do. Basically, don't listen to this kid. M4kitsu, on the other hand, has great points. Here's what you have to remember about DMs; if you tell them that they're acting stupid, they will probably correct themselves. For instance, in the last session I ran, a PC got angry at an NPC for a fairly valid reason, (I say fairly because the player was playing his character as a bit stupid and off-putting) and then attempted to kill him. As this particular NPC had been nothing but their ally, and happened to be very important to my plot, I flipped at him. It was unnecessary and shouldn't have happened, as he and I discussed afterwards. He has been playing for longer than I, and has been my D&D mentor, plus my best friend, which means that we're able to discuss what happens at the table and he can give me pointers without stealing my thunder. Basically the lesson I learned was this; it doesn't matter how important the DM's plot is if the PC's can't change it. I should be able to have a completely different experience playing one character in a certain campaign as opposed to another. If the DM is so attached to the idea of you dying that he can't accept it to change, then he's doing it RONG! Chances are, if you play with someone, they're likely your friend, and if not, then your decision was correct. Playing with a DM that has a personal vendetta against you and who does things like this usually results in one of the terrible situations that characterized D&D as a "devil game" in the 80's. D&D is a game; much like football or Monopoly, and in any of these games disputes are better handled with calm emotions and helpful suggestions than drastic measures. If you wish to continue playing the character your DM insists died, then tell him he's being unfair. You had no opportunity to save yourself, and died when you weren't even there. When a player doesn't show up and a session begins in a battle, we play as the character, but disallow death of the character until the player arrives and can play his own creation. A DM killing a character when the player isn't there is like beating an encounter, gaining experience, and getting super-weapons when the DM isn't there. It doesn't work and it defeats the purpose of the game entirely; so yes, your DM is in the wrong, but tell him this, or even link him to the thread, rather than just leaving without an explanation. IF the DM has a personal vendetta against you, urge the other players to get out of the game. DMs like this tend to be rotten to play with and love themselves more than having fun. If he killed you to get you to quit, it's immature, and he ought to have just sat you down and told you that he didn't want to play with you anymore.
#11 salla Nov 02, 2008 18:56:40	Well I dont think he's inexperienced. The thing was, I lost a "critical fort save", which meant probably poison, and my character had 12 poison resistance. Ah well, I already found another game. There's no such thing as a 'fort save'.
#12 m4kitsu Nov 02, 2008 22:39:23	There's no such thing as a 'fort save'. ...in 4e. I can keep this up. Are you done yet? Come on, Salla, you're smarter than this.
#13 legdiwena Nov 02, 2008 23:02:53	Wouldn't 12 poison resist be 4e?
#14 pigknight Nov 02, 2008 23:31:19	The DM is pulling crap outa his ass...
#15 dirk_radhammer_dup Nov 04, 2008 1:55:44	The DM is pulling crap outa his ass... A very unfortunate choice of words.
#16 m4kitsu Nov 04, 2008 23:49:06	Unfortunate, but perhaps not entirely inappropriate. Well, Volcanon, any further updates, info, or thoughts about our responses?
#17 Shiftkitty Nov 05, 2008 7:41:07	I don't think DMPCs are necessarily a bad thing. I regard them as somewhat more than an NPC, but it's kind of hard to explain at 5:30 in the morning BC (Before Coffee). The problem a lot of DMs have when they make a DMPC is this: the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs. You know, if your DM wants to be the star of his own game, send him to my Soliatire Rules (link found in my sig). None of my DMPCs have been a source of Deus ex Machina for me, and my ego doesn't need stroking. As for killing off a PC during the lull between sessions? Pure, unadulterated toro guano. Even back in 1e it was considered poor form to kill of a PC for any reason without allowing a saving throw. If you had gotten poisoned, the poison was considered completely inert until the game started back up again. Maybe he doesn't realize that DM doesn't stand for "Dumb Muthah****". Okay, the morning fog is lifting a little. I think I see the difference between NPC and DMPC is why they're there. NPCs provide a little extra support for an otherwise full party. DMPC's should only be used to fill out a party whose players don't want to manage mulitple PCs AND if you don't have the time/inclination to scale down a dungeon. When a DMPC's opinion is asked in any situation, they should offer two or more options to the party and let them decide. Gah! I need coffee!
#18 pigknight Nov 05, 2008 18:06:18	Hey when I pull the whole "rocks fall, everyone dies - er - takes 20d6 damage" crap I use it as a plot device. :D
#19 ramses_iii Nov 07, 2008 3:53:33	So a couple of sessions back the DM basically wrote himself into the campaign with a character way higher than any of the other PCs. I come in to my session last week and find that apparently during the zero game time between the end of the last session and beginning of this one the DMPC, killed off my character without me even being able to roll anything. Isn't this, uh, kinda stupid? I left that game and I'm not going back. Yes, and good call. I don't recommend trying to save this DM's gaming experience; IMX power tripping DMs have tended to be incorrigible in that regard. I suggest you find a new group with more mature gamers and don't look back.
#20 volcanon2 Nov 08, 2008 5:29:41	No updates. I just haven't gone back to that group since then. 90% chance I have myself a new group tho. It's 4.0 instead of 3.5 but then again I dont really mind the changes except some weird wording in the player's handbook.
#21 pigknight Nov 08, 2008 8:25:57	Hope you like your new group intarwebz buddy.
#22 ramses_iii Nov 08, 2008 15:27:37	That's cool; I like the 4E ruleset a lot more... I hope you find it to your liking.
#23 Ryoku Nov 11, 2008 0:34:23	It's stuff like that that makes me not want to use DMPCs. My problem is that my DMPC, no matter how well I play him, will think exactly like me and thus see through my plots. Granted I haven't tried one in ages so I may just be paranoid but that's how I see it going down. Also I think they take away from the real PCs. I love those moments when I get to shut up and just let the players role play. They happen far too infrequently, unfortunately, and a DMPC even partaking in that I think would remind the players that there's a DM and if they talk to him the game moves forward.
#24 graddlin Nov 11, 2008 18:57:20	Ahhh. The old DMPC problem rears its ugly head once again! No matter the edition, this little slice of fun is always going to be present. Oh, and by the way, you did the right thing, OP. Simply walking away without a word of anger proves you are the bigger man in the situation. Personally, I think your DM is rather...inexperienced. It seems to me that he had a problem with you and/or your character and decided to do away with you in a fashion that skirted a confrontation. Not exactly the best way to keep hard feelings from amassing. Take care, friend.
#25 pigknight Nov 11, 2008 20:39:45	I use DMPCs 90% of the time. But I can roleplay really well: EXAMPLE 1 Me: "The room looks safe." PC 1: I'll walk in. Me: Roll a Reflex save. PC 1: Why? You said it was safe? Me: I rolled a 2... EXAPMLE 2 Me: I charge in and attack the ogre. PC 1 (tank): Me too. I mark it. Me: It attacks you rolls and hits for rolls 124 damage. PC 1: BUT YOU CHARGED IN!!! AND YOU KNEW IT WAS DANGEROUS!!! Me: My guy is a zealoty paladin. PC 1: I hate you sometimes...