These are the stats I rolled (DM allowed 5d6, best of 3, re-roll 1's).
Well, I rolled so darned well, that my brain is paralyzed. I can't think of a concept...
Stats are:
18, 17, 17, 15, 14, 10
Character level: 15
Books allowed: pretty much anything goes
Races allowed: pretty much anything goes
LA Buy-off: in effect
World concept:
There are 3 main nations/countries in the world:
-) Nation 1 is a safe, prosperous nation (leans toward Law and Good)
-) Nation 2 is a wild, desolate, shattered land. Not a lot lives here. Quite literally it has been reduced to a "battle field".
-) Nation 3 is where the intelligent un-dead live and rule (portions are ruled by a Vampire Lord and a Lich Lord). Nation 2 was obliterated by Nation 3.
The action, so to speak, for this campaign is going to take place in Nation #2.
If you play a fighter, it is encouraged to use the Tome of Battle.
Some ideas running around in my head that could use expanding upon.
1) descendant of the royalty of Nation #2, swears to re-establish the empire and drive the beasts and un-dead from his lands
2) Vampire Hunter D-type character (or a Van Helsing type guy)
3) a powerful warchief/warlord that wants to establish his own empire (sort of like #1 above)
4) remorseful intelligent un-dead, bent on overthrowing the vampire lord of Nation #3
That's all I got, right now....
Usually, I'm a fountain of ideas, but the stats are just so....overwhelming!
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/(Eldritch Knight/Knight Phantom) 7
Psion 6/Anarchic Initiate 4/Illithid Slayer 10
Warblade 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5
Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4
All of those will give you a base attack bonus of at least +16, and all but the Swiftblade get level 9 spells or powers (and the Swiftblade's capstone ability is about as good as a level 9 spell). The general idea is to cast spells on yourself that increase your combat effectiveness (Polymorph, Wraithstrike, Bull's Strength-- whatever) and then wade into combat. For more detailed advice on a build, Search the CharOp board for "gish".
And any of those concepts would work with most of those builds.
You missed where I only have 15 levels to work with :D
The idea is to take the first 15 now and the last 5 when you can. Gish builds tend to be complete like that. :P
You missed where I only have 15 levels to work with :D
Yes, but he's trying to give you a full build. To build a gish effectively, you're going to want to have 4 attacks by level 20, particularly since your characters are likely to actually make it to level 20. So, he's trying to make sure your BA is +16/+11/+6/+1
Help, please!Stats are:
18, 17, 17, 15, 14, 10
If you play a fighter, it is encouraged to use the Tome of Battle.
Some ideas running around in my head that could use expanding upon.
2) Vampire Hunter D-type character (or a Van Helsing type guy)
1/2 Vampire (libris Mortis) Monk 2, Sorcerer 2, Paladin 2, Fist of the Forest 1 (Complete Champion), Abjurant Champion 5 (Complete Mage), (I think you get another level or 2 after LA buyoff)
Take Ascetic Mage feat (Complete Adventurer)
In other words, you are a regenerating character with a charm person at will gaze based on your Cha. Great saves w/ evasion. Charisma + Con + Dex added to your AC, + mage armor, and every combat you cast shield as swift action for another +9 ac.
Stats, 18 Cha (+2 from template, +2 from levels=22), 17 Str (+2 from Template=19), 17 Con (+1 from levels=18), 16 Dex (+2 from template=18),
AC =10+6(Cha) +4 (Dex) +4(Con) +2 Natural +4(mage Armor) +9 Shield spell cast as swift action with abjurant champion.=39 before magic items
I concede that the real gish build beats it in a fight, but the OP didn't actually say he wanted a gish build, and I think my build would perform at least as well as some of the gish builds listed in an undead heavy dungeoncrawl against a hostile DM. Also, I think its fun, and he didn't go to the CharOp boards.
I called it narrow because it has everything focusing on 'high AC' but not a whole lot else. Which means everything that doesn't involve an attack roll against you such as a saving throw, or you attacking... yeah.
Are you kidding Sunic? Its saves are GREAT! Monk saves + paladin save bonus with maximized charisma and evasion. It is almost certain to have the best saves in the party. And it isn't just great AC, its great Touch and Incorporeal touch AC, nice for fighting liches and their spectral minions.
Attacking? At will Charm gaze DC 23 (higher after boosting CHA) any humanoid or monsterous humanoid. If it isn't one of those, it has BAB 2 below level, smite evil, feral trance, a free slam attack, the ability to burn spells as a swift action for extra to hit and damage. It can use Sorc/Wiz items, healing items, and it still has 3 feats left (after Acetic mage, Power Attack, Great Fortitude and Combat Casting required for prestige classes). And I think with level buyoff it gets 2 or 3 levels of Eldrich Knight before it hits ECL 15 (as posted it was 12 class levels + 2 LA).
This is either going to be a cakewalk of a game, or else your DM will have to increase the monsters' CRs, and you'll be in constant danger because your level doesn't have the powers to combat their powers. Either way, have fun!
You missed where I only have 15 levels to work with :D
In that case, I personally would probably come in with a Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 9, and pick up Swiftblade 10 for Innervated Speed (mini-Time Stop) next level. (Lots of people would tell you to use a Wizard base instead, but I prefer Sorcerers because I can do all of my planning at once instead of having to plan on a daily basis.)
If I were starting any of the other builds at level 15, I'd probably go with something like this:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/(Eldritch Knight/Knight Phantom) 2
Psion 6/Anarchic Initiate 3/Illithid Slayer 6
Warblade 1/Wizard 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 5
Are you kidding Sunic? Its saves are GREAT! Monk saves + paladin save bonus with maximized charisma and evasion. It is almost certain to have the best saves in the party. And it isn't just great AC, its great Touch and Incorporeal touch AC, nice for fighting liches and their spectral minions.
Attacking? At will Charm gaze DC 23 (higher after boosting CHA) any humanoid or monsterous humanoid. If it isn't one of those, it has BAB 2 below level, smite evil, feral trance, a free slam attack, the ability to burn spells as a swift action for extra to hit and damage. It can use Sorc/Wiz items, healing items, and it still has 3 feats left (after Acetic mage, Power Attack, Great Fortitude and Combat Casting required for prestige classes). And I think with level buyoff it gets 2 or 3 levels of Eldrich Knight before it hits ECL 15 (as posted it was 12 class levels + 2 LA).
Numbers. Oh and look up how many things are immune to mind affecting. It's not as good as it sounds even if you ignore the extreme illogicality of a half undead LG character.
By the way, charm requires a standard action. So does feral trance, which makes it worthless. Funny thing is I had someone else try to suggest this on me... it is not on the short list of templates worth it. :P
mineral warrior goliath barb4/fighter2/tempest5/Anything you want2(i would suggest more barbarian)
feats: dodge(1), mobility(3), two weapon fighting(5), improved two weapon fighting(6), spring attack(6), exotic weapon proficiency(bastard sword)(9), Monkey grip(12), weapon focus(bastard sword)(15)
stats str 17, con 17, dex 18, int 14, wis 15, cha 10.
after racial mods: str 23, con 23, dex 16, int 12, wis 13, cha 8
lvl 4 boost dex to meet prereq for improved twf
lvl 8 boost str
lvl 12 boost con
mineral warrior gives you nice dr and some natural armor
goliath gives you powerful build which means that you can dual-wield 2 huge bastardswords. BAB would be 13 right here(if you took the last two levels of something with full bab)
pure melee deathness:
mineral warrior goliath barb4/fighter2/tempest5/Anything you want2(i would suggest more barbarian)
feats: dodge(1), mobility(3), two weapon fighting(5), improved two weapon fighting(6), spring attack(6), exotic weapon proficiency(bastard sword)(9), Monkey grip(12), weapon focus(bastard sword)(15)
stats str 17, con 17, dex 18, int 14, wis 15, cha 10.
after racial mods: str 23, con 23, dex 16, int 12, wis 13, cha 8
lvl 4 boost dex to meet prereq for improved twf
lvl 8 boost str
lvl 12 boost con
mineral warrior gives you nice dr and some natural armor
goliath gives you powerful build which means that you can dual-wield 2 huge bastardswords. BAB would be 13 right here(if you took the last two levels of something with full bab)
The above post is made of epic fail. Even if Monkey Grip and Powerful Build did stack...
Monkey Grip sucks horribly.
Taking -6 to hit on every single attack sucks horribly.
Melee guys without Power Attack suck horribly.
I condemn this suggestion to deportation aboard the Fail Boat:
Yes, it really is that bad.
Numbers. Oh and look up how many things are immune to mind affecting. It's not as good as it sounds even if you ignore the extreme illogicality of a half undead LG character.
What do you mean, "numbers"?
He ASKED for something inspired by vampire hunter D. The inspiration is based on what is either a LG or NG half undead character.
By the way, charm requires a standard action. So does feral trance, which makes it worthless. Funny thing is I had someone else try to suggest this on me... it is not on the short list of templates worth it. :P
Charm at will is far from worthless Sunic. In the undead ruled realm described in the OP it is probably what is going to prevent the loss of paladin status the first time he is faced with a dozen neutral town guards ordered to apprehend him. If this example is too tough, watch the first part of Return of the Jedi, replacing "Jabba" with "Count Von Zarovitch" whenever Luke uses jedi mind trick. Compare it with an at will, silent, stilled level 7 charm person.
Text describes feral trance as like rage. Unless there is Errata, I would say it is a free, or at least swift action.
I admit, Gravetouched Ghoul is WAY better, but when CE alignment is a problem half vampire is passable.
Feral trance is a standard action because it is not stated to be any other type, therefore the default is standard. It would be a reasonable house rule to make it free like rage is specifically stated to be, however this is not RAW.
As for the charm, that should have been worded better so that 'it is worthless' applies to the feral trance. The charm is worthless due to the high degree of immune to mind affecting opponents, and the waste of an action. 12 actions in this case. There is nothing in the description that suggests it works on more than one creature at once, and several things that suggest against it such as the 'any creature targeted by this...' part.
Text describes feral trance as like rage. Unless there is Errata, I would say it is a free, or at least swift action.
To be more precise than you or Sunic...
It's a Supernatural ability, and Supernatural abilities (according to the Monster Manual) take a standard action to activate unless otherwise noted.
The only way in which Feral Trance is described as being similar to Rage is the list of actions that cannot be performed while using it.
If undead are going to be a big themed foe, stay away from rogue levels and instead take ranger levels for favoured enemy: Undead.
Stats are:
18, 17, 17, 15, 14, 10
Character level: 15
Books allowed: pretty much anything goes
Races allowed: pretty much anything goes
LA Buy-off: in effect
Thri'kreen [LA buy-off to ECL 3] 3/Warblade 11
Str 19, Dex 24, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 6
Focus on Jump, and go Tiger Claw maneuvers. With a +30 racial bonus to Jump, many of those can be easily pulled off. At higher level, due to your four arms, you can do that rending maneuver for an easy +20d6 damage. So with four +2 shortswords, you'd be able to do 12 attacks (and that maneuver) for 32d6+50 damage [Ave. 162 damage]. Make them +2 Holy Flaming Shocking Speed shortswords, they'd do 52d6+58 [Ave. 240 damage] with that maneuver.
*snip*
gah crap i keep forgetting that my house rules arent known to everyone. sorry 'bout that but i keep building with them active.
gah crap i keep forgetting that my house rules arent known to everyone. sorry 'bout that but i keep building with them active.
Oh, I thought it was just a joke.
feats: dodge(1), mobility(3), two weapon fighting(5), improved two weapon fighting(6), spring attack(6), exotic weapon proficiency(bastard sword)(9), oversized twf(12), Power attack(15)
stats str 17, con 17, dex 18, int 14, wis 15, cha 10.
after racial mods: str 23, con 23, dex 16, int 12, wis 13, cha 8
lvl 4 boost dex to meet prereq for improved twf
lvl 8 boost str
lvl 12 boost con
mineral warrior gives you nice dr and some natural armor
goliath gives you powerful build which means that you can dual-wield 2 large bastardswords. BAB would be 13 right here(if you took the last two levels of something with full bab)
thanks to tempest you dont suffer any attack penalties from twf.
Better?
Large bastard sword = 2d6 damage.
Medium greatsword = 2d6 damage.
Large greatsword = 3d6 damage.
With the greatsword and power attack, you do better damage than you would with TWF, aren't stuck dividing your wealth between two weapons, and aren't wasting several extra feats to still get a lesser result. And you aren't needing a PRC to negate the to hit penalties.
TWF, as a combat style is utter garbage without some means of adding bonus damage. Such as perhaps some Scout levels for Skirmish, and a pouncing charger. Travel Devotion and turn attempts are an acceptable substitute for Pounce.
I suggest Magmin, you do area damage just by walking around, you melt weapons, and you are stock full of immunities.
you lose 6 levels to La & Hit dice but its worth it.
Try something from savage species,
I suggest Magmin, you do area damage just by walking around, you melt weapons, and you are stock full of immunities.
you lose 6 levels to La & Hit dice but its worth it.
Doesn't that include your weapons?
And the rest of your equipment, for that matter.
OK Base AC as described is 39 before items. Incorporeal touch ac gets everything except natural armor, so it is 37. Base touch AC loses Mage armor and Shield, so 24. The other gishes listed would have the same numbers -10 (no con or Cha to AC) so 25 Incorp AC or 14 touch AC. If you assume that every mage has a Cha or Int +4 item, and a Con +2 item anyway, that adds +3 more to both of those ACs.
Comparing saves: (Assuming Con, Dex and Wis are = for all builds, giving myself +2 cha from template)
My build has Monk 2 +3+3+3, + Paladin 2 w/ cha bonus +9+6+6, +abjurant Champ +1+1+4, +Sorcerer 2 +0+0+3, +fist 1 +2+2+0, + Eldrich Knight 1 +2+0+0 + =Fort +17, Ref +12 Will +16. Assuming a Cha +4 item, that’s +19, +14, +16, with evasion.
Paladin 2 w/ Cha +4 item(+10+7+7)/Sorcerer 4(+1+1+4)/Spellsword 1 (+2+0+2)/Abjurant Champion 5 (+1+1+4)/Sacred Exorcist 3 +1+1+3= Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +20. These two are roughly equivalent, I would say my build better.
Fighter 1 (+2+0+0)/Wizard 6 (+2+2+5)/Spellsword 1 (+2+0+2)/Abjurant Champion 5 (+1+1+4)/(Eldritch Knight) 2 (+0+0+3)=Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +13. I’m way in the lead
The crummy Goliath barb6 (+5+2+2)/fighter2 (+3+0+0)/tempest5 (+4+1+1)=Fort +12, Ref +3 Will +3. Actually a little worse than that because of racial adjustments.
Rogue 15 Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +5 with evasion. Congrats, you are better than the barbarian.
Crimson’s other builds use classes from books I don’t own, so if he wants to do the math as to where they stack up on saves at level 15, he can.
Feral trance is a standard action because it is not stated to be any other type, therefore the default is standard. It would be a reasonable house rule to make it free like rage is specifically stated to be, however this is not RAW.
OK. I yield RAW makes it a standard. I would argue spirit of rules would make it a free, but for these purposes, call it a standard. It is still better than worthless, falling into the category of "right before I kick open a door" buff.
As for the charm, that should have been worded better so that 'it is worthless' applies to the feral trance. The charm is worthless due to the high degree of immune to mind affecting opponents, and the waste of an action. 12 actions in this case. There is nothing in the description that suggests it works on more than one creature at once, and several things that suggest against it such as the 'any creature targeted by this...' part.
I never said it did. In the case of the multiple guards you look in their eyes before combat starts. Or you trust in the knowledge that most guards can only hit you on a nat 20, and you regenerate, so you could calmly charm one guard per round if you felt like it, as a peaceful alternative to leaving their unconscious bodies tied up as potential monster chow. There really are so many applications to this power that I am wondering if you are pulling my leg when you call it worthless.
Wizard 6(2/2/5)/Swiftblade 9(3/8/6) yields Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +11, plus a +2 Dodge bonus to AC, plus Freedom of Movement and a 50% miss chance on attacks and spells when he casts Haste on himself (which he can do as a free-- not swift-- action, and the effects of which are treated as an Extraordiinary ability for him), in addition to the normal (and other not-quite-so-normal) effects of Haste.
Psion 6(2/2/5)/Anarchic Initiate 3(1/1/3)/Illithid Slayer 6(2/2/5) yields Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +13 (+17 vs. mind-affecting); note that a 15PP Inertial Armor (possible with Wild Surge +1) provides a +11 Armor bonus to AC, and is a Force effect (and lasts for 15 hours). A 13PP Force Screen can add a +7 Shield bonus for 14 minutes (15 minutes with a Wild Surge). He's also immune to magical effects that reveal his location (except Metafaculty). And he's only one manifester level short of a pure Psion.
Warblade 1(2/0/0)/Wizard 6(2/2/5)/Jade Phoenix Mage 5(4/1/1)/Abjurant Champion 5(1/1/4) yields Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +10, and grants access to maneuvers that will let you use a Concentration check instead of a particular type of save as an immediate action.
Psion 6(2/2/5)/Anarchic Initiate 3(1/1/3)/Illithid Slayer 6(2/2/5) yields Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +13 (+17 vs. mind-affecting); note that a 15PP Inertial Armor (possible with Wild Surge +1) provides a +11 Armor bonus to AC, and is a Force effect (and lasts for 15 hours). A 13PP Force Screen can add a +7 Shield bonus for 14 minutes (15 minutes with a Wild Surge).
So thats a 32 AC, 32 incorporeal Touch ac, 14 touch ac (with 18 dex). I had 39 AC, 37 Incorporeal touch, 24 Touch. We are each using 2 effects, but his are using PP of high level spell slots and mine are first level spells. When we each take items we will take anyway (a +4 on our casting stat, +2 on con) my AC goes to 42/40/27. His saves are much worse.
Warblade 1(2/0/0)/Wizard 6(2/2/5)/Jade Phoenix Mage 5(4/1/1)/Abjurant Champion 5(1/1/4) yields Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +10, and grants access to maneuvers that will let you use a Concentration check instead of a particular type of save as an immediate action.
Thats a cool power! I need ToB. Still, that is one save per round that is about +22, using your immediate action and a maneuver.
Don't get me wrong Crimson. Those are probably awesome builds. I suspect any of them would beat mine in a fight. But I would rather have my build in a dungeon crawl, especially as one member of a party.
Don't get me wrong Crimson. Those are probably awesome builds. I suspect any of them would beat mine in a fight. But I would rather have my build in a dungeon crawl, especially as one member of a party.
I wasn't criticizing your build or holding mine up as being better. I was just presenting information as it exists and allowing others to make their own judgements.
I wasn't criticizing your build or holding mine up as being better. I was just presenting information as it exists and allowing others to make their own judgements.
I know. Sunic seemed to be though.
Pick your class/build first, then assign your stats accordingly. Great stats are no reason to make a lousy build. OTOH if you want to play a martial class then a paladin now becomes more reasonable than the other options. But it should be no reason to not play a caster, for example, unless you're sure you can get another party member or members to fill that role.
As for the gish stats, those are decent. I'm spoiled a bit though, mostly because I made one with a touch ac of 39 (normal AC 51, lowest save +24) without getting into stats to AC. At level 12. Hint: Scintillating Scales. It'd be far worse if I used Polymorph. Artificer x, where x is the current ECL of the game = pure win gish.
Slightly so. You're still wasting four feats and 5 class levels.
Large bastard sword = 2d6 damage.
Medium greatsword = 2d6 damage.
Large greatsword = 3d6 damage.
With the greatsword and power attack, you do better damage than you would with TWF, aren't stuck dividing your wealth between two weapons, and aren't wasting several extra feats to still get a lesser result. And you aren't needing a PRC to negate the to hit penalties.
TWF, as a combat style is utter garbage without some means of adding bonus damage. Such as perhaps some Scout levels for Skirmish, and a pouncing charger. Travel Devotion and turn attempts are an acceptable substitute for Pounce.
Exactly Right.
With the game mechanics as they are, TWF Melee types fall behind the curve unless they have some kinda Sneak Attack or Skimish damage. For pure killing power, without added precision based damage, you are always better served going Single Weapon/Power Attack.
*snip*
1) you do realize that you are not on the CO board right? I believe the OP was asking for something cool/fun to do not totally min/maxxed to "I kill it"
2) This was never meant to be a CO build. It was meant to be fun/cool to play. the name suggests otherwise but it was a joke. On the fun/cool front what is better than a guy running around with two giant swords?
Were I giving him optimized advice, I'd be suggesting either he go the uber charger route (which involves a bit more than 2 hander + PA) or better yet make a uber gish, melee at least twice as well as the fighter and have 9th level spells on top of that.
Instead I simply directed him away from the path of suckitude, and left the rest to him.
It's not hard to understand the difference between that and a character who does 3 digit damage a hit every hit with unhittable AC and unbeatable saves and so on.
On the fun/cool front what is better than a guy running around with two giant swords?
A guy running around with three giant swords.
A guy running around with three giant swords.
touche
A guy running around with three giant swords.
But 5 is right out!
But 5 is right out!
*consults the Book of Armaments*
Not for a Thri-Kreen with a Mouthpick weapon...
Doesn't that include your weapons?
And the rest of your equipment, for that matter.
Nope, it only happens if something strike your skin. Their combust ability doesn't do enough damage to actually harm weapons or armor. Now, CLOTH OTOH.