I'm a NG half-elf paladin of pelor and so far ive been trying to avoid as much unnecessary bloodshed as possible, really focusing on the importance of life and peace
Another PC a rogue had his family murdered by a theives guild (unknown reasons) and is out seeking vengeance, which is basiclly the quest were on at the moment. Id really like to help steer this character away from revenge at the very least away from killing anyone in anger. he's quite stubborn and to be honest not a great roleplayer so he's gonna be hard to sway
to the point: im having trouble finding the right words to stop him from doing somthing he'll regret
any roleplaying pointers would be great, you could even argue im the one in wrong here
The best I can recommend would probably be to try to get him to limit himself to those directly responsible; whoever called for the hit, and whoever did the hit. This is one of those times a Roaring Rampage of Revenge is almost appropriate.
Good points might be referencing the circle of vengeance (if he goes overboard, someone's going to want vengeance on him, and thus he's not all that different from them) and the general concept of simply the best vengeance being to become a better person and not sunk down to their level.
(At night when Katara is getting ready to leave with Zuko to find the man who killed her mother)
Aang: (Angry) So you were just going to take Appa anyway!?
Katara: Yes.
Aang: (Calmer) It's okay because I forgive you. That give you any ideas?
Katara: Don't try to stop us.
Aang: I wasn't going to. This is a journey you need to take. You need to face this man, but when you do please don't choose revenge. Let your anger out and then let it go. Forgive him.
It's a fantastic opportunity for the enemy of the paladin to throw himself at his mercy and if he kills them, he feels a deep pain in his soul as the life leaves the persons eyes. He loses his paladin abilities until he atones.
I've had a few Paladins struggle with the same issue ( think Lancelot going mad after his betrayal of king arthur) and indeed I've lost my abilities a number of times in similar circumstances then roleplayed my regret for my actions and it's become a group aspect of the character.
I'm a NG half-elf paladin of pelor and so far ive been trying to avoid as much unnecessary bloodshed as possible, really focusing on the importance of life and peace
Another PC a rogue had his family murdered by a theives guild (unknown reasons) and is out seeking vengeance, which is basiclly the quest were on at the moment. Id really like to help steer this character away from revenge at the very least away from killing anyone in anger. he's quite stubborn and to be honest not a great roleplayer so he's gonna be hard to sway
to the point: im having trouble finding the right words to stop him from doing somthing he'll regret
any roleplaying pointers would be great, you could even argue im the one in wrong here
If he's not a great role player, any effort you put into changing his character is probably doomed from the start. But Salla's 'circle of vengeance' argument is a good one, because it works as both an in-character argument and a metagame argument.
I'm going to assume that a NG paladin is house-ruled in to legality in whatever game you're playing.
There are no BS alignment restrictions in 4e. Yay!
A paladin losing themselves to anger and revenge....quality chance for roleplay. The paladin needs to understand that he\she risks losing his paladinhood if he loses himself to taking revenge and murdering the person who he hates.
The OP's paladin isn't the psycho; he's the hippy trying to talk a rogue out of a Roaring Rampage of Revenge.
There are no BS alignment restrictions in 4e. Yay!
There's also no such thing as Neutral Good in 4e, so either they houseruled in the old alignment system to 4e, or they houseruled in alternate alignments for paladins in 3e.
There are no BS alignment restrictions in 4e. Yay!
There's also no such thing as Neutral Good in 4e, so either they houseruled in the old alignment system to 4e, or they houseruled in alternate alignments for paladins in 3e.
I meant 'good' as opposed to 'lawfull good' since it would make alot more sense for a lawfull good character to just roll with it and punish everyone involved
i did remember that avatar qoute and if i can ever put it in context id probably use it
i probably shouldnt rush to saying hes a bad roleplayer lets just say he hasnt worked out his characters personality very well yet
"...Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the Orcs." - Uther Lightbringer to Arthas Menethil
Paladins are supposed to be emotionally stoic to emotions of anger. What he could say is that "While we should bring them to justice, we cannot kill them merely to sate your own hatred. If you choose to kill them in cold blood, then I will bring the hammer down on YOUR head."
Not being lawful good doesn't mean you don't step in to stop someone from being a murderer.
I think the paladin would have the rogue's back, but would try to guide him on a path of justice, not vengeance. How I would try to guide the scene, is the Rogue is standing over the bad guy with his dagger to his throat. The paladin speaks, and convinces him to leave him for the town guard. The turn to walk away, the bad guy rushes them, and they kill him in self-defense. Their relationship grows, the rogue changes as a character, the paladin explores his character more, and the badguy dies after all.
To quote an old, wise paladin,
"...Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the Orcs." - Uther Lightbringer to Arthas Menethil
Paladins are supposed to be emotionally stoic to emotions of anger. What he could say is that "While we should bring them to justice, we cannot kill them merely to sate your own hatred. If you choose to kill them in cold blood, then I will bring the hammer down on YOUR head."
Not being lawful good doesn't mean you don't step in to stop someone from being a murderer.
And this is why roleplaying Paladins should be a RP challenge as the mortal man, filled with anger and vengence must face his true enemy, his anger and hatred.
If he succumbs to his anger and murders the enemy then his Paladinhood takes a knock( loses his Paladin Daily until he atones).
I love playing Paladins for that reason, the character must face the same situations as the other characers and must strive to be whiter than white and struggle against his own human nature. As for being a NG Paladin then he more incined to bypass the Law for the greater good but that doesn't mean he'll ignore the local law and kill someone instead of taking them to the local authorities. If the local authorities are allied to the enemy and would be set free rather than getting his just deserts then any Paladin may run a Kangaroo court and make his own judgement.
The Paladin would help his friend bring the guild to justice however but would try his best to steer his friend away from murder. Not for the guild members sake but the sake of his rogue friend and his soul.
Im not sure if i should start getting preachy now or when for lack of a better example he has the knife to his throat i may even hint to expand on his personality so ive got more to work with cuz i honestly know very little all he described was his appearance and somthing about being a troublemaking child of a farming community so i dont even know if he has a good relationship with his family (not such a common thing in D&D)
NG is a difficult allignment when it comes to the subject of justice i have to walk the non existant line between established law(LG) and vigilantism (CG). all i have to work with is "life" everything i read even pelor says i should hold life above all else. im starting to sound like a monk, but i am a paladin and from the paladin point of view its also my duty to punish the enemies of my god and his doctrine ie. these assassins for taking a life.
And yes there as a high chance of corruption within the cities gaurd i havent observed any directly but a city in this state always breeds corruption
I'm even more conflicted than when we started
sorry for using 3e allignment on a 4e character i just wanted to be more specific
If he succumbs to his anger and murders the enemy then his Paladinhood takes a knock( loses his Paladin Daily until he atones).
I feel it important to note that this is a house rule. In standard D&D, there is no power removal.
It also couldn't apply unilaterally because Paladins have no alignment restrictions, so that Paladin of Bane probably wouldn't have any issues with getting angry and murdering someone.
Furthermore servants of Pelor are charged to "bring light to the darkest places" that means you got to be willing to march to the gates of hell with your friend and not lose yourself. Revenge is a tricky subject and I think you'll go a long way RP wise if you let your friend know you'll always be there for him as a servant of Pelor and a friend.
If your friend chooses to continue revenge, walk with him but don't engage him. If he asks you "what's wrong?" tell him. If he continues to walk down revenge follow him anyway and continue to be distant. Never help him gain information about the revenge but be present.
That's how I'd swing it.
I'm sorry, but that strikes me as far too wishy-washy. I don't think I could handle being anything but a lawful good paladin.
Really? You couldn't handle playing a character like Lancelot?
It doesn't strike me as so complicated.
He walked his friend to the gates of hell without losing his own resolve. In the end he ended up losing Arthas but he was patient with him beyond measure up until that point.
Edit: It just occurred to me that you may be referring to THE Uther Lightbringer from Camelot instead of Uther the Lightbringer from WoW :D. If so ignore.
"bring light to the darkest places"
Im reading that as being more metaphorical than brightening up the underdark, more like i should brighten the hearts of the fallen.
no offence but these ideas seem far too passive i will physically stop him from commiting an evil act if i have to but i was hoping to stop him before that happens
The other problem is how do i deal with a theives guild and a big one at that at least a couple of hundred members. i joked about opening a bakery for them in the hopes of getting them all stable jobs.
So here's what I'd do in your situation. First, talk him out of it if at all possible. the circle of vengeance argument is a solid one. Another my character would be more likely to use is this. "Their sins are their own. Just because their hearts are black, does not mean you should blacken yours with revenge. In the end, your soul will be judged based on what you have done, not compared to the deeds of others. Weep for your family, but follow them to heaven by living a good life. Don't stain yourself with this blood."
That being said, if he's gonna go with it, and you've got a player obligation to keep the party together anyway, follow him into the thieve's den. Knock unconscious as many as you can(remember that they player who deals the final blow can declare the enemy unconscious for no penalty). Stop as much death as you can, and try to get him to use mercy. if it comes down to it, make sure that your party members live before anyone else does.