my party is in a room and the floor starts collapsing. it is pitch black in the room. after killing an enemy, i start to go for the exit, where a rope is waiting up slippery stairs(some of the party had already left) and was ready to be climbed. There was 1 enemy left in the room, but i lost sight of them because they were on the other side, and the light spell the wizard cast didn't reach there. So i didn't know where the enemy was, but last saw him on the other side. I leave the room. The cleric behind me comes out of the room. starts insulting my valor, and everything else.
Back story is that I am on a mission from higher ups to "observe" the person. he is on parole(the cleric) from 15 year sentence for murder, and im investigating his actions/the case from a observer standpoint.
Anyway, the party, and the DM decide that it is against my paladin code of conduct, and against my diety(Bahamat) to leave the room first. I explained that it was dark, and that i couldn't tell who was where. He proceeded to tell me that i was doing a horrible job watching him, and that my ideals of helping others and protecting the weak was not being upheld.
I do not agree with this. I couldn't tell who was their, and I did not think anyone was in danger or not being able to leave the room. I didn't think to ask if anyone was still in there(which I admitted was a mistake in character, and apologized for) so i ran back in, found the rogue and left.
I was pretty much told that i was playing my character wrong, and that it almost warranted an alignment change. out of character i still think i didn't do anything "wrong" but apparently ignorance is not an excuse, and willingly or unwillingly i violated my alignment and my diety factors. any thoughts?
I understand that im supposed to be good and a straightline character, but is this not a little too far? or a little too strict? I made a small mistake of leaving a dangerous room first? or was it a huge transgression?
Your party members are not the "weak" that Bahamut wants you to do somersaults protecting. Little crippled Timmy is weak. Party members are equals. You should help party members in trouble, so the question is, were they?
Leaving does not = watching over your charge, but what foreseeable evil was he going to do? Start throwing "Hail Asmodus" gang signs in the darkness?
so, I am a lawful good paladin, dragonborn.
my party is in a room and the floor starts collapsing. it is pitch black in the room. after killing an enemy, i start to go for the exit, where a rope is waiting up slippery stairs(some of the party had already left) and was ready to be climbed. There was 1 enemy left in the room, but i lost sight of them because they were on the other side, and the light spell the wizard cast didn't reach there. So i didn't know where the enemy was, but last saw him on the other side. I leave the room. The cleric behind me comes out of the room. starts insulting my valor, and everything else.
Back story is that I am on a mission from higher ups to "observe" the person. he is on parole(the cleric) from 15 year sentence for murder, and im investigating his actions/the case from a observer standpoint.
Anyway, the party, and the DM decide that it is against my paladin code of conduct, and against my diety(Bahamat) to leave the room first. I explained that it was dark, and that i couldn't tell who was where. He proceeded to tell me that i was doing a horrible job watching him, and that my ideals of helping others and protecting the weak was not being upheld.
I do not agree with this. I couldn't tell who was their, and I did not think anyone was in danger or not being able to leave the room. I didn't think to ask if anyone was still in there(which I admitted was a mistake in character, and apologized for) so i ran back in, found the rogue and left.
I was pretty much told that i was playing my character wrong, and that it almost warranted an alignment change. out of character i still think i didn't do anything "wrong" but apparently ignorance is not an excuse, and willingly or unwillingly i violated my alignment and my diety factors. any thoughts?
I understand that im supposed to be good and a straightline character, but is this not a little too far? or a little too strict? I made a small mistake of leaving a dangerous room first? or was it a huge transgression?
paladins are not alignment restricted anymore, you just cannot be opposite alignment, you can be unaligned and still worship bahamut, gods don't give pallies thier powers anymore, initiation as a holy knight does, (some ritual)
so, I am a lawful good paladin, dragonborn.
my party is in a room and the floor starts collapsing. it is pitch black in the room. after killing an enemy, i start to go for the exit, where a rope is waiting up slippery stairs(some of the party had already left) and was ready to be climbed. There was 1 enemy left in the room, but i lost sight of them because they were on the other side, and the light spell the wizard cast didn't reach there. So i didn't know where the enemy was, but last saw him on the other side. I leave the room. The cleric behind me comes out of the room. starts insulting my valor, and everything else.
Back story is that I am on a mission from higher ups to "observe" the person. he is on parole(the cleric) from 15 year sentence for murder, and im investigating his actions/the case from a observer standpoint.
Anyway, the party, and the DM decide that it is against my paladin code of conduct, and against my diety(Bahamat) to leave the room first. I explained that it was dark, and that i couldn't tell who was where. He proceeded to tell me that i was doing a horrible job watching him, and that my ideals of helping others and protecting the weak was not being upheld.
I do not agree with this. I couldn't tell who was their, and I did not think anyone was in danger or not being able to leave the room. I didn't think to ask if anyone was still in there(which I admitted was a mistake in character, and apologized for) so i ran back in, found the rogue and left.
I was pretty much told that i was playing my character wrong, and that it almost warranted an alignment change. out of character i still think i didn't do anything "wrong" but apparently ignorance is not an excuse, and willingly or unwillingly i violated my alignment and my diety factors. any thoughts?
I understand that im supposed to be good and a straightline character, but is this not a little too far? or a little too strict? I made a small mistake of leaving a dangerous room first? or was it a huge transgression?
That is just some BS there. It is that sorta stuff that makes people not want to play paladins.
I think you should sit down with the DM and ask for the page number where it says that leaving a room first is a violation of Bahamut's codes. Also if he is coming up with his own code of conducts for paladins I would ask to review them because leaving a room before a cleric, even though you knew there was a enemy somewhere but couldn't see it, is not right.
Now one thing does come to mind, was the cleric seriously wounded to the point where he would could not physically defend himself?
As a DM, I would have OOC reminded you about your duty before letting you climb the rope. If you had left him alone after that it would possibly have warranted another OOC reminder. Alignment drift (or change if you prefer) is a serious matter that happens either over time due to small actions or after a huge fault, not from one single minor action. You certainly did nothing worthy of alignment drift in this DM's eyes. If you had, for example, decided that no matter how much good he could possibly do with the rest of his life that he can never atone for his crimes, that would be starting the path of alignment drift. If you acted on those thoughts in the dark room, allowed the rest of the group to finish leaving the room then stabbed the cleric in throat while yelling a curse at the foul creature who killed him and then escaped back into the darkness before you climbed out, then I would be calling for alignment drift.
I could not see the characters, i did not know they were there. After i was informed of this and insulted i went back in to find the last PC. I couldn't tell if the cleric was hurt, but he followed me out to tell me how bad i was doing right after my initiative turn ended.
The alignment thing isn't the big deal. the big deal is that the arguement of "ignorance doesn't make it ok" and "he could have been killed in that room because you weren't there to help him" or "anything could have happened but you weren't there to prevent it"
The DM even got on this, telling me my alignment and diety pretty much says I made a mistake and that I just need to apologize in character and start playing my character right. which, i think is horribly wrong
As an avid paladin player, I know it's sometimes required for the paladin to sacrifice himself to protect others. But you can't protect others from a falling floor or poor illumination. And unless someone call find some fine print in Bahamut's description stating otherwise, it's a BS call.
It does sound like the DM is out to get you. It's the sort of thing arguing about in-character probably won't solve. You might need to sit down with your DM out-of-character and talk.
You can't really be expected to watch this fellow to the exclusion of all else, such as living, hitting the bathroom or helping an innocent out.
A paladin is tricky because it's not so much about the rules but the spirit of the issue - which is always more complicated than the exact rule of law. You don't rule's lawyer your way out of being evil with your god.
You do your best based on your moral compass, a very complicated set of rules you (the real person) has been learning all your life. You might need to explain why to the DM though if you do something confusing.
I've been playing a Paladin a lot lately with a vow of non-violence and that has been hard. In every situation I have to remind myself not to look for excuses to fight, but rather, remember that I don't want to fight. The DM introduced undead and constructs that I was allowed to fight - but I didn't and he was very frustrated. He finally explained, quite upset, that he wrote those into the game just to give me something to do. When I explained why I didn't attack them - well, I got some serious props from other players, which was really cool, and the DM understood.
Mark Charke
IMHO, chilvarly was quite dead during the mideval era of our real world, where knights were not quite as shiny and heroic as we imagine them to be within the storybooks. They raped, they pillaged, they fled, they stole, they strongarmed etc. Even the holy warriors or were not quite the holy examples they probably set out to be. As a religious person (in real life), we are all human, we falter, our courage fails us, we are tempted and fall, we are not "gods" nor "angels".
Honestly, the human struggle to reach the unreachable (perfection of a code etc.) is what makes for great stories and the beginnings of legends. We have, as a society, since moved from perfect heroes to the non-perfect hero, the anti-hero, the bad boy or struggling warrior who steps up and become greater than himself or herself to overcome an even greater threat.
I'm judging... You're DM seems somewhat rather either inexperienced in terms of running a "roleplaying" game, or is a very strictist in reality. He should allow your character to struggle...with courage, with faith, with being a holy paladin of Bahamut, the Platinum Dragon. Personally, as a DM/GM, I rarely put in "strict" codes of behavior restrictions on players....sure, I tend to warn players when their characters are acting way out of...well, context (err, halfling and pig love...err, no), or before they commit cold blooded murder they get a warning, or if they are to do harm...yet, another warning, but what happened in your case was quite...ridiculous.
I also take it your DM has never been in "simulated" combat or whatnot...not saying that SCA/Airsoft/Paintball really reflects "real" combat, but for a DM/GM, it does add a bit more insight into stressful mass chaotic situations. Things get messy...rarely on the paintball field do I ever have a VERY clear knowledge of where ALL my teammates and opponents are...and half the time I can't even hear what they are yelling. If your Paladin was engaged in combat, then stuck in darkness, and leaves the room...whose to say that he didn't know the other characters made it out already? And seriously, he only left the room for what...six seconds, twelve seconds (in game time)... honestly, sometimes "warriors" need to step back, take a breath, and take in the stiuation to gather his sight and thoughts and re-engage in combat...much smarter than running around blind in the dark...seriously.
Your DM is off base and should be supporting you...he should not have attacked you.
Lastly, I could see where in previous editions of D&D where some "restrictions" were applied to some classes that were somewhat "overpowered"...like 1st Ed AD&D Paladins seemed like a super class to me...sure, but not in 4e, paladins are by far overpowered or even superior to other classes where they need such a hefty restriction. I currently play a pally in 4e, I should know...wish I had different paragon path choices too...heh.
Hope this makes you smile, at least a little, to know you have so much support.
Fox
The cleric behind me comes out of the room. starts insulting my valor, and everything else.
Back story is that I am on a mission from higher ups to "observe" the person. he is on parole(the cleric) from 15 year sentence for murder, and im investigating his actions/the case from a observer standpoint.
This, I like. Good roleplaying between you and the Cleric. The cleric has been (wrongly?) imprisoned for fifteen years, he's going to be cynical. Also, your Paladin is "Da Man!" so it's somewhat of a trope to rattle the cage, but I found the exchange somewhat amusing.
However, as has been stated, if the DM is going to arbitrarily decide what is and is not in accordance with your deity's code (and there's a huge difference between defeat and kill), he needs to tell you that sort of thing before you do it. Anything that counts as IC knowledge that isn't possessed OOC needs to be brought up by the DM. This whole, "If you don't remember your character doesn't remember" line is crap, because I don't have an Int 18, but my character just happens to, so I'm pretty sure his memory is better than mine, thank you.
You need to talk to your DM out of game and get on the same page as him about 4e Paladins. There is no "code of conduct" for a Paladin. They are champions of their deities, yes, and they are expected to uphold the tenets of their faith, of course. But 4e paladins don't automatically change alignment just because you wanted to make sure you were already outside when the ex-con got up there, so that he couldn't run off. After all, you are, essentially, his parole officer.
Good attitude, by the way, finding a new group sounds like a good idea.
it doesn't really matter. last night the group unanimously decided me from the group completely. /shrug. i can't say i didn't see it coming seeing as how 1 round of actions of a paladin is so jacked up to them. o well, ill find a group that isn't so eager to get rid of me.
Sorry to hear it. Some groups just don't get it. I'm glad to see that you don't intend to let them sour your opinion of the game. We need more players like you. I can't imagine how many former D&D players quit after only a few sessions because of jerkhead elitists who try to turn a hobby into a secret society.
Some people like to use gaming as their area of control or dominance. Stay away from such people.
The cleric is likely played by an a$$ who is an eloquent speaker.
Parole is a completely modern idea and any medieval society would determine the guilt and then take action.
This is something I hate about many foolish perceptions of Paladins, which is probably why I enjoy playing paladins so much. It means that I can take them by surprise when I do something that doesn't fit into their preconceived notion of what a Paladin can and can't do. It's fun to see the expressions on their faces.
Point out that it's easier to watch people when you're alive than when you're dead. If that doesn't work smash the clerics head against a stone wall a few times (Remember to tell the DM beforehand so that you don't have to roll dice or effect HP.).
Remember, Good doesn't mean you have to take insults and Lawful doesn't mean you can't respond to them.
Sounds like they had a problem with you before this incident happened, in fact I think anyone else doing the same thing as a paladin of Bahamut would not of got the same aggressive response.
Some people like to use gaming as their area of control or dominance. Stay away from such people.
you speak truths like you have experienced it. yea, i was conflicted for a while about finding a new group and was told it was really hard. and then i proved that statement wrong by finding a new DM today in fact, who when i explained the situation, told me that it was very ridiculous and stupid.
woot for happy gaming:D
you speak truths like you have experienced it. yea, i was conflicted for a while about finding a new group and was told it was really hard. and then i proved that statement wrong by finding a new DM today in fact, who when i explained the situation, told me that it was very ridiculous and stupid.
woot for happy gaming:D
Yep, I experienced it.
Glad you've got a better DM now. Things are looking up.
Overall, I think swapping groups will be a good trade.