Ok, so we are all friends and we know each other for some time now and this is the most successful game we have had. The plot is moving, the DM is right on and keeps us interested and we keep dinging. This is the good part and I'm really satisfied with it.
However I'm a little less satisfied with our party. We have:
- Lvl 4 Human Rotgue 1/Swash 3, using the feat rogue variant from UA
- Lvl 4 Elf Fighter, using the GS and has Weapon spec / focus with it
- Lvl 4 Half-Elf Ranger, using archery style
- Lvl 4 Halfling Rogue, going the usual SA and 2 weapon fighting
- Lvl 4 Dwarf Barbarian, Greataxe + PA ; me
- Lvl 4 something, dont know his class or abilities
Ok, do you notice something? Yup, you guessed, it's the lack of spells. Complete lack of any spells, in fact.
Now you would think that our group has great melee ability. Not really. Most and almost all of the damage comes from Halfling rogue double sneak attack and the GS fighter. The feat rogue is happy to hit at least once during the combat and even then, his damage is far surpassed by the Elf fighter.
The elf fighter isn't anything special at first glance, but he has incredible dice luck, which makes him our primary damage-dealer. All his rolls are over 15 or so and everybody is surprised when he rolls under 10. On the other hand, all the other people's dice don't just want to roll anything nearly as good as that (or so it seems by comparision).
So my barbarian and the feat rogue don't really have anything to show compared to him in melee abilities.
Ok, so I've thought about it and decided to reroll a druid and have got permission from our DM. But as the druid is a really complicated class, maybe you have a few tips on how to play it just right so our party would be a bit more rounded. Suggestion concerning character mechanics are welcome too.
PS. You might notice that I haven't mentioned the ranger anywhere. That is because that's what she is like in game- unnoticeable. But I forgive him- she's new to D&D and maybe our DM should take it more into consideration when running the game.
PSPS. I know the link to Druid Handbook, if that's what you gonna post :D.
As for playing a Druid, that may be tough. First you should think about how you want to play a Druid: like a do-gooder who occasionally walks up to a tree to hug it (NG) or like the incarnation of nature's wrath (NE), or something else. Consider more races than before, including barbaric ones. Think carefully about how your character became a Druid, because it's a sect, you know, and a tight-knit one at that. Then when it comes to playing, you should just play as you feel what is right. The Druid is often called to mind as one of the more powerful and versatile classes, so you could do a lot with it. If you make your character CN, you could perhaps make the character changing his/her role in the party every so often. "So what for today? Oh, I know, blasting!" "Hey, it's a bright day today, I think I'll get Summon spells ready." "Bah, I've had too much action lately. Too much combat. I think I'll stick to healing today."
I really like the CN variant- sometimes light as a breeze, but often a full blowing storm of nature's wrath. Of course, my true alignment would be shifting more towards good, but having the attitude of the end justifies the means is more to my liking.
You mentioned race as a point to consider; so far I've been pretty set on human, but you made me think. What other races would be worth considering?
As you most certainly read from my first post, I really wouldn't like to play it as another melee class but more as a versatile, useful entity.
Other thoughts on this are welcome :D.
Arm yourself with wands - a wand of Entangle, for example, is well worth it, and a wand of CLW keeps your spell-slots free for more important things.
I'm more worried about the existance of utility spells which could give the party the ability to fly or something similar...
Spirit shaman is from the CD, right? I have never even really looked at it, it just didn't intrigue me with anything. How do they differ from druids?
As to the wand part, I would sure like that, but my DM is quite insistant on not providing us with our level appropriate magical items. Also, isn't wand of of lesser vigor more effective than the usual CLW stick?
I will roll the guy up at lvl 4 and I doubt we'll be ever taking it beyond lvl 10, so that might help you suggest some more frontloaded things.
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedClasses.html
I actually once made a homebrewed custom class that was very versatile and allowed one to change his/her subtype. When I saw the Aspect of Nature Druid Variant, I smacked myself because it seemed really similar to my custom class.
As for races you could consider, there are a few savage races that have Druid as their favoured class. The only one that comes to mind immediately though is Lizardfolk, and I think it's quite fit to be a Druid. You could even play out that the Lizardman Druid dislikes other kinds of reptilian humanoids for certain reasons: Kobolds are way too technologically-focused and they cheat at games, and Troglodytes are bad company because of their smell, attitude, and their habit to cut things if they bother them, including trees and harmless little animals. Of course, Lizardfolk aren't like that. They are in tune with nature and have respect for life - as long as it doesn't harm other life. (Of course, this is seen from a Lizardman's perspective.) The only problem with Lizardfolk is their LA and racial HD.
But then there are other races to consider. Since you probably prefer staying back a little because you don't want to play the Druid as a melee class, you'll want a nice and high Wisdom score. Charisma, as nearly always, is the dump stat, but Intelligence doesn't matter very much either. A 10 would do. For the physical stats, you might want slight bonuses, especially in Dex and Con, so let's make the ability priority list like this: Wis, Con, Dex, Str, Int, Cha. Con and Dex might be changed, and if you want more Skill Points and don't care for anything melee related at all, you could switch Int and Str.
Now let's look at the list of +0 LA races:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=697653
The Anthropomorphic animals might do, since they have nice bonuses in Wis, and sometimes Dex and Con, and penalties in Str and Cha, abilities that aren't much cared about in this case. You could consider a dwarf, since they down Cha and up Con, which is good for you, but perhaps that's not too good of a choice for RP or personal reasons. I'm not going to talk about elves, since they nearly all penalize Con, which is pretty bad. Gnomes could be considered, perhaps, they give some SLAs, bonus to Con, and mostly penalize Str, but they might not be the best option for the same reasons as the dwarves. Halflings nearly all up Dex and lower Str, and they are Small, too, so you'll get hit less and will hit others more. And their fluff is nearly the same as human's. Orcs and Goblinoids aren't really good Druid choices, so I'll just skip those. But then there are the Planetouched! They pretty much all penalize Cha mainly, and Aasimar up Wis (they are also the only ones to up Cha as well). You'll also get one SLA 1/day, which might not be worth all that much, but it's better than nothing, and it might be great for RP reasons. The last race I tend to consider when making a character are the Warforged, but they penalize Wis, which is bad. They could be awesome to RP as Druids, though. Imagine a living rock suddenly becoming alight with fire (using the Aspect of Nature variant) and starting to throw around some nasty Druidic spells. I don't think a lot of enemies will see that one coming!
Spirit shaman is from the CD, right? I have never even really looked at it, it just didn't intrigue me with anything. How do they differ from druids?
Loses wild shape and animal companion, gains superior spell casting (combines most of the best features of spontaneous and prepared casters), gains a hodgepodge of spirit related abilities and a spirit guide thingy (which gives some odd bonuses, think of it as a sort of ethereal familiar, but much cooler).
So if you don't care about the melee abilities a druid gains from Wild Shape, and want to be a better caster they are quite good.
Here is a guide link, looks as if its being maintained fairly up to date.
They can also suffer less from prestige classing and the like, as they have less cool abilities then a druid which can be nice for a more flexible concept.
Jack
However, I personally wouldn't go druid right now. The party is relatively weak, as you've said, and a druid is immensely powerful. If you go that route, the party will feel overshadowed, and fast. If you really need that muscle (particularly in spellcasting) and don't want to overshadow the fighters, go with a primary arcane spellcaster. Your good spells (presently, glitterdust, grease, enlarge person, etc.) will simply make the fighters' job really easy, and they will all still feel useful.
Loses wild shape and animal companion, gains superior spell casting (combines most of the best features of spontaneous and prepared casters), gains a hodgepodge of spirit related abilities and a spirit guide thingy (which gives some odd bonuses, think of it as a sort of ethereal familiar, but much cooler).
So if you don't care about the melee abilities a druid gains from Wild Shape, and want to be a better caster they are quite good.
Here is a guide link, looks as if its being maintained fairly up to date.
They can also suffer less from prestige classing and the like, as they have less cool abilities then a druid which can be nice for a more flexible concept.
Jack
Spirit Shaman's have less alignment, weapon and armour restrictions than druids - I find a dip of Ranger gives some nice synergy with skills and some better weapons.
However, I personally wouldn't go druid right now. The party is relatively weak, as you've said, and a druid is immensely powerful. If you go that route, the party will feel overshadowed, and fast. If you really need that muscle (particularly in spellcasting) and don't want to overshadow the fighters, go with a primary arcane spellcaster. Your good spells (presently, glitterdust, grease, enlarge person, etc.) will simply make the fighters' job really easy, and they will all still feel useful.
How about Being a God? Battlefield control and buff/debuff. You do the work but the joy of accomplishment is spread around the party.
Maybe even go the Beguiler/Focused Conjurer/Ultimate Magus to get more slots and metamagic goodies but delay the highest levels so you won't outshine the party quite so much.
Or maybe Arcane Hierophant (Druid+Wizard dual progression)? It would really enhance your options but delay both progressions so you won't be overwhelming quite as fast and the party won't feel bad.
I shook the dust off my Complete Divine and now I see why I always skipped the Spirit Shaman- horrible art. What do you know- now that I've read it, I'm intrigued by it's purity and relative simplicity. However, the flavor is a bit weird, I can't seem to connect it somehow.
Also, it lacks a bit of versatility, dont you think? At 3rd level, you can have 2 + bonus 2nd lvl spells prepared, but you essentially know only one spell from 2nd level. How does that play out in game?
Being a god- never really thought about it much, except for a combination of wizard and druid meshed together with arcane hierophant. I like it how the arcane hierophant (from races of the wild) advances both spellcasting progressions, gives no ACF on wizard spells and improves your animal companion into something useful. (ok while typing this, I noticed that NordicBirch had already suggested that, guess great minds think alike :D)
'
Besides, I doubt the party would feel bad at getting rid of the barbarian who never managed anything anyways. I really look forward to being useful to the party, not overshadowing their efforts by powergaming.
Also, it lacks a bit of versatility, dont you think? At 3rd level, you can have 2 + bonus 2nd lvl spells prepared, but you essentially know only one spell from 2nd level. How does that play out in game?
You have to pick your spells carefully: Are you to be the healer, the buffer or the attacker today? You have less variety of spells but cast more of them. Scrolls and wands are your friends of course for the one-offs that you may need. With the DM you describe, take Scribe Scroll and use it for some reserves: spells you may need one of in a hurry now and then (such as Lesser Restoration, Lesser Vigor and others).
If you are the attacker, three Creeping Cold spells at 4th level means three seriously hurt or dead foes, or outdoors Briarweb doubles as a wonderful combined damage/battlefield control spell. Or you could use Animalistic Power to buff your fighters or yourself (my spirit shaman at 5th level in a party of five could buff the entire party with this). If you are the healer, Lesser Vigor is surprisingly effective as a combat healing spell. More than once a baddie has rolled over a downed PC, only to have that PC get up a few rounds later in a flanking position.
Like a wizard you have to know what you are likely to be up against and plan accordingly, like a sorcerer you can throw in spell after spell. Once you have your spell selection, though, you don't have to be economical with them; this can give your allies a lot of confidence.
Yea, with this DM, it's really hard to get magic items (our first and last magic item in the 4 levels was an amulet of natural armor that fell into a hole hundreds of feet deep- unfortunately with our cleric attached to it :P) so I will certainly be taking the scribing and item creation feats.
What would be an optimal sequence of stats for the spirit shaman? Which is more important- bonus spells from Wis or higher save DCs from Cha? I also appreciate all the first-hand experience with spirit shamns and any useful tips would be great.
It's great! 
Yay Shapeshift! 
I also like wild shape a bit more because then you don't have to put points into physical stats to do melee- just wild shape into something big and statty.
Have you maybe tried the shapeshifting variant in game and have experiences with it to offer- a lot of stuff might look good on paper and be bad in game (the opposite is also true ofcourse).
The thing why I insist on real play experiences is that I doubt my DM will allow me to change when I find out I dont really like it.
Thanks for clearing it up a bit and reinforcing my confidence in the capabilities of spirit shaman.
Yea, with this DM, it's really hard to get magic items (our first and last magic item in the 4 levels was an amulet of natural armor that fell into a hole hundreds of feet deep- unfortunately with our cleric attached to it :P) so I will certainly be taking the scribing and item creation feats.
What would be an optimal sequence of stats for the spirit shaman? Which is more important- bonus spells from Wis or higher save DCs from Cha? I also appreciate all the first-hand experience with spirit shamns and any useful tips would be great.
I did a razerclaw Shifter from Eberron (mainly because I like the concept and they fitted well with an animal-totem shaman in my opinion), which has a -2 penalty to Int and Cha but a +2 to Dex. I had stats of Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 14, and took my first level in Ranger before starting into Shaman. My background was as a war veteran who worked as a scout during the Last War, and discovered her Totem later under the tutelage of a Gatekeeper. In magic rich Eberron, I'm depending on items to boost my charisma. I recomend you take a different racial choice so you can boost your charisma higher, but I would say Wisdom is the more important stat - you can always get saveless spells after all, and you will need the higher level spells. That said, like most MAD characters two 14s beat an 18 and a 10.
If I were you would also take Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion as my feats - they will increase you use to the party and grant you access to off-list spells. Take at least one spell useful vs corporeal undead - you can't turn like a cleric, and you aren't brilliant in melee. My character used a composite longbow and didn't bother with melee weapons (razerclaws did for that if I got caught out) due to a basically low AC. Again, you may wish to pack something 'just in case', but Produce Flame is an excelent multi-use spell.
A lot of your attack spells do less kaboom and more attritional damage, but that's fine in this party as you can stay behind the fighters and blast away. Your other great use is going to be the party Magic Item Engine - when you can, Craft Wondrous Item is a great feat (after all druid spell list does not lend itself to magic arms and armour) but for now concentrate on expendables.
As to the MAD issues, I've rolled pretty good stats: 17, 16, 14, 13, 11, 10 and since I'm lvl 4, I'm entitled to a stat boost which will go to the highest stat probably.
Another thing is magic items- guess I'll be churning them out for all of our tiny party, cause our DM ain't really that generous. However, you mentioned that Craft Magic Weapons and Armor is not viable with druid spell list. What do you mean by that? Do you need specific spells to enhance weapons with +1/+2 or the suchlike?
I just realized this is one of the first full casters I am going to play since my first D&D character ever, so I want to get a lot of mileage out of this one :D.
In truth, I never really thought of wild shape as a thing to make me immensly powerful in melee- just as a viable backup plan.
As to the MAD issues, I've rolled pretty good stats: 17, 16, 14, 13, 11, 10 and since I'm lvl 4, I'm entitled to a stat boost which will go to the highest stat probably.
So you want 17 Wisdom and 16 Charisma! Suit your concept with the rest, though.
Another thing is magic items- guess I'll be churning them out for all of our tiny party, cause our DM ain't really that generous. However, you mentioned that Craft Magic Weapons and Armor is not viable with druid spell list. What do you mean by that? Do you need specific spells to enhance weapons with +1/+2 or the suchlike?
Indeed - you need Magic Weapon or Mage Armor, which are not on the Druid's list. On the plus side you can make potions of and scrolls of any spell you can cast, with Craft Wondrous Items you can make amulets of natural armour (spell required is Barkskin), Belts of Strength, and many more, wands of just about any spell you can cast with Craft Wand, and so on and so forth.
I just realized this is one of the first full casters I am going to play since my first D&D character ever, so I want to get a lot of mileage out of this one :D.
You will. The druid spell list is very versatile and you can achieve a lot with it.
It's really too bad I can't create magic weapons and armor but other than that, the character looks really solid.
As for the other feats, I am planning to take spontaneous summoner or maybe spontaneous healer. Both are usable only Wis modifier times per day though, what's the deal with that?
With 18 Wis, I could cast 4 cure spells from my spell slots and 4 summon spells, right? Without replacing any retrieved spell or anything?
It's really too bad I can't create magic weapons and armor but other than that, the character looks really solid.
People usually say that you can have someone else cast the spell if you have the feat and do the actual crafting (pay the costs etc) but I'm not sure if it's a widely adopted houserule or in the books.
Thanks for all the tips kelvin, I really appreciate your insights on this!
It's really too bad I can't create magic weapons and armor but other than that, the character looks really solid.
As for the other feats, I am planning to take spontaneous summoner or maybe spontaneous healer. Both are usable only Wis modifier times per day though, what's the deal with that?
With 18 Wis, I could cast 4 cure spells from my spell slots and 4 summon spells, right? Without replacing any retrieved spell or anything?
You would have to quiz your DM on that front, as I don't have the rules in front of me. I expanded my spell-list with Gatekeeper Initiate, which my DM ruled would add to my Retrieved Spells permanently - this isn't exactly game-breaking as the spells are largely of limited use anyway. If he rules that (in effect) they add the cure and summon spells permanently to your list, that's great. Personally, having played the class and looking at your circumstances I'd say the item building feats are more important for you. If you can make curing wands and summoning scrolls, you don't need the spell-slots. In your party the spell support is more important than the on the fly curing, unless you plan to blow all your spells healing.
Now what could the human bonus feat be? I could fit something like spontaneous summoner/healer there, but I doubt it's usefulness. You mentioned Gatekeeper Initiate; would you mind to say which book is it from so I could check it out?
Ok, I would have access to 3 feats since I am level 4 and human. These would be Scribe Scroll (1st), ... (human bonus) and Craft Wonderous Items (3rd). At 6th level, I would probably take craft wand then (really sad that it doesn't come earlier).
Now what could the human bonus feat be? I could fit something like spontaneous summoner/healer there, but I doubt it's usefulness. You mentioned Gatekeeper Initiate; would you mind to say which book is it from so I could check it out?
Eberron Campaign Setting, and unfortunately very specific to it so you will need to talk to you DM if you aren't playing Eberron. It gives you Protection from Evil (1st), Zone of Natural Purity (2nd), Dimensional Anchor (3rd) and others, one for each spell level.
Your third feat really depends on what your theme is; it's very much up to you. As you are going to hang back a lot; you may want to take a martial weapon for when the spells run out, boost your AC or saves ... I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would work best for you. I would say that Improved Initiative is always hand for hitting first ...
The shapeshifting variant- isn't it considerably weaker than the druid in PHB?
I also like wild shape a bit more because then you don't have to put points into physical stats to do melee- just wild shape into something big and statty.
Have you maybe tried the shapeshifting variant in game and have experiences with it to offer- a lot of stuff might look good on paper and be bad in game (the opposite is also true ofcourse).
The thing why I insist on real play experiences is that I doubt my DM will allow me to change when I find out I dont really like it.
It might be weaker, but it's much easier, and it's still very strong. Since it's a swift action to shift, you've also a lot more easy time, tactically, than with traditional wild-shape, which makes up for some numerical weakness. Also, natural spell may not work, but since shifting is merely a swift action, you're not quite as dependent on it, and you can shift as often as you like, so you're not liable to run intro troubles concerning not being able to talk but not wanting to shift to save a wild-shape effect.
Before you take it, point out to your DM that's it's not stronger, and that you're doing everyone a favor by taking it, but do ask that he allow (where reasonable) wild-shape "enhancements" to apply to shapeshift too. Specifically, Wilding clasps and Wild armor are useful to you, and not very reasonable to forbid, although a literal reading doesn't allow em.
Shapeshift does allow for a quite high AC since although it's strength is an enhancement bonus and doesn't stack, its natural armor is not, and thus does stack with barkskin. At high levels a wilding clasped monk's belt or a wild armor can keep you easily competitive.
Wild shape is less flexible, much more complex and time-consuming, and occasionally broken. Neither is fun as a player, so you're better off taking shapeshift. If you're consuming 80% of the on-table time grappling with the complex rules of your animal companion, summons and various wild shape forms and the combination of buffs that changes all the time, and are completely domination the battlefield (which you will at higher levels, if the rest of the party is not optimized), the game will run into trouble. With wild shape, it will take you several rounds to buff up, but then you'll be unstoppable. What has actually happened to me twice with a wild-shaping druid was that the rest of the party died before I could take action. And when I could, I utterly dominated the battlefield, and despite immaculate preparation (I spent hours preparing various shortened battle stats for the various form+buff combos), I was still taking longer than the other players on-table.
You're better off being strong right off the bat, and working well with the rest of the party. Shapeshift works better, and it's far from weak (but you will need a high strength - as high as it will go).
I was so looking forward to having my own little parrot sitting on my shoulder...
Also with the shapeshifting variant, I'm going to have to do some real manuevering with my stats, cause all of them matter now. Other than this, it looks pretty good. I shall definately consider it.
Thanks, eamon, for breaking it apart for me this good! However, I don't like it that it removes my animal companion. It's not like the companion is so broken with shapechange that it shouldn't be allowed.
I was so looking forward to having my own little parrot sitting on my shoulder...
Also with the shapeshifting variant, I'm going to have to do some real manuevering with my stats, cause all of them matter now. Other than this, it looks pretty good. I shall definately consider it.
Indeed, an animal companion isn't overpowered, but it's mostly useful at low levels - and that's where shapeshift is simply better than wildshape. An animal companion is also extra administration, so if you're looking for easy, then that helps. And I'm always looking for easy stuff
.As a druid you have a choice not to really max out wisdom. You only really need a high wisdom for the high DC saves vs. your spells, but not all spells allow for a save, and many of your spells are defensive anyhow. That's a choice: are you an offensive caster or not? If you are, the 18 needs to go into wisdom. If you're not, even the 14 can suffice, though you'll eventually need items to boost it.
I'd say Str 16 Dex 13 Con 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 10 looks playable, and of course switching Str and Wis is possible.
If you're wild shaping, it's easier, and you'll want to put your highest stat into Wis, and the 16 into Con. Everything else is less important. A reasonable dex is handy for when you're not shifted.
Good luck, anyhow!
I have talked to my DM and gotten the permission to play a Human Shapeshifting Druid with Scribe Scroll, Create Wondrous Item and Spontaneous Healer feats. However, I may or may not have to roll the stats again in front of my DM so that area is still gray. As I understand, the importance of stats goes in the following order: Wis - Str - Con - Dex - Int/Cha, so that's not a big problem.
Just one question: is the array 16/16/14/14/10/10 prefarable over what I have previously posted?
Maybe if the DM is kind enough he will let me use it, cause that's what my last character had unmodified.
In fact, consider with both arrays the order: Wis - Int - Con - Dex - Str/Cha.
Why? Because you could later dip to Wizard and Craft Magic Arms and Armour suddenly gets a real possibility, Maybe even go Mystic Theurge (normally not a good option for a primary spellcaster, but if you are the ONLY real caster, it could be worthwhile - if you do, take Practiced Caster twice to keep you casting levels up there). It's likely what I'd do with an array that good.
Also, with me taking both practiced caster feats, I'd be really starving for other feats.
Thanks for the advice though, I really appreciate it.
PS. I'm expecting the feat rogue/swash to drop his character too and probably roll a sorcerer, so we might actually have a nice party composition after all, which is what this thread was all about. :D