That leads me to my dilemma: one of the other PCs is a sociopathic dwarf who's purely out to serve himself. As far as my character, Shadar, is aware, he's aided the lieutenant actively once and talked to him on another occasion about how he'd benefit from aiding the BBEG. Out of character, he's also aided the guy on two other occasions.
That said, he has been fairly reliable in fighting alongside the party--leaving the lieutenant alone, but otherwise helping us in combat. Because of that, so far I've stuck to warnings and glares. But I'm concerned about how to deal with it if he continues helping the enemy.
I've read Rich Burlew's piece on making the hard decisions: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html ... it's definitely a good read, and I agree with the general idea. I don't want to resort to party-on-party violence. The guy who plays the sociopath would get a kick out of it, but I'm pretty sure it'd **** off some of the other players. Plus I just don't think it's a good idea for general party relations. But I guess I'm not a good enough roleplayer to come up with remotely feasible reasons not to kill the damn dwarf if he keeps helping the people trying to cast down the gods (and who have killed me in past lives).
I talked to my DM about it, and he pointed out that it's a reasonable calculated decision to leave the dwarf around as long as he keeps helping us, and only resorting to violence against him if/when his aid to the enemy has some impact. That does make some sense, but at some point it gets ridiculous to rely on someone who A) expressed an interest in joining the enemy if the benefits were sufficient; and B) actually helped the bad guys, albeit not in a way that made a difference (that I'm aware of). I don't really buy it, personally. Logically, it seems like pure folly to let someone like that run around doing his thing. To me, personally, as well as to a pretty smart, logical character (20 int).
Any thoughts?
You also may want to ask the DM if he plans on running that sociopath at some point, because having a player run what is going to amount to "one of the monsters" is like having two DMs, one of whom is out to get you. This is supposed to be a cooperative game, and if someone wants to play a sociopath, that's fine, but it's up to him to make the PC work with his party.
One of my main 4e campaign players runs a sociopath drow (are't they all?;)). In KotS, he stated OOC that if he thought he could advance his own position, he was going to betray the party to Kalarel. As it came down to it, Kalarel proved to not be hiring. Havoc hung in there with the party, even plunging into the portal after Ronin, his teammate (I tweaked the portal so it wasn't an instant killer). After such a selfless act, he went back to his old, manipulative ways and his moods and actions sway from one extreme to the other. What is key, however, is that he works with the party. I've tossed him other temptations along the way, and some of the lesser ones he's bitten at, but the player knows that for the game to work, the players must be a team.
I'm trying to sort out how to deal with a sticky RP situation in my game. I'm playing a good-aligned Deva avenger who has been, for a number of lifetimes, fighting against the central enemy in our campaign. We don't know who exactly that central enemy is, but we have had recurring encounters with one of his lieutenants. That lieutenant is basically our BBEG thus far (we're only in late heroic, so I'm guessing it'll develop beyond him eventually). The central enemy (and his lieutenant) is trying to bring about the downfall of the gods. Kinda bad from an avenger's perspective, even setting aside any personal history.
That leads me to my dilemma: one of the other PCs is a sociopathic dwarf who's purely out to serve himself. As far as my character, Shadar, is aware, he's aided the lieutenant actively once and talked to him on another occasion about how he'd benefit from aiding the BBEG. Out of character, he's also aided the guy on two other occasions.
That said, he has been fairly reliable in fighting alongside the party--leaving the lieutenant alone, but otherwise helping us in combat. Because of that, so far I've stuck to warnings and glares. But I'm concerned about how to deal with it if he continues helping the enemy.
I've read Rich Burlew's piece on making the hard decisions: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html ... it's definitely a good read, and I agree with the general idea. I don't want to resort to party-on-party violence. The guy who plays the sociopath would get a kick out of it, but I'm pretty sure it'd **** off some of the other players. Plus I just don't think it's a good idea for general party relations. But I guess I'm not a good enough roleplayer to come up with remotely feasible reasons not to kill the damn dwarf if he keeps helping the people trying to cast down the gods (and who have killed me in past lives).
I talked to my DM about it, and he pointed out that it's a reasonable calculated decision to leave the dwarf around as long as he keeps helping us, and only resorting to violence against him if/when his aid to the enemy has some impact. That does make some sense, but at some point it gets ridiculous to rely on someone who A) expressed an interest in joining the enemy if the benefits were sufficient; and B) actually helped the bad guys, albeit not in a way that made a difference (that I'm aware of). I don't really buy it, personally. Logically, it seems like pure folly to let someone like that run around doing his thing. To me, personally, as well as to a pretty smart, logical character (20 int).
Any thoughts?
I'm not particularly coherent today, but I hope I can make explain my ideas well-enough.
Since a number of your deva's past lives have been ended by this central enemy (or at least in pursuit of a goal to stop said central enemy), your character may be open to some type of indirect-opposition instead of something more direct (which we may assume was the previously failed course of action). This self-serving dwarf may be a key to that. Instead of righteous indignation, attempt to use this dwarf as a leveraging tool to get yourself closer to the BBEG and/or his lieutenant and see what you can do to disrupt the BBEG's plans from a different angle.
The idea isn't necessarily that you become evil, or even morally-grey, but that (due to previous failures) you play a sort-of cloak and dagger game of political intrigue using the dwarf as the focal point to get that rolling.
Now, granted, I don't know the campaign specifics, but if you talk to the DM about your plans, it would hopefully provide a meaningful way for your character to continue adventuring in the world while continuing to strive towards your goals without in-game or out-of-game party fighting.
You also may want to ask the DM if he plans on running that sociopath at some point, because having a player run what is going to amount to "one of the monsters" is like having two DMs, one of whom is out to get you. This is supposed to be a cooperative game, and if someone wants to play a sociopath, that's fine, but it's up to him to make the PC work with his party.
I could not agree more. I think your DM has dropped the ball a bit here. I don't understand why DMs let players play sociopathic characters that are going to plot along with the bad guys. If this dwarf is not going to be a team player, why is he in the team?
How to get rid of him is a bit dificult however. I would say to your DM that this player/dwarf is distupting play with his betrails and (if you can get the other players backing) the group wants him (the character, not the player) to leave. There's plenty of charaters that a person can play without betraying the party.
As for the DM being a part of the problem, that's really not the case. Thus far, the character's actions in favor of the BBEG haven't actually hurt the party. They've been relatively speculative, or have simply gone against the NPCs that we're working with (e.g. after we captured the lieutenant, we took him to leader of the militant order at the temple of Bahamut, who we'd been working with. He was being interrogated and would later be executed. The dwarf sneaked a weapon into his holding cell before we left on the next leg of our adventure, to give him a chance to escape. He ended up being executed anyway, and he just showed up a couple sessions later, stepping out of a portal from the Nine Hells with a horde of undead, trying to keep us from getting an object of power we were after).
Mercurion, I'm actually a huge fan of the idea of using the dwarf to get closer to the BBEG. The campaign isn't all that focused on political intrigue, but it could work just as well in a more direct method. It also seems like a great motivation for not killing the dwarf.
And as for why killing him is the way to go... Shadar is an avenger dedicated to Tempus. That's kind of what he does when it comes to bad guys. As a Deva, with a more personal relationship with the gods, it's easier to find workarounds than dealing with a church's teachings, so that's been useful to me in the past. But it'll only carry me so far.
The dwarf performs some sort of deed in favor of the villains. After performing that act, whatever it is, have the bad guys betray him. In the worst possible way. Maybe he does something relatively minor, like smuggling a few weapons to some other bad guy. And when he gets to the people he's delivering them to, he finds them dead. Killed by the same kind of weapon he's carrying. And then the town guard/royal knights/police/whatever bust in right after that. And your dwarven friend has just been set-up for murder by the people he was working for. Heck, make the dead guy a friend of the dwarf's just for flavor. He'll naturally try to get away, possibly even trying to convince them he didn't do it. Ultimately he's going to need protection from the people trying to get him, and he'll need help clearing his name. And now there'll be bad blood between him and the bad guys he worked for before. Who tried to get him killed? The bad guy. Who saved him? The party. Not only will it get him in tighter with your group, but it'll also leave future adventure hooks for the DM. Why is the dwarf suddenly expendable? Look into it and also find out this other valuable bit of the bad guy's plans. What will the bad guy do now that he failed to get rid of the dwarf? Try to get him again, of course. Instant Adventure. What happens when the dwarf clears his name, and people learn the truth behind the murder? Ooh, political intrugue.
I get from reading the OP's post that he's taking the RP portion of it too seriously. I understand the motivations for it, understand it thematically with what you're doing, but really if this guy is your friend and it isn't a personal conflict between two people you should be able to come to an agreement with the three of you. Everyone knew that B.A. wouldn't fly, so there was an agreement on how to get him on the plane. Everyone knows Belkar is evil, but Roy uses his evil to help acheive his good goals.
take the advice with a grain of salt, but lighten up and play up the roleplaying conflict for all its worth. It sounds like a fun interpersonal dynamic that can add incredible depth to the story and your characters.
ANyway if it was me, i'd play him. You know he's in cohorts to some extent so use it. Since you've failed for a few lifetimes now it's time for something a little different. I believe you've heard, keep your friend close and enemies closer? My dad used to say; "THere are two types of ppl in life, pawns and kings. Kings get to move themselves, pawns get moved; and sacrificed."
Well, being a good alignment hinders you a little. But you could feed him some fake info leading the bbeg into a trap. If you can find out where they're next meet is, you can do the good version of what chimera said. No dead bodies, but illegal smuggling with some document "poorly hidden" stating an attempt to overthrow the local authority. HEck, if you can get the local authority to arrest the bbeg, you jobs half done. Heck, getting the bbeg outlawed by the locals would be a nice step. I cant give you a specific plan since i dont know all the details but you get the idea.
I just came up with a nice trap idea. Your going to need a willing gm bu it shoulds work.
1st, ditch your party, you need to do this solo.
2nd, you to come up with a magical teleportation device, liek a portkey from harry potter, something like that. Deck it out with runes that do nothing but look impressive. Set the destination to a jail cell with a no out TP.
EDIT: A ritual that stops TP's out. If it stops both, have the destination just above the "open top" and let him fall in.
3rd, your going to need a dungeon, so you gm is going to have to come up with one. If you can find one with monsters already in it, great, if not pay some to move it. Goblin, and hobgoblins are notorious for being stupid and take bribes. YOu could also try and get the help of a good dragon. Most dragons have kobolds hanging around and a good one might be will to lend you some. Ofcoarse, if the good dragon kobolds get killed you may have to pay for a rez for them.
4th, put the "rune stone" on an altar with the desination close by or insight.
5th, time to get the party.
6. that night, tell party you've tracked down a powerful artifact that will let you scry and track down anyone including BBEG. Its a few miles away if dungeon of "insert crazy scary name".
7. Let dwarf do his thing.
8. Intentional lose race to BBEG, but be right on his heels. When he grab powerful artifact he gets TP into you trap. As long as you stay on his heels, he wont have time to spend studing it to realize its a trap. Plus you attacking/killing any of his minions wont give him a clue since your just preventing his guys from "taking the artifact you need".
9. Make sure when your about to get to "artifact" you tell your party not to touch "artifact", just stop anyone from getting to it.
10 hoep everthing goes to plan. It probably wont. So be prepared to push/slide/whatever bbeg into artifact jut incase.
11. hope you have an atleast ok bluff.
good luck.
Agreed. The frame up suggestion was real good, although we could put the "dwarf gets set up by BBEG". What is the BBEG's ultimate plan for the dwarf? Most likely he's just a pawn in his grand scheme of things [yeah I like the articles in GiantITP
] or maybe he's actually a sergeant himself... although it's likely the former than the latter, which brings us to : what do we do to make him more reliable?I'd say have the DM make the decisions on this since he's the one playing the BBEG, and if the dwarf *is* an expendable pawn in the BBEG's schemes, there will be an encounter where the dwarf would end up being duped/framed/killed/heavily injured/whatever, and may actually turn to the party for help, if nothing else (or if he is someone who really reveres the BBEG to the point of perceived insanity, he would still follow them to the ends of the earth... at which point he may either be killed in an unfortunate [solo] random encounter, or would become your enemy).
As a player though, I'd say confront him and talk it out -- RP-like, not out of character -- whether alone or with the rest of the group. Have a bunch of Diplomacy/Intimidation vs Will & Insight vs Bluff checks to accompany that, eventually forcing the dwarf to maybe even help you guys out by spilling anything and everything he knows...
That leads me to my dilemma: one of the other PCs is a sociopathic dwarf who's purely out to serve himself. As far as my character, Shadar, is aware, he's aided the lieutenant actively once and talked to him on another occasion about how he'd benefit from aiding the BBEG. Out of character, he's also aided the guy on two other occasions.
Something similiar to this happened once in a similiar style game - in a 3.5e game, the PC Rogue had conspired to get the paladin indirectly killed by telling the BBEG where he'd be and when.
Needless to say, as soon as my mage found out, he cast Hold Person on the rogue and slit her throat.
The end.
Seems like your dwarf has done something similar multiple times. I recommend slaughtering him.