Hi all,
I apologise in advance if this situation has been brought up before,here is the story:
My character is a "good" aligned cleric,tonight at our session our "neutral" aligned twin blade wielding ranger killed an unarmed prisoner after question him (he was a hobgoblin and the rangers back story meant he really hated hob goblins).
Playing in character my character drew my bow and said "If that happens again,you will die". His character said "If you raise my bow to me again I will kill you"
It got really weird and I think I've rather painted myself into a corner.
Should I look the other way next time? It's bad two characters in a party going toe to toe,there were other "good" aligned characters in the group that were happy to see the hob goblin get it.
What would you do?,have you been in this predicament yourself? Next session could get ugly.....fast.
Any advice welcome
I will assume that your characters are friends.
As a good aligned character you would try to reason with your fellow party members instead of trying to use threats to force him to do what you want. Of course that may not work. I would also try to get the group to agree as a whole about how to handle all future prisoners. Some may need to be killed, other may not.
how I would handle this depends on if there has already been a pattern of tension or disunity. If so, the only way that it can truely resolve itself is if you let things take their natural course -- which means that you will eventually have a PvP. let it happen. as soon as it is done, take a time-out and explain to them in no uncertain terms that if this kind of stuff continues, then the party (and thus the campaign) is doomed to failure. if this episode was the result of one particular player just being a contrarion, then let him know (again, in very clear terms) that for everybody to have fun, he needs to be more party-friendly.
I just get really sick of this whole "well, that's what my character would do" thing. Well, it is the player that has made a decision on how his character will behave -- stop hiding behind your character to try to justify the fact that you want to be a @!#($&*. also, just because somebody is of a certain alignment doesn't mean that they have to be disruptive -- tell them to look in to a concept of "enlightened self-interest" (it's an actual philosophical school of thought).
Now, if this is an isolated incedent, then suggest that the party do an AAR (after action review), and work it out. things will usually resolve fairly quickly once everybody learns how to communicate effectively (a little planning never hurt either).
Thank you for the prompt replies,
The guy who plays the ranger is a nice chap and I enjoy gaming with him,this situation came out of left field.
My character asked that his character give an assurance that prisoner killing would stop,his character said no.One of the other players(the fighter) said after the session said he would have chimed in to knock my cleric out rather than have any killing.
I'm kind of thinking,well,maybe I am being a bit overbearing,maybe look the other way next time,then again,we will move on from KotSF to the next module and the situation will happen again.
Perhaps its time for me to get a alternate character sheet ready,keep the replies coming.
As a little bit of background,the whole group in RL only gets together when we play d and d,its a bit of a real life PUG,we are having fun and there has been little drama till now,the guy who plays the ranger came in mid way through KotSF,no consensus on dealing with prisoners has been reached..yet
From my experience nothing good ever comes from PC vs PC confrontation. It's bad enough you have the DMs monsters/npcs to deal with, but violent tension (in game) between two or more players is going to really hamper you. Talk with your DM and the player together and come to some reasonable concession as to how to handle your characters. Especially since you don't know each other that well, talking about it could head off some serious problems in the future. Once you all see some what eye to eye things should feel better...hopefully.
Ask the ranger flat out before the next session "Hey if this does go into PVP are you ok with that? If not, I will drop the idea in game, and tone down my 'you will die' threats, into simple debates. If you are fine with it, we will carry out our fight as it plays out. I am fine either way."
Depending on how he answers, either tone your threats down to a more modest lecture on the value of all life, or go ahead and attack.
Most of the time PVP doens't work at all, but occasionally groups can handle it. (Also, you will probably loose the fight, striker vs leader and all so be prepared for that).
You could also take an alternative route. Perhaps instead of challenging him to a duel, you explain that your god does not tolerate such murderous behavior. If he does it again, you refuse to use your spells to provide any aid to him. They next time he's hurting for HP and already used his Second Wind, he might rethink having you on his bad side.
You could also take an alternative route. Perhaps instead of challenging him to a duel, you explain that your god does not tolerate such murderous behavior. If he does it again, you refuse to use your spells to provide any aid to him. They next time he's hurting for HP and already used his Second Wind, he might rethink having you on his bad side.
That could possibly work, given that the Ranger will start running low on Healing Surges throughout the day.
My suggestion to the OP: Work things out, man up, and be a happy roleplayer. I don't necessarily agree with what your comrade did, but those types of events provide good roleplaying sessions.... at least in my opinion. Don't worry about it too much, but if he continuously does it, then disassociate your character from his character.
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YOu guys have no sense of humor!!!!!!!!!
!
You could also take an alternative route. Perhaps instead of challenging him to a duel, you explain that your god does not tolerate such murderous behavior. If he does it again, you refuse to use your spells to provide any aid to him. They next time he's hurting for HP and already used his Second Wind, he might rethink having you on his bad side.
That indeed is a course of action,and honestly,one i thought of during the end of the last session when the ranger was enveloped in a jelly cube.
It's complicated buy the fact that next session our fighter will be absent for the boss battle so we have a situation where the cleric in a party will be refusing to heal our only striker.
Not ideal.
I'm leaning towards reiterating my objection to prisoner killing next session,and as Bone_naga opines,lecturing rather than threatening next time it happens.I must admit this seems a bit week,however,the alternative is a dead cleric near the end of KotSF with a Ranger,rogue and bard to face the music.
And Ive got to remind myself,its a game,after all
Playing in character my character drew my bow and said "If that happens again,you will die". His character said "If you raise my bow to me again I will kill you"
If your character is of good alignment, why would he immediately jump to death threats? I think that's even an overreaction from the other character, but it's more understandable.
Wouldn't it have been more in line with your character's personality to take a more diplomatic approach? Even if your character utterly condems the other character's action, kicking the other char out of the group would probably have been more appropriate than playing judge, jury and executioner in one go. Drawing on him to underscore the threat was over the top as well - it's not the next time yet - unless you were expecting a violent reaction. That just caused the whole situation to escalate.
Ask the ranger flat out before the next session "Hey if this does go into PVP are you ok with that? If not, I will drop the idea in game, and tone down my 'you will die' threats, into simple debates. If you are fine with it, we will carry out our fight as it plays out. I am fine either way."
Depending on how he answers, either tone your threats down to a more modest lecture on the value of all life, or go ahead and attack.
Most of the time PVP doens't work at all, but occasionally groups can handle it. (Also, you will probably loose the fight, striker vs leader and all so be prepared for that).
this.
but as to the idea that a good aligned character would not kill a murderer... that is silly. if this is a cleric that feels ally ranger has acted as a murderer of an innocent (well, maybe not innocent, but helpless) prisoner, making a threat of justice against the ranger wasn't so out of alignment.
i'm not going to say that your characters actions were wrong, but it seems like you think that it could have been handled differently and that the outcome may have been better. here are my ideas on how you could have handled it different. whether these ideas seem valid is up to you.
even if your character is good, that doesn't mean that he/she is lawful good. technically, seeing as how hobgoblins are usually evil aligned your character has no obligation to keep the hobgolin alive. there can even be some advantages to killing the hobgoblin, such as ensuring that he cannot follow your party or backstab you. so it is possible for good aligned characters to be ok with a party member killing a hobgoblin.
if your character does have problems with killing a hobgoblin, he/she could have tried to stop the other character before he delivered the coup de grace. if this still isn't enough, you can lecture him afterwards (and there is nothing that a clergy member loves more than delivering a good sermon).
the last option is exactly what your character did: threaten the murderer. even though it may seem like there is a tension between the characters, this isn't a bad thing. use the tension as part of your roleplaying. or you can forget about the whole incident and act like it never happened.
even if your character is good, that doesn't mean that he/she is lawful good. technically, seeing as how hobgoblins are usually evil aligned your character has no obligation to keep the hobgolin alive. there can even be some advantages to killing the hobgoblin, such as ensuring that he cannot follow your party or backstab you. so it is possible for good aligned characters to be ok with a party member killing a hobgoblin.
I don't think the character should be ok with it just because the hobgoblin is evil. Alignment is no longer a tangible concept, the cleric can't Detect Evil and say "Yep he's evil, go ahead and kill him." Murdering a helpless prisoner tends not to sit well with good characters, lawful or not. Even if most other hobgoblins the party had encountered had shown themselves to be evil, a good character would likely hold himself to a higher standard and make each decision based on the individual in question. The only way I can see him being ok with this is if he had knowledge of evil acts that this particular hobgoblin had committed, and determined that death was an appropriate punishment, in which case it would have been an execution instead of murder. It does not sound like this was the case.
Unaligned
Just let me go about my business.
If you're unaligned, you don't actively seek to harm others or wish them ill. But you also don't go out of your way to put yourself at risk without some hope for reward. You support law and order when doing so benefits you. You value your own freedom, without worrying too much about protecting the freedom of others. A few unaligned people, and most unaligned deities, aren't undecided about alignment. Rather, they've chosen not to choose, either because they see the benefits of both good and evil or because they see themselves as above the concerns of morality. The Raven Queen and her devotees fall into the latter camp, believing that moral choices are irrelevant to their mission since death comes to all creatures regardless of alignment.
The ranger is Unaligned, but everyone is focusing on your alignment as a "Good" character. Keep in mind that being Unaligned doesn't necessarily mean you can do whatever you want. That tends to fall toward an evil, or chaotic evil alignment. If the guy continues doing evil things, then give him a heads-up of what he's doing again. Try to be the devil's advocate for your group.
The thing about 4th edition, is that they've put less focus on how strict alignment needs to be.
the cleric would be completely in line in refusing to give the ranger his direct support. as a matter of fact, if the ranger acts in such a way that is in direct opposition to the cleric's/god's beliefs/philosophy, the cleric maybe out of line to not refuse support. If the ranger continues this approach, he does so as a deliberate decision -- and one that is fully informed of all the context and consequences.
the intra-party conflict will continue until some sort of consesus has be met -- there's no getting around that.
It's bad enough you have the DMs monsters/npcs to deal with, but violent tension (in game) between two or more players is going to really hamper you.
This right here is what trips up most people when it comes to PvP.
There is a difference between Player vrs Player, and PC vrs PC. Once you figure it out PCvrsPC becomes just another story element.
sigh... remember: alignment doesn't DICTATE what you do. unless your a palladin, you don't lose your alignment just for one off-alingment action. For instance, a CG rouge could be a champion of the people, resisting oppression from any source, but still could steal from the wealthier as he figgures they have cash to spare, anyways. Such theft isn't good, but he can still do it and be CG.
sigh... remember: alignment doesn't DICTATE what you do. unless your a palladin, you don't lose your alignment just for one off-alingment action. For instance, a CG rouge could be a champion of the people, resisting oppression from any source, but still could steal from the wealthier as he figgures they have cash to spare, anyways. Such theft isn't good, but he can still do it and be CG.
Paladins don't have that problem in 4e, thank Ceiling Cat.
At any rate, make it a point to call the Ranger a murderer when you can, and remind him that's pretty hobgoblinish behavior to kill a helpless captive. Start playing the ' you're no better than them' card.
I do not see restricting your healing to him while in combat a good thing... he is your party member and by doing that, you are essentially risking the lives of the rest of your party by willingly allowing a ally to perhaps die. You have agreed to journey with him, and will fulfill your role until you are safe and those you group with are safe.
Once safe though, a stern word of warning that you will not consider him an ally if he pulls a stunt like that again, as it is against your beliefs, would be in order. If you have a history as a team or have journeyed together for some time, he should respect your beliefs. He does not have to agree with them, but should not wish to commit actions that anger his friends/allies.
If he is stubborn in his ways, tell him you will keep him alive as long as battle commences in the future, as you do not wish his actions to hamper everyone else, but outside of combat he can use his own resources and you will distance yourself from his actions (no healing words to improve HP recovery, that sort of thing). Also explain clearly that is he does it again, you and your God will turn your back on him.
This should make your message clear.
lol! honestly i cant count how many times that has happened: it depends really; you could ask IC about what happen to make him hate goblins so much...then you could accept it or try to mend what emotion scar he bears......unless your a cleric who is more polictical who just does whatever he can do for church offerings in which i just say look the other way for now.....or just smite him in his sleep and say it was a mercy killing(thats what i would do )
I was once playing a lawful good cleric of Bahamut and I convinced the rogue in the group (OOC) to bribe an unarmed prisoner for information, then kill them and take back the gold. Wow, but you are a much better cleric than me. 