Soon, I'm going to be entering a 3.5 game, and I had the idea of making a paladin devoted to a country instead of a deity or a "cause." Not that I actually expect to get divine power by worshipping the Constitution, or anything like that, but I wondered if there was a good way to make it work without making my pally really obnoxious (At least not more so than most paladins). Therefore, I've got some questions:
1. What kind of gimmicks can my paladin use to convey what he is?
2. What kind of effect do you think this might have on my Paladin's Code?
3. Are there any feats or abilities that you can think of that are exceptionally patriotic?
4. How much would it cost me to get a magic item that would create a ghost sound and minor image so I can get the "Flag and Anthem" effect?
5. Is this likely to annoy everyone else at the gaming table?
I've got one important question for you: To what country is your Paladin devoted? This choice can make all the difference. You shouldn't have any trouble with a lawful good government. An evil government gives you at least a lot more to think about, at the very least.
The 'racialist' ideology and quasi-spirituality, the belief in the superiority of their race above 'fleshlings' and a thrive to be free - and more... It was Lawfull Evil. And now, you could easily make a paladin of the LoB...
I'm not familiar with the campaign setting, but let's assume for the moment that I'm following a lawful, good, or lawful good government of some kind, probably NOT a theocracy.
Then, as was said, you're playing Captain America, at least as he exists in the idealized Marvel U.
I did that at one point, but he was a Crusader/Warblade/Fighter who specialized in his shield, not a Paladin.
The only thing I could see changing from a typical Paladin is the Turn Undead ability. That doesn't seem to make much sense from a purely patriotic bent.
I'm not familiar with the campaign setting, but let's assume for the moment that I'm following a lawful, good, or lawful good government of some kind, probably NOT a theocracy.
Well, the ideal is closer to a pre-modern, proto-fascistic autocracy...
Works fine so far, except when he decides to stop to try to loot an abandoned shop instead of pursuing the Sharran priest who just killed a guy in the street right outside.
Then, as was said, you're playing Captain America, at least as he exists in the idealized Marvel U.
...So should I get armor emblazoned with stars and stripes, then? /half-serious.
I don't plan on altering the actual paladin class itself to make this character. I'm just wondering how I can make my paladin more patriotic. That's where my questions in the first post were supposed to lead... incidentally, no one has addressed all of them at once as of yet...
1. What kind of gimmicks can my paladin use to convey what he is?
I'm not sure you need any sort of gimmicks, though having the nation's flag emblazoned on your shield (and perhaps used as a holy symbol) would definitely fit. Just roleplay his devotion to the country he loves more than life.
2. What kind of effect do you think this might have on my Paladin's Code?
A few thoughts:
- Never willingly or knowingly work against the best interests of the nation
- Obey and uphold the laws, except where doing so would violate #1
- Support the rightful King, except where doing so would violate #1
- Never knowingly associate with enemies of the state or those actively working to bring about the downfall of the nation.
3. Are there any feats or abilities that you can think of that are exceptionally patriotic?
Not off the top of my head.
4. How much would it cost me to get a magic item that would create a ghost sound and minor image so I can get the "Flag and Anthem" effect?
Assuming you want this effect to be command-word activated, you're looking at +3150gp. If you go once per day only, it's +630gp. Remember, you need to have at least a +1 shield (100pgp + cost of a masterwork shield) for this to work.
5. Is this likely to annoy everyone else at the gaming table?
No more than playing any other paladin. If your group doesn't typically enjoy having a pally on board, this concept isn't going to change that.
Nothing wrong with playing staight paladin through level 20 with this, but possible prestige classes that can fit the concept: Cavalier, Hospitaler, Purple Dragon Knight, Knight Protector.
In any case, if your country has a king or queen, start referring to that individual in the way a cleric of paladin normally would. Don't neccesarily deify them (although that's a possibility, ala Queen Elizabeth), but swear oaths in their name, cite their authority when smiting and make a brief speech about their magnamity when assisting others. Consistently refer to yourself as a "Servant of his/her majesty." You can even refer to the ruler with the nation's name, to stress that the oneness of country and king.
This reminds me a bit of the Redcrosse Knight in Edmund Spenser's "The Faerie Queene", who represents not only Christianity but also the country of England.
In any case, if your country has a king or queen, start referring to that individual in the way a cleric of paladin normally would. Don't neccesarily deify them (although that's a possibility, ala Queen Elizabeth), but swear oaths in their name, cite their authority when smiting and make a brief speech about their magnamity when assisting others. Consistently refer to yourself as a "Servant of his/her majesty." You can even refer to the ruler with the nation's name, to stress that the oneness of country and king.
Actually, just about every citizen in a feudal society would be expected to do that. This paladin is the sort who would in fact work to overthrow the rightful king if that king should ever begin to act in a manner detrimental to the Nation. He (the paladin) would swear solemn oaths by the name of the nation, citing its name when smiting, etc. He - like Cap - is the paragon servant of his chosen nation, and like Cap (in the recent "Civil War" storyline") he will take the stand of outsider, radical, and malcontent if his Nation begins to move in a direction contrary to its founding beliefs.
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.......I'd allow it.
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.......I'd allow it.
ah, Steven Colbert, Paladin. He'd love it!
I got the idea for this the other day when I was inspired by the vision of a knight in armor giving a speech against a background of patriotic music and a waving flag.
Soon, I'm going to be entering a 3.5 game, and I had the idea of making a paladin devoted to a country instead of a deity or a "cause." Not that I actually expect to get divine power by worshipping the Constitution, or anything like that, but I wondered if there was a good way to make it work without making my pally really obnoxious (At least not more so than most paladins). Therefore, I've got some questions:
1. What kind of gimmicks can my paladin use to convey what he is?
2. What kind of effect do you think this might have on my Paladin's Code?
3. Are there any feats or abilities that you can think of that are exceptionally patriotic?
4. How much would it cost me to get a magic item that would create a ghost sound and minor image so I can get the "Flag and Anthem" effect?
5. Is this likely to annoy everyone else at the gaming table?
1) The CoC States proudly you can worship your god or your Nation/Cause.
Thus There is no impact its the same Paladin, A DM Might think like you did however. But with normal CoC of the paladin there is no impact thus perfectly legal.
Look up in the DMG About createing magic items.
Charge? Permenant? 1/day?
Spell Level, Like From what caster is casting Minor Image and Ghost sound.
PG 284 DMG,
Lets say level 0 mixed with a level 2 spell thats Permanent.
Continuous is going to make it alot of gold but
First determin the 0 level spell then add in the price of a 2nd level spell (Lowest caster level = 1 and 3)
0 Level spells cost half that of a 1st level spell.
This is like the Cure Minor Wounds Potato,
Yes add in cost of the item you have it on as well.
Potato was free
Minor cure is 0 Level so half of a 1st level spell
So
1x1x2000 / 2 = 1000GP
For something with a 0 level spell (Thats measured in 1 round thus rounds)
It gets x4 The cost
So 4000GP, Yes there wassome arguement on this but there was a few post/treads proveing you could do this.
Grants you now have a Hot potato of healing.
Nice picture. Where'd you get it? And can I use that for my character portrait?
Look up the Colbert WoW card on google images. I'm not sure where exactly it originated, unfortunately.
As far as skills, I would suggest History. Intimidate and Diplomacy might also work. Perhaps your nation is very religious and your character admires that, although that character may not be a paladin for a god. In that case, Religion might be a good skill. Perhaps your nation values hard work, then you can make a case for Endurance.
For feats,I think anything that gives a bonus to Will to represent your nationalistic fervor. Other choices again depend on what your character sees as the values of his nation. I think you could reflavor the Channel Divinity feats. For example Harmony of Erathis can be reflavored such that the bonus comes from inspiring your comrades calling upon your nations history. If your nation has a history of fighting larger sized foes, such as giants, Moradin's Resolve could be reflavored. Ioun's Poise for its bonus to Will. If your nation is known for a particular skill, Skill Focus or Skill Training. Is your nation known for a particular weapon? It doesn't need a mechanical difference, but calling it a Minesh Longsword or a Goldath Spear and taking a Weapon Focus in that particular weapon group. Is your nation known for its cavalry (such as the Mongol Empire)? Take Mounted Combat. If your nation is a crossroads of culture, perhaps Linguist might be a good choice.
For abilities, I think reflavoring them using Nationalistic and Patriotic terms to replace Divine and Holy terms would go a long way. Again, call upon the nation and its history to make choices in powers. Perhaps there's some story like 300 in your nation's history where a small group of your country men stood against a much larger force: Valiant Strike would be a good choice. Is your nation know for protecting the weak? Pick Shielding Smite and Martyr's Blessing. Is your nation known for its natural environment - for example the number of storms it endures? Thunder Smite would go with that.
Now you could approach these choices from two different directions: pick powers and then construct a nation's history and values to represent that. Or describe a nation and then try to work the powers into that description. In any event, I think its necessary to connect the specifics of your particular country to the different skills, feats and abilities. Some things can work regardless: focusing on History, Endurance, Will or anything that can translate into nationalistic fervor and patriotic passion that guide your actions.
EDIT: Whoops. Missed the 3.5 part.
Actually, just about every citizen in a feudal society would be expected to do that.
But do they?
1) Detect Evil on any foreigner the first time you meet them.
2) Instead of summoning a Mount from the Upper Planes, summon a Mount from your country's premier stables. Don't know how that'll work, but say a Wizard did it.
3) Spend skill points in skills that help you know your country better (Knowledge Nobility & History).
4) Ask your DM if it's okay to be able to rebuke sentient undead that were former citizens of your country.
5) Hesitate to Smite Evil on any citizen unless they prove to be traitorous, even if they're committing small crimes.
6) Ask the DM if the group can become freelance mercenaries hired by the kingdom (similar to Blackwater in Iraq).
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.......I'd allow it.
Soon as I get home, THIS IS BECOMING MY DESKTOP!
My Aura of Courage can stay where it is.
"Patriotic Grace" will replace "Divine grace" with the same effect.
"Smite (Country)'s Enemy" will replace "Smite Evil." Essentially, I can use my smite attacks on anyone who is a threat to my home country, either because my government said as much or because it became obvious after I talked with them a bit. People who want to destroy/conquer the world count as enemies of my country.
"Turn Traitor" will replace "Turn Undead." I can use my turning abilities on any citizen or denizen of my home country, regardless of creature type, provided that they have demonstrated anti-government or anti-national tendencies. Yes, it will work on hippies. It will also apply to enemies of my home country who happen to be IN my home country for whatever reason (spies, invaders, etc.). So it's a power that will mainly only be useful on my home soil.
"Summon Mount" works like it always does, only it summons an intelligent horse from the King's Stable, somehow.
"Cure Disease" and "Lay on hands" work as normal. My spells also work normally, but I have to say the pledge of allegiance instead of praying.
Anyone see any problems so far?
"Cure Disease" and "Lay on hands" work as normal. My spells also work normally, but I have to say the pledge of allegiance instead of praying.
Maybe instead of always saying a pledge of allegiance, you could call upon the history and heros of your nation to use particular abilities. Using a real world example, you could call upon a figure like Florence Nightingale for your healing. Call upon famous warriors and generals to grant attack/damage bonuses. Use the story of an explorer to grant endurance against elements. A wise leader inspires the Owl's Wisdom. Maybe Protection from Chaos/Evil could be Protection from Traitors. I think you need to work out with the DM exactly what it means to be a traitor so that you'll both know when your powers are applicable.
Maybe instead of always saying a pledge of allegiance, you could call upon the history and heros of your nation to use particular abilities.
That seems like it would take more work than I'm willing to put into this, but I'll keep that in mind.
Hmmm... now I feel a sudden desire to create a paladin spell called "McArthy's Trial." What would that do?
Hmmm... now I feel a sudden desire to create a paladin spell called "McArthy's Trial." What would that do?
Maybe it would allow you to consider that person a traitor for all future abilities/spells that target traitors. Maybe give them a minus to saving throws.
Maybe it would allow you to consider that person a traitor for all future abilities/spells that target traitors. Maybe give them a minus to saving throws.
Not bad. I'll make it into a 4th-level paladin spell... and Traitors count as My Country's Enemies, too, so that'll be a bonus...
Also, you can give up on getting spells from historical figures. Seriously. PEACH-wise, this has to be one of the most absurd and, literally, dumbest ideas I've seen. Calling upon Florence Nightingale for healing?
How is your country going to grant you divine powers? Spells? Lay on Hands? A celestial mount? None of that works. What you're looking at is a Knight. No magic or anything like that. Turn Traitor? Traitors aren't their own type, subtype, whatever. Traitor is a very loose term to throw around as well, and couldn't be used reliably in game.
In short, this is absurd. Play a Knight or a Marshall. It's the same thing, just minus the absurdity.
Would characters ever say prayers to saints of a particular deity? Why - saints can't grant spells? But in the name of the Holy Mother, Florence Nightingale or Eresh Kitari, your wounds will close and you will stand stronger than before.
Your critique of a "Traitor" category is important. I addressed that earlier. The OP and his group need to clearly define what counts as a Traitor or an Enemy of his Country. Why can't they houserule new types? If they define it, it can be used reliably.
I approached this thread as a creative exercise. The OP sets the original bounds: paladin character that worships their country as their deity. Start with that premise and add suggest how to put it into action. Don't reject the initial premise. Build upon it.
I'd say it is extraordinarily rare for a nation to actually embody the virtues of a Paladin, but this is supposed to be a game of epic fantasy. Maybe there really is a land where "Liberty and Justice for All" is more than just advertising.
That said, Captain America is definitely the place to go for a role model. Sometimes America didn't live up to Cap's expectations, but he fought on behalf of what it could be, and tried to inspire others to make the 'real' nation more like its patriotic image. (Be sure your patriot is not just living in an easily-burst bubble of denial. When he encounters corruption or misbehavior, he should grieve, but accept cleaning it up as part of his duty - rather than shouting, "I don't believe in anything anymore!" and running off to join a grunge band.)
(Be sure your patriot is not just living in an easily-burst bubble of denial. When he encounters corruption or misbehavior, he should grieve, but accept cleaning it up as part of his duty - rather than shouting, "I don't believe in anything anymore!" and running off to join a grunge band.)
And then you have an Anti-Paladin of Grunge. And nobody wants that. The Bard levels would be murder...
And then you have an Anti-Paladin of Grunge. And nobody wants that. The Bard levels would be murder...
Dude... That'd be the most hilarious random encounter ever.
Dude... That'd be the most hilarious random encounter ever.
No, actually, characters who've gone over to the Grunge Side of the Force aren't really very good NPC encounters. You'd think a guy who keeps yelling, "I've lost everything I care about!" wouldn't react so violently when you say, "OK, can I have all your magic items then?"
No, actually, characters who've gone over to the Grunge Side of the Force aren't really very good NPC encounters.
Maybe so, but it's still fun to point/laugh at them, call them emo, and butcher them.
On topic, are there any more comments or suggestions on how to build a Paladin of Patriotism?
