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Pet Dragon?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
SereneChaos
May 30, 2013 10:02:44 So, a few months into my first DnD campaign, my friends and I have faced a Dragon, which we befriended. We then went to run an errand for this dragon which basically involved stomping a rival Kobold group led by a Goblin.

When we get there, we find out they're trying to raise an undead dragon from a pile of Red Dragon bones. We interrupt the ritual by killing the Shaman, but the dragon (dubbed Dracolich) just barely manages to manifest.

My character is a heavily hacked-up Tom Bombadil, who uses songs and names as sources of power. I'm (IRL) notoriously taken with my own cleverness and grandiose ideas. Befriending the first dragon was initiated by me, as well as some enchanting if random scales for myself and my friends.

I try to include the group when my ideas get especially outlandish, but all of us are starting to get a rep with the DM and his wife of always trying to play above our power level (started at lvl1, currently lvl2).

This was exacerbated when I used a true name ability on the Dracolich and got complete, permanent dominance (explained by the DM as a combo of a very good roll, the fact that the drgon was rezzed specifically to be dominated, and the fact that the ritual was unfinished, so the dragon wasn't in top form). The DM said that Dracolich has about an hour before the ritual falls apart, but that if we can come up with something he would be very open and interested to explore it.

Cue a slew of ideas from my group being thrown at me, before I settled on "Hey, I'll try to give the dragon it's own new name and a spark of life". I'll post more details if anybody wants them, but basically it involves asking the other characters for knowledge on various skills to get assist bonuses, then running a gamut of skill checks and describing the process/expected outcome to the DM as I go.

When I went to the DM to ask about it, I got (from cursory questions, before explaining) a resounding "No, you CANNOT ressurect a Dragon at level 2". After explaining, he said that my plan wasn't exactly what he expected, it might work, and he was ambivalent but very interested. He did, however seem slightly exasperated with me.

A later convo with his wife (the group Rogue) went nearly identically. She was iffy about our group's disregard for level limitations, and didn't want us to have a pet undead dragon at level 2. After explaining my process, she seemed more ok with it (though not completely convinced).

My group, however, is nearly as hyped as I am and won't stop asking me questions and offering more suggestions.

*Quick aside, this dragon is a half-rezzed mockup. It's relatively weak, and part of my idea was to bring it back younger and weaker, both for power concerns and flavorful "rebirth" stuff)*

So, sorry for the wall o' text setup; Here are my questions:

1) Is a pet dragon at level 2, even a young, weakish one, fair?
2) Do you think the DM was annoyed (if he was, and it wasn't just me) because of our trying to do broken things, because of my semi-limelight-stealing, or just because I kept bugging him about this?
3) If this isn't fair, and shouldn't be done, should we just drop it and pretend it never came up, or should we try to handle it flavorfully so as not to let down the rest of the group?
#2
SereneChaos
May 30, 2013 10:04:24 Sorry, forgot one:

4) Should our playgroup try to reign itself in from now on, or is it a case of "as long as everyone is having fun, the game is a success"?
#3
iserith
May 30, 2013 10:14:40 1. Depends on the edition. In 4e, you could just make it an appropriately-leveled companion character, up all future encounters as if the party was +1 PC and you're good to go.

2. If he was annoyed, it was likely because you did something that negated something he had planned or prepared.

3. That's a discussion between you and your group. "Fair" is whatever you all decide it is.

4. I don't really know why anyone would want to rein in clever ideas and freedom of choice.
#4
Centauri
May 30, 2013 11:46:26 There's no in-game reason why you can't or shouldn't have a pet dragon or anything else at level 2, as long as it's accounted for and the DM is still able to provide the group with enjoyable challenges. If a DM is resistant to the idea, it could be that they are not sure how to provide those enjoyable challenges. What springs to my mind is that encounters that could challenge the dragon might be killer for the PCs, and ones that would challenge the PCs would be trivial for the dragon. There's also the fact that a dragon can provide limitless breath attacks and flight, which can easily negate vast swaths of common challenges. Pit? Fly over it. Lava? Fly over it. Lost in the woods? Fly over them or burn them down. Falsely accused of a crime and imprisoned? Burn down the wall, bite through the shackles, fly away. Is that fair? Well, the game allows the characters do it, so why not?

Any situation I might list could be easily handled by a DM, but we field lots of questions from DMs on "What's a DM To Do?" about whether or not it's "fair" to clamp down on something the players are doing. I would fully expect your DM to start asking us whether or not it's fair for the dragon to get sick, or get out of control, or be hunted by poachers specifically armed to neutralize it, or cause the party to be barred from cities. Would that be fair? Well, the game allows the DM to do it, so why not?

As iserith says, fair is whatever your group agrees it is. If I were a player in this situation, I would try to understand the DM's concerns (probably via direct, honest conversation) and work with him to find plausible reasons why the characters would not abuse their options. If I were the DM, I'd be open to player ideas.

Look at Avatar: the Last Airbender. The kids have a flying bison, Appa. He's big, tough, strong, agile, and intimidating. He gets them out of a lot of tough situations, but he's not a magic bullet. The writers clearly apply some effort in finding reasons why Appa isn't around, can't help, or actually makes a given situation worse. There's no question of fairness, because they're just characters, but the question is about what would be interesting to watch. Would it be interesting for the kids to use Appa to drop boulders and sharpened tree trunks on every threat they encounter? Nothing prevents this tactic, and given time he could probably develop pretty good aim. I maintain that using Appa in this fashion, though perfectly logical, would make for a boring show to watch.

My point is that you and your DM can take pointers from this show, from the aforementioned ways the writers keep Appa from becoming the "I Win" button for the show. If the DM says "I want to run this kind of an adventure, but your dragon would let you get around it easily," the players should say "Ok, but it won't, and here's why." Heck, sometimes the PCs might just conveniently forget about it (see also: Superman and heat vision, or Gandalf and the Eagles), but other times there may be a very interesting story about why the dragon is not available or would be more of a hindrance.

Another thing TV shows are good at are having some great advantage show up and then have to leave so that the show remains about the main characters. If you want the dragon to leave, use something along those lines. He can always make another appearance later.

Don't try to reign yourselves in, but do have a conversation with the DM about expectations and preferences. Raise the possibility of the players helping to come up with ideas that disadvantage them, rather than the DM having restrict himself only to what he can guess the characters will find "fair."
#5
SereneChaos
May 30, 2013 17:27:25 Thanks for the feedback, I think my DM said pretty much the same thing but I was too excited to catch his meaning. He said that he really liked my plan but was concerned about keeping up with us in terms of challenging encounters. Maybe he was just voicing a little caution, I think he's more than clever enough to come up with suitable storylines and fights.

I'm superexcited about getting a per dragon =D I'm hoping to give it iridescent rainbow scales...
#6
Centauri
May 30, 2013 17:38:50
I think he's more than clever enough to come up with suitable storylines and fights.

He probably is, but that doesn't mean it's nice of you to foist off a lot of extra work on him. Work with him. If you do something he's having trouble dealing with, suggest a mitigation that puts some challenge back in. Many DMs aren't sure how to balance player ideas in a fair way, but if you suggest a balance then it's automatically fair. If you're going to have the dragon fly you over a chasm and the DM seems disheartened, suggest that a huge flock of crows flies out and starts harrassing the dragon, scaring it off. That's something a DM wouldn't want to suggest for a lot of reasons, so it falls to the players to suggest it.

#7
SereneChaos
May 30, 2013 18:02:39 I try to do as much of that as I can. For instance, with the dragon, I asked the DM if I could make the dragon younger (and thus weaker), and give it free will and intelligence so that it wouldn't just be a puppet minion.
#8
merb101
May 31, 2013 7:36:06 Like Iserith said, 4E is really easy for adding pets or extra characters to a group. If not as a companion character, your character could take a feat or theme to give him a pet. There may be a pseudo-dragon familiar that could provide you with stats (though familiars are much different creatures than pets or companions. Most familiars are purposefully not combat worthy).

I am going to be running a 4E game for some kids, and pets/companions will be the focus. Kinda like D&D Pokemon. My 7yo son has already named his blink dog Remy after our real life puppy.
#9
Centauri
May 31, 2013 12:50:07
I try to do as much of that as I can. For instance, with the dragon, I asked the DM if I could make the dragon younger (and thus weaker), and give it free will and intelligence so that it wouldn't just be a puppet minion.

That's good, but along with free will it should have some motivations that you're ok with the DM exploiting. Maybe it seeks a mate or a lair or its own hoard. Otherwise, there's no reason why it won't always do what your party wants, and if the DM has it do something other than help the party it looks like the DM is just being petty.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SereneChaos May 30, 2013 10:02:44	So, a few months into my first DnD campaign, my friends and I have faced a Dragon, which we befriended. We then went to run an errand for this dragon which basically involved stomping a rival Kobold group led by a Goblin. When we get there, we find out they're trying to raise an undead dragon from a pile of Red Dragon bones. We interrupt the ritual by killing the Shaman, but the dragon (dubbed Dracolich) just barely manages to manifest. My character is a heavily hacked-up Tom Bombadil, who uses songs and names as sources of power. I'm (IRL) notoriously taken with my own cleverness and grandiose ideas. Befriending the first dragon was initiated by me, as well as some enchanting if random scales for myself and my friends. I try to include the group when my ideas get especially outlandish, but all of us are starting to get a rep with the DM and his wife of always trying to play above our power level (started at lvl1, currently lvl2). This was exacerbated when I used a true name ability on the Dracolich and got complete, permanent dominance (explained by the DM as a combo of a very good roll, the fact that the drgon was rezzed specifically to be dominated, and the fact that the ritual was unfinished, so the dragon wasn't in top form). The DM said that Dracolich has about an hour before the ritual falls apart, but that if we can come up with something he would be very open and interested to explore it. Cue a slew of ideas from my group being thrown at me, before I settled on "Hey, I'll try to give the dragon it's own new name and a spark of life". I'll post more details if anybody wants them, but basically it involves asking the other characters for knowledge on various skills to get assist bonuses, then running a gamut of skill checks and describing the process/expected outcome to the DM as I go. When I went to the DM to ask about it, I got (from cursory questions, before explaining) a resounding "No, you CANNOT ressurect a Dragon at level 2". After explaining, he said that my plan wasn't exactly what he expected, it might work, and he was ambivalent but very interested. He did, however seem slightly exasperated with me. A later convo with his wife (the group Rogue) went nearly identically. She was iffy about our group's disregard for level limitations, and didn't want us to have a pet undead dragon at level 2. After explaining my process, she seemed more ok with it (though not completely convinced). My group, however, is nearly as hyped as I am and won't stop asking me questions and offering more suggestions. Quick aside, this dragon is a half-rezzed mockup. It's relatively weak, and part of my idea was to bring it back younger and weaker, both for power concerns and flavorful "rebirth" stuff) So, sorry for the wall o' text setup; Here are my questions: 1) Is a pet dragon at level 2, even a young, weakish one, fair? 2) Do you think the DM was annoyed (if he was, and it wasn't just me) because of our trying to do broken things, because of my semi-limelight-stealing, or just because I kept bugging him about this? 3) If this isn't fair, and shouldn't be done, should we just drop it and pretend it never came up, or should we try to handle it flavorfully so as not to let down the rest of the group?
#2 SereneChaos May 30, 2013 10:04:24	Sorry, forgot one: 4) Should our playgroup try to reign itself in from now on, or is it a case of "as long as everyone is having fun, the game is a success"?
#3 iserith May 30, 2013 10:14:40	1. Depends on the edition. In 4e, you could just make it an appropriately-leveled companion character, up all future encounters as if the party was +1 PC and you're good to go. 2. If he was annoyed, it was likely because you did something that negated something he had planned or prepared. 3. That's a discussion between you and your group. "Fair" is whatever you all decide it is. 4. I don't really know why anyone would want to rein in clever ideas and freedom of choice.
#4 Centauri May 30, 2013 11:46:26	There's no in-game reason why you can't or shouldn't have a pet dragon or anything else at level 2, as long as it's accounted for and the DM is still able to provide the group with enjoyable challenges. If a DM is resistant to the idea, it could be that they are not sure how to provide those enjoyable challenges. What springs to my mind is that encounters that could challenge the dragon might be killer for the PCs, and ones that would challenge the PCs would be trivial for the dragon. There's also the fact that a dragon can provide limitless breath attacks and flight, which can easily negate vast swaths of common challenges. Pit? Fly over it. Lava? Fly over it. Lost in the woods? Fly over them or burn them down. Falsely accused of a crime and imprisoned? Burn down the wall, bite through the shackles, fly away. Is that fair? Well, the game allows the characters do it, so why not? Any situation I might list could be easily handled by a DM, but we field lots of questions from DMs on "What's a DM To Do?" about whether or not it's "fair" to clamp down on something the players are doing. I would fully expect your DM to start asking us whether or not it's fair for the dragon to get sick, or get out of control, or be hunted by poachers specifically armed to neutralize it, or cause the party to be barred from cities. Would that be fair? Well, the game allows the DM to do it, so why not? As iserith says, fair is whatever your group agrees it is. If I were a player in this situation, I would try to understand the DM's concerns (probably via direct, honest conversation) and work with him to find plausible reasons why the characters would not abuse their options. If I were the DM, I'd be open to player ideas. Look at Avatar: the Last Airbender. The kids have a flying bison, Appa. He's big, tough, strong, agile, and intimidating. He gets them out of a lot of tough situations, but he's not a magic bullet. The writers clearly apply some effort in finding reasons why Appa isn't around, can't help, or actually makes a given situation worse. There's no question of fairness, because they're just characters, but the question is about what would be interesting to watch. Would it be interesting for the kids to use Appa to drop boulders and sharpened tree trunks on every threat they encounter? Nothing prevents this tactic, and given time he could probably develop pretty good aim. I maintain that using Appa in this fashion, though perfectly logical, would make for a boring show to watch. My point is that you and your DM can take pointers from this show, from the aforementioned ways the writers keep Appa from becoming the "I Win" button for the show. If the DM says "I want to run this kind of an adventure, but your dragon would let you get around it easily," the players should say "Ok, but it won't, and here's why." Heck, sometimes the PCs might just conveniently forget about it (see also: Superman and heat vision, or Gandalf and the Eagles), but other times there may be a very interesting story about why the dragon is not available or would be more of a hindrance. Another thing TV shows are good at are having some great advantage show up and then have to leave so that the show remains about the main characters. If you want the dragon to leave, use something along those lines. He can always make another appearance later. Don't try to reign yourselves in, but do have a conversation with the DM about expectations and preferences. Raise the possibility of the players helping to come up with ideas that disadvantage them, rather than the DM having restrict himself only to what he can guess the characters will find "fair."
#5 SereneChaos May 30, 2013 17:27:25	Thanks for the feedback, I think my DM said pretty much the same thing but I was too excited to catch his meaning. He said that he really liked my plan but was concerned about keeping up with us in terms of challenging encounters. Maybe he was just voicing a little caution, I think he's more than clever enough to come up with suitable storylines and fights. I'm superexcited about getting a per dragon =D I'm hoping to give it iridescent rainbow scales...
#6 Centauri May 30, 2013 17:38:50	I think he's more than clever enough to come up with suitable storylines and fights. He probably is, but that doesn't mean it's nice of you to foist off a lot of extra work on him. Work with him. If you do something he's having trouble dealing with, suggest a mitigation that puts some challenge back in. Many DMs aren't sure how to balance player ideas in a fair way, but if you suggest a balance then it's automatically fair. If you're going to have the dragon fly you over a chasm and the DM seems disheartened, suggest that a huge flock of crows flies out and starts harrassing the dragon, scaring it off. That's something a DM wouldn't want to suggest for a lot of reasons, so it falls to the players to suggest it.
#7 SereneChaos May 30, 2013 18:02:39	I try to do as much of that as I can. For instance, with the dragon, I asked the DM if I could make the dragon younger (and thus weaker), and give it free will and intelligence so that it wouldn't just be a puppet minion.
#8 merb101 May 31, 2013 7:36:06	Like Iserith said, 4E is really easy for adding pets or extra characters to a group. If not as a companion character, your character could take a feat or theme to give him a pet. There may be a pseudo-dragon familiar that could provide you with stats (though familiars are much different creatures than pets or companions. Most familiars are purposefully not combat worthy). I am going to be running a 4E game for some kids, and pets/companions will be the focus. Kinda like D&D Pokemon. My 7yo son has already named his blink dog Remy after our real life puppy.
#9 Centauri May 31, 2013 12:50:07	I try to do as much of that as I can. For instance, with the dragon, I asked the DM if I could make the dragon younger (and thus weaker), and give it free will and intelligence so that it wouldn't just be a puppet minion. That's good, but along with free will it should have some motivations that you're ok with the DM exploiting. Maybe it seeks a mate or a lair or its own hoard. Otherwise, there's no reason why it won't always do what your party wants, and if the DM has it do something other than help the party it looks like the DM is just being petty.