Phantom Template - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Phantom Template

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rhynod
Jun 30, 2009 14:34:33 So I'm building an epic sorcerer/warlock blah etc. I'd like to try out the Phantom template from MM5 pg 130), mostly because it's nifty (also mechanically solid, I think).

The problem is that there's no LA for it. It's CR +1 if the base is CR 4-, or +2 if the base CR is 5+, but the LA given is "--". I get that's it's not really made for PCs, but I'd like to give it a shot and my character qualifies for it so I'd like to resolve the LA problem, either by making up an appropriate LA or deciding that it doesn't need LA (HA!), etc.

The basics are as follows: There's "lesser" (if the base CR is 4-) and "greater" (base CR is 5+).
Both get Cha bonus as deflection bonus to AC.
Greater gets all of its normal (corporeal) AC bonuses to AC whether it's corporeal or not against corporeal or incorporeal attackers.

Both get vulerability to ghost touch (+50% damage from ghost touch weapons, spells, etc.).

Lesser gains the ability to become incorporeal when willingly moving.

Greater gains the ability to become incorporeal as a swift action and corporeal as a swift or standard action. It cannot use any action or attack that requires prolonged contact such as grappling or swallow whole (presumably only while incorporeal, but it doesn't specify). However, a greater phantom also has the special attack/quality that whenever it uses an attack (melee, ranged, spell, special attack, whatever) that only require a short duration to deal damage, it's considered both corporeal and incorporeal for the purposes of dealing damage when it's incorporeal.

That's pretty much it. CR +1/CR +2, no LA, can be applied to any corporeal creature, nothing else changes unless the base creature is an animal or vermin (which my character is not) in which case the type changes to magical beast.
#2
slobo777a
Jun 30, 2009 16:00:26 CR modifiers are usually much lower than LA modifiers when the power is a major one. The PCs are considered resourceful enough to solve a "phantom creature" with spells or abilities. Most encounters in the other direction simply do not have the resources.

The game designers are giving a strong hint that you should not use this on a PC. The ability to be insubstantial at will is a huge benefit. Even 9th level spells do not grant equivilent powers for more than caster-level rounds. You are talking about making the ability an integral part of the character, and being able to circumvent nearly all physical traps and encounters that have not specifically allowed for an insubstantial character. Which is 90% or more of them.

If I absolutely had no choice in a game, I would put the LA at something very high (+10 or higher). The character would be almost invulnerable, but not a huge threat to the creatures it is likely to encounter.

I suggest that you ask your DM to come up with an alternative template with a similar feel but far less unbalancing effects on the game.
#3
rhynod
Jun 30, 2009 16:20:12 Whoa, +10!? That's a little ridiculous. Spells might not last very long, but there are a lot of magical items, armor properties, and the like that will get you the same thing. With a good amount of gold and the right items, maybe a feat or two and you can do just about everything Phantom does. Then again, I'm already epic, and one epic spell can just about make me a lesser phantom. And there are already a damn lot of ways to get around mechanical traps, not least of which is the first-level wizard alternate class ability that allows you to teleport 10 ft. Not to mention a Ninja's ability to go incorporeal, a shadow dancer's ability to teleport through shadows, nearly any teleportation spell, boots of swift passage, ethereal armor, etc. etc.

I agree that this template would have a decently high LA, but +10? That's a bit much for no stat bumps and vulnerability to ghost touch. It's strong. It's not that strong.
#4
slobo777a
Jun 30, 2009 16:51:10
Whoa, +10!? That's a little ridiculous. Spells might not last very long, but there are a lot of magical items, armor properties, and the like that will get you the same thing. With a good amount of gold and the right items, maybe a feat or two and you can do just about everything Phantom does. Then again, I'm already epic, and one epic spell can just about make me a lesser phantom. And there are already a damn lot of ways to get around mechanical traps, not least of which is the first-level wizard alternate class ability that allows you to teleport 10 ft. Not to mention a Ninja's ability to go incorporeal, a shadow dancer's ability to teleport through shadows, nearly any teleportation spell, boots of swift passage, ethereal armor, etc. etc.

I agree that this template would have a decently high LA, but +10? That's a bit much for no stat bumps and vulnerability to ghost touch. It's strong. It's not that strong.

All of your alternate examples have limited uses, and many do not protect the character whilst engaging in direct combat.

If you can show me a combination of magic items, feats and class abilities that give you:

* Insubstantial at will
* Whilst still using all equipment and attacks as normal
* For 24/7 if desired
* With increased AC (what is your character's Cha bonus?)

. . . then you have solved your own problem :D

Vulnerability to Ghost Touch means very little. Almost no encounters will include force effects or ghost touch effects, because PCs and regular classes have these, not monsters.

I'd encourage you to work this out with your DM.

A solo campaign, or one with almost zero combat and trap encounters could still work it, I guess.

If I were DM, as you'd guess I'd just say "no".
#5
slobo777a
Jul 01, 2009 0:57:39 For reference the D20 SRD on abilities of "Incorporeal" creatures:

Incorporeal Subtype

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rhynod Jun 30, 2009 14:34:33	So I'm building an epic sorcerer/warlock blah etc. I'd like to try out the Phantom template from MM5 pg 130), mostly because it's nifty (also mechanically solid, I think). The problem is that there's no LA for it. It's CR +1 if the base is CR 4-, or +2 if the base CR is 5+, but the LA given is "--". I get that's it's not really made for PCs, but I'd like to give it a shot and my character qualifies for it so I'd like to resolve the LA problem, either by making up an appropriate LA or deciding that it doesn't need LA (HA!), etc. The basics are as follows: There's "lesser" (if the base CR is 4-) and "greater" (base CR is 5+). Both get Cha bonus as deflection bonus to AC. Greater gets all of its normal (corporeal) AC bonuses to AC whether it's corporeal or not against corporeal or incorporeal attackers. Both get vulerability to ghost touch (+50% damage from ghost touch weapons, spells, etc.). Lesser gains the ability to become incorporeal when willingly moving. Greater gains the ability to become incorporeal as a swift action and corporeal as a swift or standard action. It cannot use any action or attack that requires prolonged contact such as grappling or swallow whole (presumably only while incorporeal, but it doesn't specify). However, a greater phantom also has the special attack/quality that whenever it uses an attack (melee, ranged, spell, special attack, whatever) that only require a short duration to deal damage, it's considered both corporeal and incorporeal for the purposes of dealing damage when it's incorporeal. That's pretty much it. CR +1/CR +2, no LA, can be applied to any corporeal creature, nothing else changes unless the base creature is an animal or vermin (which my character is not) in which case the type changes to magical beast.
#2 slobo777a Jun 30, 2009 16:00:26	CR modifiers are usually much lower than LA modifiers when the power is a major one. The PCs are considered resourceful enough to solve a "phantom creature" with spells or abilities. Most encounters in the other direction simply do not have the resources. The game designers are giving a strong hint that you should not use this on a PC. The ability to be insubstantial at will is a huge benefit. Even 9th level spells do not grant equivilent powers for more than caster-level rounds. You are talking about making the ability an integral part of the character, and being able to circumvent nearly all physical traps and encounters that have not specifically allowed for an insubstantial character. Which is 90% or more of them. If I absolutely had no choice in a game, I would put the LA at something very high (+10 or higher). The character would be almost invulnerable, but not a huge threat to the creatures it is likely to encounter. I suggest that you ask your DM to come up with an alternative template with a similar feel but far less unbalancing effects on the game.
#3 rhynod Jun 30, 2009 16:20:12	Whoa, +10!? That's a little ridiculous. Spells might not last very long, but there are a lot of magical items, armor properties, and the like that will get you the same thing. With a good amount of gold and the right items, maybe a feat or two and you can do just about everything Phantom does. Then again, I'm already epic, and one epic spell can just about make me a lesser phantom. And there are already a damn lot of ways to get around mechanical traps, not least of which is the first-level wizard alternate class ability that allows you to teleport 10 ft. Not to mention a Ninja's ability to go incorporeal, a shadow dancer's ability to teleport through shadows, nearly any teleportation spell, boots of swift passage, ethereal armor, etc. etc. I agree that this template would have a decently high LA, but +10? That's a bit much for no stat bumps and vulnerability to ghost touch. It's strong. It's not that strong.
#4 slobo777a Jun 30, 2009 16:51:10	Whoa, +10!? That's a little ridiculous. Spells might not last very long, but there are a lot of magical items, armor properties, and the like that will get you the same thing. With a good amount of gold and the right items, maybe a feat or two and you can do just about everything Phantom does. Then again, I'm already epic, and one epic spell can just about make me a lesser phantom. And there are already a damn lot of ways to get around mechanical traps, not least of which is the first-level wizard alternate class ability that allows you to teleport 10 ft. Not to mention a Ninja's ability to go incorporeal, a shadow dancer's ability to teleport through shadows, nearly any teleportation spell, boots of swift passage, ethereal armor, etc. etc. I agree that this template would have a decently high LA, but +10? That's a bit much for no stat bumps and vulnerability to ghost touch. It's strong. It's not that strong. All of your alternate examples have limited uses, and many do not protect the character whilst engaging in direct combat. If you can show me a combination of magic items, feats and class abilities that give you: * Insubstantial at will * Whilst still using all equipment and attacks as normal * For 24/7 if desired * With increased AC (what is your character's Cha bonus?) . . . then you have solved your own problem :D Vulnerability to Ghost Touch means very little. Almost no encounters will include force effects or ghost touch effects, because PCs and regular classes have these, not monsters. I'd encourage you to work this out with your DM. A solo campaign, or one with almost zero combat and trap encounters could still work it, I guess. If I were DM, as you'd guess I'd just say "no".
#5 slobo777a Jul 01, 2009 0:57:39	For reference the D20 SRD on abilities of "Incorporeal" creatures: Incorporeal Subtype An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.