My Human Rogue (Lvl 1) has the following stats (4D6, subtract the worst):
The fun thing about rogues is there's just so much you can do with 'em. The class offers synergies with nearly every other class if you spend just a few moments thinking about it.
Zherog put together a list of multiclass options a few weeks back. Let me see if I can find it.
Just because you have TWF doesn't mean you have to use it. Generally, feats granting +2 to skill X (and y and/or z) aren't worth the feat slot except in very focused circumstances. (Wizards, ferinstace, are generally safe with Skill Focus (Concentration).)
The fun thing about rogues is there's just so much you can do with 'em. The class offers synergies with nearly every other class if you spend just a few moments thinking about it.
Zherog put together a list of multiclass options a few weeks back. Let me see if I can find it.
Ok, that would be super. I have found a lot of various builds, but they all tend to become superduper at level 20 with less focus on the low levels I mean "Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2" can be combined in ..well.. many different combinations ;)
It is true that I don't have to use two weapons, that kind of blocked me from seeing the other possibilities there are. Thanks. Then again, it does suck to not use the +4 dex bonus I get from Weapon Finesse, I think. Oh well...
The Cosmopolitan feat gave me not +2 in 2 skills, but actually +2 in 3 skills. That's better but maybe not good enough to warrant the pick...
Maybe I should have read up on the rules before I created the character. ;)
Then again, I try to use his non-combat skills as well, as it fits the character theme pretty well.
I'm sorry if I seem vague. I'm really not sure where I am going with this little guy. ;)
If you use the same weapon in the left and right hand, feats like weapon focus pay off double. If you focus on daggers, you can even choose to throw them. Prestige classes like invisible blade and master thrower could be interesting (both from Complete Warrior, if I'm not mistaken).
The main problem of a TWF rogue is the possible lack of feats, especially if you're heading towards a prestige class. The easy fix is two levels of fighter.
Anyways, I was planning a TWF rogue, and this was the rough build I had in mind. I still have to fill in the details though: I figured my current group had better use for a cleric, so I filled the gap before I could create this rogue.
I'm aware of the bonuses granted by Cosmopolitan (Sense Motive is the other skill, by the way). I stand by my earlier statement, however: with a few specific exceptions, feats which grant a flat bonus to skill checks (or saving throws for that matter) are generally not worth it. It seems like a good idea, but feats are precious.
The trick here is to spend some time on your character's concept, the who stuff. The what comes after, and is much easier to select if you have a idea for the character's general direction for the next few levels.
You say he's a swashbuckler (NOTE: this does not necessarily mean he actually has Swashbuckler class levels). Great! What does that look like in your mind? Is he Errol Flynn, quick with a sword and almost too pretty to hit? Is he more like Darth Maul: dark and deadly, and using acrobatics to distract and confound? Once you know this, picking classes, feats, and special class features becomes easier.
Ferinstance:
Kehvrynne Quickblade is a hot-tempered scoundrel. She's pretty (CHA 14), smart (OK, she's VERY smart - INT 16), and athletic (STR 15, DEX 19), but a touch on the brash side (WIS 11). Her temper often gets the better of her (Aggressive trait, Quick Draw feat). She's also in it for the money, and tends to be a bit mercenary in her outlook (she is, after all, Chaotic Neutral). She's a consummate rogue (the lack of ranks in Hide was a major oversight on my part
) and unless the game takes an interesting turn, she'll stay Rogue from levels 1 to 20 and beyond. I've an NPC from an old campaign who's also a rogue, but with a much different focus. She's a charlatan: mostly Rogue levels with maxed UMD, high CHA, and a ton of social skills, with a smattering of true magical ability tossed in for when the going gets rough. This is one concept which benefits from a feat granting a flat skill bonus. Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) was a must for her. Scrolls and wands have to work every time. At Level 1 she had a +10 bonus to UMD checks.
Found it.
Excellent. Thanks!
I stand by my earlier statement, however: with a few specific exceptions, feats which grant a flat bonus to skill checks (or saving throws for that matter) are generally not worth it. It seems like a good idea, but feats are precious.
So I've started to notice.
You say he's a swashbuckler (NOTE: this does not necessarily mean he actually has Swashbuckler class levels). Great! What does that look like in your mind? Is he Errol Flynn, quick with a sword and almost too pretty to hit?
The character background is that he grew up in Waterdeep (Cosmopolitan is a regional feat), as part of a theater family. Basically his upbringing has been centered around the stage, so he knows all about what fighting looks like on stage. He "knows all" about undeads too, from plays about dashing Vampires and fainting maidens and heroic young men saving the maidens, etc. His recent run in with a real life zombie and a skeleton left him pretty shaken. ;)
But he is more confident than competent when it comes to combat, so the TWF-style Full Attack option is what he thinks he's supposed to be doing in a fight, because that's what heroes do, right?
He would feel more at home with a huuuge greatsword, because heroes are supposed to have huuuge swords, right? But, well, he's only just getting the hang of his Rapier. ;)
In time I would like him to develop a more intelligent adventuring style, and try to incorporate his theatrical skills (for instance Bluff, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, etc) into his repertoire, but these first levels will act as a rude awakening call for him, to mold him into a more competent adventurer.
He adventures to experience adventure, not for the money, but for the stories he envisions himself being able to write about himself, so I keep a log of what we are doing, key events, etc, that can serve him when he gets back to civilisation where he can go on stage and tell the "True" story of what really happened there in the Dungeon. (Somehow, I believe that his "running away" incident will be tuned down in the final telling
)The others in the party whine that the party Rogue sucks at finding traps and picking locks... Well, let them whine, I'm no cowardly picker of locks, I am Thespianus - Le Magnifique! ;)
(yeah, I created this account with the same name as the character. Silly, maybe, but as good as any)
Get a fedora with a feather in it, and take leadership. All of your followers should have max ranks in profession: courtisan.
Ohhh.. That is splendid. He would like that! :D
Also a suggestion very much in line with the name of the thread. I salute you. ;)
Combat Expertise will help you to keep from getting hit when you can afford to drop a few numbers off your to-hit roll.
Improved Feint, along with your good Cha bonus and the +2 from Cosmopolitan will let you Bluff in combat as a move action, letting you get a sneak attack on the same turn. It may seem a bit counter-intuitive for a TWFer, but you'll find a lot of situations where you won't be able to set up your SA any other way, and being able to definitely get in one SA per round may be tactically more advantageous than hoping to get in several non-SA shots at the correspondingly lower attack bonuses. Particularly since a rapier's only 1d6 damage, the SA damage you'll build up is just as good as extra hits that wouldn't qualify for SA.
This would of course, require you to keep your Bluff skill maxed.
On a different note, once you get your Tumble skill up to 12 ranks, you can also pay 2 skill points for the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick from Complete Scoundrel...
Once per encounter, if you suceed in tumbling through their space, they're flat-footed against your next attack in the same round. So that gives you an additional way to set up your SA while doing something you'd be doing anyway in order to set up a flanking situation.
Other skill tricks you might be interested are Group Fakeout (to Bluff multiple opponents at once) and Timely Misdirection (anyone you feint against can't make attacks of opportunity aganst you), both of which require you to have 8 ranks in Bluff...
I've also been toying with the idea of Quick Draw and the Hidden Blade skill trick from CS, maybe that would go well with CE->IF as above. Hmm.. Food for thought, indeed.
Thank you!
I LOVE the idea of having a fencing Eroll Flynn-character throwing dazzling magic effects around him to aid in combat.
Standard rogues can do this with Use Magic Device.
You might also want to look at Beguiler in the PH2 or just wizard/arcane trickster. But don't plan on hitting anything in melee if you multiclass this way.
I'm thinking a Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10-type of build. Might not be insanely effective, but gosh-darnit it'll be fun to play! :D
Also fits right in with my characters theatrical background.. Now, all I hope is that the slow paced campaign will eventually get to those levels. We've just reached lvl 2.
Combat Expertise would benefit you greatly as it opens up worlds of opportunity for you i.e. Flick of the Wrist from Complete Warrior: Catch your opponent flat-footed for one round as you draw your weapon or Karmic Strike which allows you to attack your opponent as they are attacking you at a -4 AC penalty to yourself (...)
From what I can gather, Flick of the Wrist requires Quick Draw, not Combat Expertise? But, yes, Karmic Strike seems like a way to increase the amount of attacks I can make, but..Damn.. -4 to AC? Sounds like a lot, at least for a low level character? Once I collect more protective gear, it can be real useful, but at low levels it seems like a mild suicide. ;)
Flick of the Wrist seems to be a feat variant of the Complete Scoundrel Skill Trick "Hidden Blade", but with more useability (which can be expected, as a feat is "better" than a skill trick. )
Flick of the Wrist sounds like a lot of fun, indeed. Thanks!
Sounds crazy good for a TWF-build, say an Invicible Blade, all it takes is Str 15 (and I have 14) so... well, hmm.. I'll think about this too...
Too many options!
I dunno, Skewer Foe sounds kinda hokey. Personally, I would take Quick Draw and Flick of the Wrist. Think of the possibilities being able to sneak attack an opponent that just turned his/her back on you in one fluid motion.
Yeah, I did some thinking and Skewer Foe doesn't really pay off. Maybe if I played a Monk with Flurry of Blows and Greater TWF and a piercing Monk weapon, then it might be ok, but for a Rogue, it doesn't seem worth it.
PieOfBandits: Yes, Weapon Finesse is a given for this kind of build, hence the Swashbuckler-level.
yeah, kinda figured that one out after i posted, ahh well.....
personaly i'd go with a fighter rogue myself (havent really gotten into the new classes from phb 2 and the like, only good one i found is the scout). if you go rogue, fighhter, fighter you'll get way more hit points and two extra feats at 3rd level for a total of 5 at 3rd level.....
Weapon finesse, improved init, two weapon defence or expertise(expertise if your gunna ggo for the disarm your foe type swashbuckler)
love those featses (does that mean i have a feat fetish???) and your original skills from 1st level rogue should be keeping you afloat in the skill department until, thats right, rogue at 4th level. If your really gunna go with the swashbuckler idea i think you should work towards the Duelist prestige class.
love those featses (does that mean i have a feat fetish???) and your original skills from 1st level rogue should be keeping you afloat in the skill department until, thats right, rogue at 4th level. If your really gunna go with the swashbuckler idea i think you should work towards the Duelist prestige class.
I've been reading some threads and decided to go with something like this for the first few levels:
If you're going to be using thrown weapons for your ranged attacks, consider using throwing axes. They're about the best thing you can throw that you can also melee with if you need to - 1d6+2 damage including your Str bonus is gonna give you the same damage whether you're meleeing with your rapier or attacking from range with axes... They'll work really well with both quickdraw and TWF, better than your shortsword as an offhand weapon since you can throw them and just quickdraw another.
Well, that's good, solid advise. Thanks.
It's a bit out-of-character, though. ;) He's a theatrical fop, axes are crude and dwarvish.;)
He already has a problem with dwarves, since they ruin all theatrical performances: With dark vision, they spot all the things that are normally hidden by darkness on stage, and they are not (like elves) cultivated enough to keep their mouths shut about what they see ;)
Weapon finesse, improved init, two weapon defence or expertise(expertise if your gunna ggo for the disarm your foe type swashbuckler)
On a side note: Is disarming good? I just read up on the rules (I'm fairly new to 3.X and haven't understood the more intricate options of combat yet), and they seem to favor an "attacker" with a two handed weapon, which doesn't really mesh with the traditional "swashbuckler-rapier"-type of guy. Also, it does seem very risky, even with the Improved Disarm-feat?
Do people frequently use Disarm in combat? I realize that if it succeeds it is fairly powerful, but the road to success seems perilous and strewn with lots of lost hitpoints... ;)
Disarming is generally not worth your while, especially as a guy using a one-handed weapon and who doesn't have full BAB.
Two-Weapon Defense is crap. Don't take that @#$!. Same for Combat Expertise.
Thrown weapons are a bad idea.
Why? I would like to know
I do have a Str of 14, I get a +2 to damage with thrown weapons, and I can do sneak attack damage with them on the first round of combat if I win the initiative. The only thing I see against them is that their range is severely limited and that I can carry around a quite limited supply of them, but in a dungeon crawl, or indoors, a bow might be way tricky to handle...But please let me know what's bad with them, I am all ears.
Disarming is generally not worth your while, especially as a guy using a one-handed weapon and who doesn't have full BAB.
That's pretty much what I figured as well... Thanks for reinforcing my conclusions.
Two-Weapon Defense is crap. Don't take that @#$!. Same for Combat Expertise.
TWD seems like a waste of a feat. In retrospect, I should have taken the Twin Sword Style background feat from Players Guide to Faerun, which is +2 to AC when using two weapons, instead of the skill feat Cosmopolitan. But I'll live.
I'm now thinking that I will adopt a style of disguise and bewilderment. My character is a theater-bred 16 year old out of Waterdeep. In the current adventure, we're wandering through a dungeon willed with goblins and hobgoblins.
My latest idea is that I will adopt to the environment, pick up skill in Speak Language(goblin), use my good disguise and bluff skill to lure the remaining goblins and hobgoblins into traps.
Basically, I'll wear one of the hobgoblin guard's outfit, walk ahead of the party and try to warn small groups of goblins and hobgoblins that there's a party of invading humans on the way and get them to rush to the attack. Or, tell them that I've managed to capture a human and need help to carry the loot, or something.
With some luck, I'll be able to sneak attack them like crazy when they run to attack, and with the crazed Barbarian flanking them, it will be a slayfest!
Maybe it will turn sour, but at least it'll be a different type of adventure
I'm going for a Swashbucklery Rogue style, not necessarily using the Swashbuckler class, with a sprinkle of magic thrown in for fun.
I want to have lots of skills and SA, so I grab plenty of Rogue levels. I TWF with Rapier and Kukri, perhaps Kukri/Kukri later on.Stats are: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 15. (Human)
The two first levels are already picked and can't be changed:
1st Rogue Feats: Cosmopolitan, TWF.
2nd Rogue Feats: Evasion
Now, for my third level, I am looking at going Wizard. It will hurt my BAB, but it will give me nice spells that work well for flanking (Summon Monster I, Persistent Blade, etc)
3rd Wizard(Conjurer),
swap Familiar for Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt)
swap Scribe Scroll and bonus feats for Fighter-feats at 1st, 5th level
Feats: Weapon Finesse (fighter feat) and Practiced Spellcaster(to get duration for summon spells)
This will get me summoned monsters and persistent blade flanking bonus for 3 rounds.
4th level: Fighter
Armored Mage-variant (swap med and hvy armor for no ASF% in light armor)
Feat: Improved Initiative, caster level 4
5th level: Rogue SA 2D6, caster level 5, BAB 3
6th level: Rogue Feat: Uncanny Dodge, Telling Blow. BAB 4
7th level: Rogue SA 3D6, BAB 4
8th level: Rogue , BAB 5
9th level: Fighter, Feats: Imp TWF, Combat Casting, BAB 6/1
10th level: Rogue, SA 4D6, BAB 7/2
11th-15th level: Abjurant Champion, BAB 8/3 -> 12/7/2
16th-19th level: Arcane Trickster, SA 6D6
20th level: Wizard, level 6 spells, caster level 19, BAB 15/10/5
This is based on the assuption that Practiced Spellcaster and Martial Arcanist from Abjurant Champion stack. They ought to, if I read the feat and class feature correctly....
I know this doesn't reach the magical BAB 16, and I know it only gives me 6th level spells, but I can't for the life of me find a better way to add spellcasting to a TWF Rogue build that keeps me in decent BAB and ok Caster-skills, while maintaining the Rogue-skill feel.
I might be focusing too heavily on spells, but I want to be able to do a little bit of both, and I don't want to go too crazy with the multiclassing as Ninja-levels doesn't really fit with the character theme. Also, I looked into the Swashbuckler-3-progression to get Int to damage, but heck, I get too feat starved then, and I either miss out on TWF-feats or on Combat Casting.
Also, the Armored Mage-variant of the Fighter class fits great in this class, and there is no equivalent in the Swashbuckler class.
Ok, long rant, I'm sorry. Any comments at all are welcome. So, please comment