Player ECL issues - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Player ECL issues

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
fluffywalrus
May 10, 2010 13:54:55 I didn't exactly know where to post this, but I figured this would be the right area.

Just recently, myself and a group of others started a new 3.5e campaign with these houserules applied.

We've been playing campaigns together, for the most part at least(two just recently joined in last campaign), for about 4 or 5 years. I know pretty much what kind of player everyone is and things are beginning to crack at the seams for me.

The current DM of the campaign handpicked those houserules and made minor changes to them, which is no issue aside from getting used to how my character will work(I'm playing a Wizard for the first time in years so it was going to be a learning curve anyway). The main issue is that one of the players in the campaign is a rogue. And a Naztharune Rakshasa. I don't think the 11 or whatever HD translated over...I think he was just given base HD, but even still that kind of ECL is pretty hefty, considering most of the other characters aren't of high ECL (most are 0, one is a Nymph, but she's new to the game and is just learning).

I've brought up my issues over ECL to this DM in the past during his other campaigns, and while he listens to me., it's rather clear he sees no issue with the balance. My secondary concern over the ECLs is that he doesn't often level characters correctly, so players with ECLs tend to level up at the same rate non ECL characters do.
My primary issue over the ECL of the Rakshasa is that we're all level 1 while he's effectively level...6 I think? And the current story arc has his character assassinating Priests and Cardinals at our Cleric's cathedral...and we have to capture him, since he's been found out.

I mean, none of us can do damage to him due to the DR he has. None can pass his SR or affect him with any spells, and he can read our minds with us having no possible save against it. He can alter self at will and since we're all humanoid we can't tell him from anyone else at any given time. There's nothing, as a hastily formed search group who realistically barely know each other(and thus, would not be coordinated well to utilize each other's strengths), we could possibly do to catch him. Nothing. A level 1 monk, cleric, wizard and druid against a level 1 ECL 6 Naztharune Rakshasa.

The campaign has already begun and my DM is not the type to force a change of race on a player, nor would I really want that to happen. He's quite fine with how he runs ECLs at the moment, so it's pretty futile to argue about that end.
Do I try to petition that every character but the Rakshasa gets leveled up at LEAST to level 6, in attempt to even the stack? Because even with us at level 6, it'll be very difficult to catch him still.

I've been playing D&D for a decade and I've been playing with this group for half of it. THe player who's chosen the Rakshasa has chosen a regular ECL7 Rakshasa before(heck, he was one in the prior campaign), but those were power campaigns and we were quickly to level 14, so the difference was minimal after the first few games. In other campaigns he's been somewhat powerful ECL characters, but always kept a decent reign on them, and I can't honestly blame him for wanting the Naztharune Rakshasa because those things are pretty awesome, and if he was allowed to be a Rakshasa in the past it would be odd to say no this time.

Maybe it's because as a player, I prefer base races, I prefer playing flawed characters and when I'm DM I'm often pushing low-magic, base race campaigns, so I have a natural bias against such manners to do with ECLs. I just am lost at what to do. I'm just frustrated at the lack of balance. My last campaign, I had to powergame in order to keep up with the ECL characters and it was frustrating that I had to ditch a lot of my RPing in order to keep my character relevant. I don't want to have to do that again after spending good time crafting the persona of a new character.

Any advice on what I should do? Anyone been in a similar boat in the past?
#2
kouk
May 10, 2010 14:23:57 I don't really want to comb through those house rules but they seem to try to make classes equal. So that's not really the problem.

One PC is playing a character ECL 6+ while you're level 1, then that is obviously unbalanced. You see it right there. Level 1 vs. Level 6. ECL for a level 1 normal race is 1. For a level 1 campaign, you simply cannot use a character of ECL over 1 (you might have class levels like from Savage Species, but ECL is 1).

I think if you can't possibly communicate to the DM OR the Player that it is a huge power difference, and they somehow do not notice or care, it's time to talk about someone else taking over as DM.

EDIT: This isn't an issue of your "tastes" vs. the DM's, this is a blatantly obvious problem, and to not stop it in the first place, or want to correct it after seeing it is clearly causing problems, would be a sign of an extremely lazy or bizarre DM.

I assume the other players also would prefer to stop screwing around with giving one player high level characters in comparison.
#3
Macarius
May 10, 2010 16:39:38 The previous editions forum is here: community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/7588...

You're in the wrong forum. Theses are the 4e forums.
#4
salla
May 10, 2010 16:44:33
The previous editions forum is here: community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/7588...

You're in the wrong forum. Theses are the 4e forums.

This section of the forums is edition-neutral.

That said, the OP would probably get better results there.
#5
Cohen95
May 10, 2010 20:38:08
If the DM genuinely doesn't care about ECL, take advantage of this and demonstrate the problem in a more egregious manner. Granted, that's not nice, but it will get your point across. Have your level 1 character die, and make a new one with a high ECL (+5 or more), and see what the DM says. If he disapproves, point out the obvious power scale with the other high ECL character, and see what the DM says about that.

Obviously, this conversation should not take place immediately before or during game, but either well-beforehand, or on a different day.

If the DM ends up only being cool with this one player having a high ECL character, ask why. Make sure that he understands that you don't mind being limited, but you're curious what this other player has done to earn (presumably) the level of trust needed to play such an overpowered character.

If all else fails, it may just be time for a new DM, or a new group.
#6
mccowen
May 11, 2010 12:01:19 "Find a new game" is seldom helpful advice, but I honestly think it may be warranted in this case. Your post is full of risk factors for a horrible gaming experience:
The game is heavily houseruled. (Note to house-rulers: I'm not saying all house rules are bad, but it's nigh impossible to anticipate the unintended consequences of 4,000 words' worth of homebrewed rules text.)

The DM gets ECL horribly wrong. Granting high SR and DR to a 1st level PC is completely and obviously inappropriate.

The DM "doesn't level correctly". (To be fair, it's hard to grant appropriate XP when you get ECL wrong.)

The DM runs a plot which explicitly places PCs in opposition to one another.

The DM is not open to argument, at least by your testimony.

Furthermore, it's not your job to figure out how to deal with an obvious balance issue. Your job is (at the most) to say "hey, this doesn't smell right"; the DM is the one who has to figure out how to undo the problem he's introduced.

With all that in mind, in your position I just present my concerns to the DM. Do it away from the table, and if possible away from the session--e-mail might even be a good idea. Then, give yourself an internal deadline for him to deal with these issues in some way. The solution doesn't have to be perfect, but if play for (say) another two sessions with no resolution at all, you're within your rights to say "Sorry, guys, but I don't think this campaign is for me."
#7
manic_man
May 12, 2010 10:46:22
The previous editions forum is here: community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/7588...

You're in the wrong forum. Theses are the 4e forums.

This is a general question based more on group dynamics, not rules. Please note this is forum does NOT cater solely to 4e.
#8
manic_man
May 12, 2010 10:52:06
I didn't exactly know where to post this, but I figured this would be the right area.
*snip*
Any advice on what I should do? Anyone been in a similar boat in the past?

There are several methods
i) get killed and come back as a paragon human/elf/whatever. As a template it works with any race and its quite horribly powered comapred to leve 1s. The template is in the epic level handbook. If thats a problem, there are still plenty of crazy templates to use

ii) Let it go. Since the other character keeps control of his character, leave it until a real problem crops up.

iii) Hide behind the ecl fella. Do it enough times, it becmes obvious the power difference.

Recommend i) most times
#9
secretaryseven
May 20, 2010 7:32:57 Those house rules are just nuts. I flipped through them, and it's easy to say that whoever wrote those out really has only an elementary grasp of the rules set.

Nonetheless, I'd buy a +1 holy rapier. Of course, you're level one, so good luck being able to do that. I don't know what to say.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fluffywalrus May 10, 2010 13:54:55	I didn't exactly know where to post this, but I figured this would be the right area. Just recently, myself and a group of others started a new 3.5e campaign with these houserules applied. We've been playing campaigns together, for the most part at least(two just recently joined in last campaign), for about 4 or 5 years. I know pretty much what kind of player everyone is and things are beginning to crack at the seams for me. The current DM of the campaign handpicked those houserules and made minor changes to them, which is no issue aside from getting used to how my character will work(I'm playing a Wizard for the first time in years so it was going to be a learning curve anyway). The main issue is that one of the players in the campaign is a rogue. And a Naztharune Rakshasa. I don't think the 11 or whatever HD translated over...I think he was just given base HD, but even still that kind of ECL is pretty hefty, considering most of the other characters aren't of high ECL (most are 0, one is a Nymph, but she's new to the game and is just learning). I've brought up my issues over ECL to this DM in the past during his other campaigns, and while he listens to me., it's rather clear he sees no issue with the balance. My secondary concern over the ECLs is that he doesn't often level characters correctly, so players with ECLs tend to level up at the same rate non ECL characters do. My primary issue over the ECL of the Rakshasa is that we're all level 1 while he's effectively level...6 I think? And the current story arc has his character assassinating Priests and Cardinals at our Cleric's cathedral...and we have to capture him, since he's been found out. I mean, none of us can do damage to him due to the DR he has. None can pass his SR or affect him with any spells, and he can read our minds with us having no possible save against it. He can alter self at will and since we're all humanoid we can't tell him from anyone else at any given time. There's nothing, as a hastily formed search group who realistically barely know each other(and thus, would not be coordinated well to utilize each other's strengths), we could possibly do to catch him. Nothing. A level 1 monk, cleric, wizard and druid against a level 1 ECL 6 Naztharune Rakshasa. The campaign has already begun and my DM is not the type to force a change of race on a player, nor would I really want that to happen. He's quite fine with how he runs ECLs at the moment, so it's pretty futile to argue about that end. Do I try to petition that every character but the Rakshasa gets leveled up at LEAST to level 6, in attempt to even the stack? Because even with us at level 6, it'll be very difficult to catch him still. I've been playing D&D for a decade and I've been playing with this group for half of it. THe player who's chosen the Rakshasa has chosen a regular ECL7 Rakshasa before(heck, he was one in the prior campaign), but those were power campaigns and we were quickly to level 14, so the difference was minimal after the first few games. In other campaigns he's been somewhat powerful ECL characters, but always kept a decent reign on them, and I can't honestly blame him for wanting the Naztharune Rakshasa because those things are pretty awesome, and if he was allowed to be a Rakshasa in the past it would be odd to say no this time. Maybe it's because as a player, I prefer base races, I prefer playing flawed characters and when I'm DM I'm often pushing low-magic, base race campaigns, so I have a natural bias against such manners to do with ECLs. I just am lost at what to do. I'm just frustrated at the lack of balance. My last campaign, I had to powergame in order to keep up with the ECL characters and it was frustrating that I had to ditch a lot of my RPing in order to keep my character relevant. I don't want to have to do that again after spending good time crafting the persona of a new character. Any advice on what I should do? Anyone been in a similar boat in the past?
#2 kouk May 10, 2010 14:23:57	I don't really want to comb through those house rules but they seem to try to make classes equal. So that's not really the problem. One PC is playing a character ECL 6+ while you're level 1, then that is obviously unbalanced. You see it right there. Level 1 vs. Level 6. ECL for a level 1 normal race is 1. For a level 1 campaign, you simply cannot use a character of ECL over 1 (you might have class levels like from Savage Species, but ECL is 1). I think if you can't possibly communicate to the DM OR the Player that it is a huge power difference, and they somehow do not notice or care, it's time to talk about someone else taking over as DM. EDIT: This isn't an issue of your "tastes" vs. the DM's, this is a blatantly obvious problem, and to not stop it in the first place, or want to correct it after seeing it is clearly causing problems, would be a sign of an extremely lazy or bizarre DM. I assume the other players also would prefer to stop screwing around with giving one player high level characters in comparison.
#3 Macarius May 10, 2010 16:39:38	The previous editions forum is here: community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/7588... You're in the wrong forum. Theses are the 4e forums.
#4 salla May 10, 2010 16:44:33	The previous editions forum is here: community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/7588... You're in the wrong forum. Theses are the 4e forums. This section of the forums is edition-neutral. That said, the OP would probably get better results there.
#5 Cohen95 May 10, 2010 20:38:08	If the DM genuinely doesn't care about ECL, take advantage of this and demonstrate the problem in a more egregious manner. Granted, that's not nice, but it will get your point across. Have your level 1 character die, and make a new one with a high ECL (+5 or more), and see what the DM says. If he disapproves, point out the obvious power scale with the other high ECL character, and see what the DM says about that. Obviously, this conversation should not take place immediately before or during game, but either well-beforehand, or on a different day. If the DM ends up only being cool with this one player having a high ECL character, ask why. Make sure that he understands that you don't mind being limited, but you're curious what this other player has done to earn (presumably) the level of trust needed to play such an overpowered character. If all else fails, it may just be time for a new DM, or a new group.
#6 mccowen May 11, 2010 12:01:19	"Find a new game" is seldom helpful advice, but I honestly think it may be warranted in this case. Your post is full of risk factors for a horrible gaming experience: The game is heavily houseruled. (Note to house-rulers: I'm not saying all house rules are bad, but it's nigh impossible to anticipate the unintended consequences of 4,000 words' worth of homebrewed rules text.) The DM gets ECL horribly wrong. Granting high SR and DR to a 1st level PC is completely and obviously inappropriate. The DM "doesn't level correctly". (To be fair, it's hard to grant appropriate XP when you get ECL wrong.) The DM runs a plot which explicitly places PCs in opposition to one another. The DM is not open to argument, at least by your testimony. Furthermore, it's not your job to figure out how to deal with an obvious balance issue. Your job is (at the most) to say "hey, this doesn't smell right"; the DM is the one who has to figure out how to undo the problem he's introduced. With all that in mind, in your position I just present my concerns to the DM. Do it away from the table, and if possible away from the session--e-mail might even be a good idea. Then, give yourself an internal deadline for him to deal with these issues in some way. The solution doesn't have to be perfect, but if play for (say) another two sessions with no resolution at all, you're within your rights to say "Sorry, guys, but I don't think this campaign is for me."
#7 manic_man May 12, 2010 10:46:22	The previous editions forum is here: community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/7588... You're in the wrong forum. Theses are the 4e forums. This is a general question based more on group dynamics, not rules. Please note this is forum does NOT cater solely to 4e.
#8 manic_man May 12, 2010 10:52:06	I didn't exactly know where to post this, but I figured this would be the right area. snip Any advice on what I should do? Anyone been in a similar boat in the past? There are several methods i) get killed and come back as a paragon human/elf/whatever. As a template it works with any race and its quite horribly powered comapred to leve 1s. The template is in the epic level handbook. If thats a problem, there are still plenty of crazy templates to use ii) Let it go. Since the other character keeps control of his character, leave it until a real problem crops up. iii) Hide behind the ecl fella. Do it enough times, it becmes obvious the power difference. Recommend i) most times
#9 secretaryseven May 20, 2010 7:32:57	Those house rules are just nuts. I flipped through them, and it's easy to say that whoever wrote those out really has only an elementary grasp of the rules set. Nonetheless, I'd buy a +1 holy rapier. Of course, you're level one, so good luck being able to do that. I don't know what to say.