Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 anchovy_pizza Jun 24, 2010 15:39:14	Hi. I play with someone whose PC tends to skulk in the back of the party during encounters and doesn't do much. I'd like to encourage this player, and the PC, to get out more, take some risks, and do something. Cast a spell, give out some healing, something! (I could go on, but I don't want to turn this into a petty rant--or a longer petty rant, at any rate.) The challenge here is that I don't know the player very well, so I'd prefer to do this in character, and I have to be somewhat nice about it (although an escalating scale of intolerance may be appropriate). Any advice?
#2 gruph Jun 24, 2010 16:09:29	Well considering that you don't really know him or her I would assume that they are shy and uncomfortable.  Though this seems odd because usually shy people do things in combat and are reserved when it comes to non combat and RP and stuff. As for advice I would say you should talk to the player, and or someone who knows him or her really well and figure out their interests then tailor an encounter specifically focusing on those (though not so focused as to alienate the other PC's).  Also, and this is obvious so I feel lame bringing it up but, you should consult the DM guide one; as I seem to remember something in there about a player type that is in the background.  Other than that you could drop him in a pit of acid or something like that and see how he reacts :P.
#3 Acedonte Jun 24, 2010 18:11:22	Does his/her character perhaps have some RP reason for avoiding combat? I could see a Wizard with a background in academics being less-than-thrilled about being in combat, or a Bard who is a musician or poet and is just along for the stories wanting to avoid direct conflict. Also, Ranger, Rogues or Assassins may want to sit on the edge of the field, waiting for their moment to strike. Perhaps this player is doing something along these lines?
#4 kouk Jun 24, 2010 20:38:02	What is it you think the PC is capable of doing, that the player is not doing? Is the player doing anything else that precludes doing what you want?
#5 anchovy_pizza Jun 25, 2010 8:36:28	Thanks. Just to clarify, I'm a player, and this is a fellow player. I'm not DM-ing with this player. The player could attack more, get up front with the party and mix it up with the baddies. The player may be holding back for fear of dying in combat. The player also may be holding back for fear of actually having to make a decision. This also seems to apply to noncombat encounters. I'm not sure this is RP-ing, or if it is, I haven't gotten a strong sense from the roleplaying that this character is a coward, a wimp, or what have you. Generally, I and another participant feel that the player is not contributing to the party's success by hanging out in the back of the party and staying safe, simply to earn XP from the rest of the party's actions and not die in the process. I've thought about having my PC harangue this player during combat. Or prod the other PC with a weapon, literally. The PC's behavior may be in character, or tactical, but it doesn't help. It certainly doesn't strike me as "Heroic Tier."
#6 Mad_Jack Jun 25, 2010 10:05:45	What class is he? And is he a melee or ranged character?
#7 anchovy_pizza Jun 25, 2010 13:27:30	Wizard. Ranged. However, I've seen some kick-ass wizards and warlocks do stuff from all over the board. This is more about knowing the capabilities of your character and doing something for the good of the party. It's a team, not 4 PCs and a parasite.
#8 kouk Jun 25, 2010 13:38:47	Does he literally do nothing at all but stand around in Total Defense?
#9 diggles Jun 25, 2010 14:13:15	Wizard. Ranged. However, I've seen some kick-ass wizards and warlocks do stuff from all over the board. This is more about knowing the capabilities of your character and doing something for the good of the party. It's a team, not 4 PCs and a parasite. A wizard has no reason to be on the front lines save for some dramatic thunderwaving people off cliffs and what not.  If monsters arent paying attention to him while hes in the back, hes doing fine. If any of the characters in the party are leaders, they should try to inspire him with a battle cry or commands. 'Do you wanna live forever?' 'By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Warvang, you shall be avenged!' 'Now you will witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational [insert class]' 'Cry havoc and let slip the [insert Wizard name] of war!'
#10 Bandikoot Jun 25, 2010 14:43:30	Having played a 4E wizard, I can tell you it should be standing back as far as it can.  In fact, my party went so far as to take pains to make sure that no creatures got past them and attacked my 4hp/level/cloth character.  If you want the wizard to be flanking with the rogue, you should consider adding a 2E fighter/mage to the party.  Otherwise, don't expect them to be in melee.
#11 anchovy_pizza Jun 25, 2010 14:50:03	Diggles, thanks for offering some in-game ideas that are helpful. That is what I was looking for. No, Kouk, it isn't that extreme, but it feels that way sometimes. It may be that the build isn't optimized, or the spell choices are wimpy, or the player's dice always miss. Somehow, it never feels like the PC has done much from start to finish of the encounter. I guess this is isn't a common problem then, that has come up for many parties before? I thought it might be, and trigger, "Oh, I know how to handle THAT guy/gal!" Well, thanks for letting me vent, at any rate.
#12 ingestiblebulk Jun 25, 2010 14:51:31	by "he could be attacking more" do you mean that he is delaying turns, or just giving up his turns, or what?  walk us through a normal turn for him, so we can know what exactly he's doing wrong.
#13 ingestiblebulk Jun 25, 2010 14:56:13	and don't worry, EVERY problem has come up for parties before.  have a guy who just sits in a corner jerking it the whole game?  someone's probably had to deal with that before.  DM is secretly a suicide cultist?  happened to me just last week.  in my experience (with life in general), no problem is unique.  and even if it is, i'm sure there's a way to fix it.  and this army of supernerds we call the wizards community is pretty good at solving problems.
#14 anchovy_pizza Jun 25, 2010 14:56:17	Ingestiblebulk, that's fair, but I don't have an answer, only because I haven't played with this person in awhile (thankfully, but nevertheless...). When it's fresh in my memory, I'll have a better idea and can follow up. Then, we can debate whether the player's approach is valid tactically or not. Again, I thought this would be a more common problem. I guess it isn't--which is a good thing, in my view.
#15 nikitadarkstar Jun 25, 2010 15:26:54	have you, you know, just tried asking him OOC (and perhaps away from the game) why he isn't doing all that much in combat? Perhaps he doesn't understand his class well enough to know what to do, so chooses to do nothing? Or he jsut doesn't find combat that entertaining? Or he thinks the rest of you are doing well enough for him to not use up his spells? (You know saving them for when you're not doing good and need them that much more.) If it's any of that it's an OOC problem, help him. If the answer is "This is how my character would act." it's an IC problem, try handling it IC, if done right it could(/should) lead to some interesting character development.
#16 inarai Jun 25, 2010 17:05:18	It's also entirely possible that he could be doing plenty, and you haven't really noticed.  Your desire to have him up in melee (And the examples you offered of what he should be doing) suggests you may not understand what the character is supposed to to, and more importantly, the contributions of controllers and leaders can be difficult to quantify. With a couple of odd exceptions, Wizards are ranged characters.  Charging into melee would be a bad idea for him.  And wizards are not healers.  Though, again, what's he tend to do in a turn? You seem to have this expectation that all characters need to be in melee.  This is wrong.  There's the front line, and the back line.  Wizards are decidedly backline, like any other controller.  So are most leaders.  You don't go front line when all your attacks are ranged.
#17 lysiander Jun 25, 2010 17:44:01	DM is secretly a suicide cultist?  happened to me just last week. Wait what? I'd love to hear the backstory on that remark. Provided it was serious of course.
#18 kouk Jun 25, 2010 18:05:24	As a general point, if you are a Wizard and choose all direct damage spells, you will be nearly useless to the party. But the book doesn't tell you that, it makes it seem like "striker" Wizard is viable, which it decidedly is not in any way. Status effects are the mainstay of Wizard powers, with about one power that only does direct damage but that also affects an area. Usually Scorching Burst or Thunderwave work fine. Otherwise, it's all about the Sustained Dailies, and the Status Effects. Damage is merely "extra" to a Wizard Power. The sustained dailies can actually pump out a fair amount of damage, but that's over several rounds. Flaming Sphere is pretty much the best level 1 Daily for Wizards (discounting Sleep, which I think has the potential to be really powerful, but is really really boring for everyone if it doesn't work, but even more if it does work). EDIT: If the powers pretty much all do have status effects, then maybe he's just missing horribly and frequently. There could be an issue about targeting the right defense for the job, maybe he has all Fort attacks or something and you've been fighting Soldiers and Brutes (where Reflex and Will attacks would be more accurate). But diversity is tough at low levels.
#19 diggles Jun 26, 2010 1:39:08	Diggles, thanks for offering some in-game ideas that are helpful. That is what I was looking for. No, Kouk, it isn't that extreme, but it feels that way sometimes. It may be that the build isn't optimized, or the spell choices are wimpy, or the player's dice always miss. Somehow, it never feels like the PC has done much from start to finish of the encounter. I guess this is isn't a common problem then, that has come up for many parties before? I thought it might be, and trigger, "Oh, I know how to handle THAT guy/gal!" Well, thanks for letting me vent, at any rate. Something that can help low rollers or non optimized players is attacking the correct NAD with their abilities. Most all creatures but magic users/leaders will have Will as their lowest defense Soldiers/Brutes have poor reflex, high fort. Skirmishers/Lurkers/Artillery will have good reflex, poor fort Help make sure the Wizard has a good mix of spells so he can use something against all creature types. I find Will & Fort are the best for wizards. Will hits any non controller/leader mob and fort takes care of them and fast movers. My wiz packs Nightmare eruption(will), thunderwave(fort) & ChillingCloud(fort) at-wills.
#20 shard_of_suzail Jun 27, 2010 15:44:12	Some players tend to take a spectator role, where they enjoy being part of a group and giving support here and there, but not actively taking a role. From my experience, you cant change this sort of player and, while they seem "not to be enjoying the game", they actually are. Some players are simply quieter than others and its best not to try and change them.
#21 chaosturtle Jun 30, 2010 18:36:53	I'd bring it up Icly, have your character take an interest in the wizardly arts...maybe he was impressed with the last spellcaster the party battled, or just curious about what the other person can actually do etc.  From there, just try to devise some tactics for the next battle...aka give him advice, get him to think about his powers more.  He might just be cursed with some poor rolls, or maybe he just deals with status effecting stuff and you don't really realize his results...if you have a big party/large fights it can be hard to remember who did what when.  Personally, it sounds like you have something of a bias against this player.
#22 mock26 Jun 30, 2010 19:14:51	Is the character being a detriment to the group?  In other words, are you repeatedly on the verge of losing battles because he is skulking in the background?  If so then speak to the person/people in the the gropu who know him very well and get their advice on what to do.  if not, however, then let the player be.  I am willing to bet my favorite d20 and lucky d10 that he is very shy and despite his character skulking in the background that he is still having fun.  And if so then that is what is important.
#23 FlashbackJon Jul 01, 2010 17:14:04	I've thought about having my PC harangue this player during combat. Or prod the other PC with a weapon, literally. Definitely do not do this if you don't know the player well.  If you're having trouble figuring out if the issue is IC or OOC, then you guys are not at a point where this would not be misconstrued. That said, I can't figure out what the Wizard could be doing in a game of 4E that makes him seem so non-specifically ineffectual.  Does he just spend the whole encounter at-willing? I can only think of three options here: the player is woefully un-optimized, the player has historically rolled very poorly, or you are not totally clear on what a Wizard's contribution to the party should be.
#24 anchovy_pizza Jul 02, 2010 7:52:02	Thanks for the continued responses and thoughtful feedback. I have recently developed a Wizard myself to see (among other things) what the problem might be, and see how they should play out. I did use Thunderwave, some Magic Missles, and a Sleep spell--all pretty cool. I have seen other Wizards do very impressive things, move around the battlefield, and take chances. It can be a great class, done right. I think the recent posters have articulated some things we've observed, such as an over-reliance on At-Wills, skulking (ie, a preoccupation with keeping the PC safe), a generally reticent player personality, and perhaps a bias based on seeing up-front attackers dealing massive damage and getting bloodied and wondering, what's that person doing? I have not wondered that about every wizard, mind you, just this one. I will have to come back with specific examples, but you've given me a lot to think about and look for. I understand a shy player. My characters may not understand a fellow adventurer who puts his/her personal safety over the lives of everyone else in the party, and I just thought there may be a way to address this in-character.
#25 mock26 Jul 02, 2010 14:35:48	Thanks for the continued responses and thoughtful feedback. I have recently developed a Wizard myself to see (among other things) what the problem might be, and see how they should play out. I did use Thunderwave, some Magic Missles, and a Sleep spell--all pretty cool. I have seen other Wizards do very impressive things, move around the battlefield, and take chances. It can be a great class, done right. I think the recent posters have articulated some things we've observed, such as an over-reliance on At-Wills, skulking (ie, a preoccupation with keeping the PC safe), a generally reticent player personality, and perhaps a bias based on seeing up-front attackers dealing massive damage and getting bloodied and wondering, what's that person doing? I have not wondered that about every wizard, mind you, just this one. I will have to come back with specific examples, but you've given me a lot to think about and look for. I understand a shy player. My characters may not understand a fellow adventurer who puts his/her personal safety over the lives of everyone else in the party, and I just thought there may be a way to address this in-character. Good luck with this and keep us updated! Just remember that this seems to more than likely be a player "problem," and as such trying to solve it in character might not work out well.